Fair use vs GSL - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Fair use vs GSL

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
sigfried_trent
Jun 25, 2008 20:01:27 Background: I publish the Netbook of Feats (www.datadeco.com/nbofeats) which is a free d20 sourcebook for 3.0/3.5 feats. We've been doing the netbook pretty much sicne day 1 of the OGL and SRD and while not always updating we are still active behind the scenes and working on feats.

So the GSL comes along and we find ourselves in a bit of a pickle. We have always prided ourselves on being a "professional" publication even though it is a fan opperation and we don't sell anything (or collect much in the way of donations). We have always stuck to the letter of the law in terms of the OGL and d20 licenses and worked hard at being an exemplar of usign the license properly.

But for us to use the GSL and abide by its rules to the letter and spirit would mean flushing the efforts of all our contributors down the drain just to make a version compatable with 4E using the GSL license.

Reading it over and carefully considering what it has to offer... there is almost nothing of value there beyond using WOTCs D&D logo in select places. Anything with the SRD it explicitly allows could easily be justified by fair use, and fair use would allow a good deal more in many respects.

It is hard to see how anyone who isn't making a buisness of thier work on 4E products would want to sign onto the license. I almost feel that for the sake of our authors and readers I can't sign it as it would put thier work in jepordy.
#2
epochgames
Jun 25, 2008 21:26:40 I don't think anyone can fault you for this. For your model, the GSL is not beneficial. I've always enjoyed the NetBook of feats and hope you do continue to work on those for both 3.5 and future versions. To do so, however, you're absolutely right in that you'll need to follow the fair use laws, unless you could gain permission from WotC in a manner other than the GSL.
#3
ideasmith
Jun 25, 2008 22:24:27 There are rumors of a fan-site policy that might apply here.
#4
epochgames
Jun 25, 2008 23:17:06
There are rumors of a fan-site policy that might apply here.

Not sure what you mean there, Ideasmith. I mean, there are definitely rumors of a fan site policy. It's been announced one is coming out. I personally haven't heard any rumors as to what is going to be contained in that license, but I am far from anything even closely resembling an authority. If you've got some info I have missed, and there are already some rumors floating around as to the regards to the contents/limitations of the fan site policy, please do share. (hmmmm....if this sounds argumentative or derogatory, it's not supposed to...genuine curiosity)

I'm sure that the fan site policy will limit what can and cannot be done on the website for those in compliance, and compliance probably affords you some nifty legalese and maybe a logo to slap up there, and perhaps an official web ring, like White Wolf used to have. That being said, I don't believe any fan site policy could force you to comply and ignore standard fair use laws and practices. Yes, by agreeing to it, you may be giving up some of your options under fair use, just like the GSL, but you are not required to sign it by any means.
#5
ideasmith
Jun 25, 2008 23:45:58
Not sure what you mean there, Ideasmith. I mean, there are definitely rumors of a fan site policy. It's been announced one is coming out. I personally haven't heard any rumors as to what is going to be contained in that license, but I am far from anything even closely resembling an authority. If you've got some info I have missed, and there are already some rumors floating around as to the regards to the contents/limitations of the fan site policy, please do share. (hmmmm....if this sounds argumentative or derogatory, it's not supposed to...genuine curiosity)

I'm sure that the fan site policy will limit what can and cannot be done on the website for those in compliance, and compliance probably affords you some nifty legalese and maybe a logo to slap up there, and perhaps an official web ring, like White Wolf used to have. That being said, I don't believe any fan site policy could force you to comply and ignore standard fair use laws and practices. Yes, by agreeing to it, you may be giving up some of your options under fair use, just like the GSL, but you are not required to sign it by any means.

I was assuming that a fan-site policy might just allow things that neither GSL nor fair-use would allow. Like maybe, just maybe, having both OGL and 4E stuff on the same site. Given the limited info on said fan-site policy, this seems within the realm of possibility.
#6
epochgames
Jun 26, 2008 3:01:49
I was assuming that a fan-site policy might just allow things that neither GSL nor fair-use would allow. Like maybe, just maybe, having both OGL and 4E stuff on the same site. Given the limited info on said fan-site policy, this seems within the realm of possibility.

Ah, gotchya. I can imagine whatever fan site policy they do come up with will require OGL and GSL materials to be mutually exclusive. Only time will tell for sure, though.

In the meantime, to the OP, I think you're best off either avoiding 4E material completely (which would be awful, IMO) or sticking with fair use.
#7
blackzero
Jun 26, 2008 15:28:05
Ah, gotchya. I can imagine whatever fan site policy they do come up with will require OGL and GSL materials to be mutually exclusive. Only time will tell for sure, though.

In the meantime, to the OP, I think you're best off either avoiding 4E material completely (which would be awful, IMO) or sticking with fair use.

This is somewhat tangential to the topic but I would like to commend the work you guys have been doing with the 3.5 netbook. People like you and the person who put out the d20srd.org have made important lasting contributions to my gaming experience.

BlackZero
#8
sigfried_trent
Jun 26, 2008 15:47:14 Thanks for the opinions and kind words, both are much appreciated.

Fair Use + Crossed Fingers is about how I think we will approach things for now with 4E and keep the 3.5 as it is now. We will keep adding to the 3.5 edition so long as we keep getting submissions for it (which we still do).
#9
scribble
Jun 26, 2008 16:06:43 My guess is that the fansite policy will be much more lax in it's legalese. (as it's intended for a crowd not making money off of the use of their product.)

My guess is it will boil down to: "As long as you aren't selling the thing on your fansite, you're not harming our image in some way, or you don't intend to also release the same product in OGL form, using our stuff is cool, and we won't be jerks about it."

I could be vastly wrong... but...

The big issue I see is that WoTC doesn't want the 4e stuff to be easily turned into OGL stuff.
#10
thecasualoblivion
Jun 26, 2008 16:39:28 Last time I checked, you could still play M:tG using a little program called apprentice. If WotC during the days of M:tG Online didn't feel it necessary or possible to smash apprentice, I don't think little guys doing fan made stuff have much to worry about.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sigfried_trent Jun 25, 2008 20:01:27	Background: I publish the Netbook of Feats (www.datadeco.com/nbofeats) which is a free d20 sourcebook for 3.0/3.5 feats. We've been doing the netbook pretty much sicne day 1 of the OGL and SRD and while not always updating we are still active behind the scenes and working on feats. So the GSL comes along and we find ourselves in a bit of a pickle. We have always prided ourselves on being a "professional" publication even though it is a fan opperation and we don't sell anything (or collect much in the way of donations). We have always stuck to the letter of the law in terms of the OGL and d20 licenses and worked hard at being an exemplar of usign the license properly. But for us to use the GSL and abide by its rules to the letter and spirit would mean flushing the efforts of all our contributors down the drain just to make a version compatable with 4E using the GSL license. Reading it over and carefully considering what it has to offer... there is almost nothing of value there beyond using WOTCs D&D logo in select places. Anything with the SRD it explicitly allows could easily be justified by fair use, and fair use would allow a good deal more in many respects. It is hard to see how anyone who isn't making a buisness of thier work on 4E products would want to sign onto the license. I almost feel that for the sake of our authors and readers I can't sign it as it would put thier work in jepordy.
#2 epochgames Jun 25, 2008 21:26:40	I don't think anyone can fault you for this. For your model, the GSL is not beneficial. I've always enjoyed the NetBook of feats and hope you do continue to work on those for both 3.5 and future versions. To do so, however, you're absolutely right in that you'll need to follow the fair use laws, unless you could gain permission from WotC in a manner other than the GSL.
#3 ideasmith Jun 25, 2008 22:24:27	There are rumors of a fan-site policy that might apply here.
#4 epochgames Jun 25, 2008 23:17:06	There are rumors of a fan-site policy that might apply here. Not sure what you mean there, Ideasmith. I mean, there are definitely rumors of a fan site policy. It's been announced one is coming out. I personally haven't heard any rumors as to what is going to be contained in that license, but I am far from anything even closely resembling an authority. If you've got some info I have missed, and there are already some rumors floating around as to the regards to the contents/limitations of the fan site policy, please do share. (hmmmm....if this sounds argumentative or derogatory, it's not supposed to...genuine curiosity) I'm sure that the fan site policy will limit what can and cannot be done on the website for those in compliance, and compliance probably affords you some nifty legalese and maybe a logo to slap up there, and perhaps an official web ring, like White Wolf used to have. That being said, I don't believe any fan site policy could force you to comply and ignore standard fair use laws and practices. Yes, by agreeing to it, you may be giving up some of your options under fair use, just like the GSL, but you are not required to sign it by any means.
#5 ideasmith Jun 25, 2008 23:45:58	Not sure what you mean there, Ideasmith. I mean, there are definitely rumors of a fan site policy. It's been announced one is coming out. I personally haven't heard any rumors as to what is going to be contained in that license, but I am far from anything even closely resembling an authority. If you've got some info I have missed, and there are already some rumors floating around as to the regards to the contents/limitations of the fan site policy, please do share. (hmmmm....if this sounds argumentative or derogatory, it's not supposed to...genuine curiosity) I'm sure that the fan site policy will limit what can and cannot be done on the website for those in compliance, and compliance probably affords you some nifty legalese and maybe a logo to slap up there, and perhaps an official web ring, like White Wolf used to have. That being said, I don't believe any fan site policy could force you to comply and ignore standard fair use laws and practices. Yes, by agreeing to it, you may be giving up some of your options under fair use, just like the GSL, but you are not required to sign it by any means. I was assuming that a fan-site policy might just allow things that neither GSL nor fair-use would allow. Like maybe, just maybe, having both OGL and 4E stuff on the same site. Given the limited info on said fan-site policy, this seems within the realm of possibility.
#6 epochgames Jun 26, 2008 3:01:49	I was assuming that a fan-site policy might just allow things that neither GSL nor fair-use would allow. Like maybe, just maybe, having both OGL and 4E stuff on the same site. Given the limited info on said fan-site policy, this seems within the realm of possibility. Ah, gotchya. I can imagine whatever fan site policy they do come up with will require OGL and GSL materials to be mutually exclusive. Only time will tell for sure, though. In the meantime, to the OP, I think you're best off either avoiding 4E material completely (which would be awful, IMO) or sticking with fair use.
#7 blackzero Jun 26, 2008 15:28:05	Ah, gotchya. I can imagine whatever fan site policy they do come up with will require OGL and GSL materials to be mutually exclusive. Only time will tell for sure, though. In the meantime, to the OP, I think you're best off either avoiding 4E material completely (which would be awful, IMO) or sticking with fair use. This is somewhat tangential to the topic but I would like to commend the work you guys have been doing with the 3.5 netbook. People like you and the person who put out the d20srd.org have made important lasting contributions to my gaming experience. BlackZero
#8 sigfried_trent Jun 26, 2008 15:47:14	Thanks for the opinions and kind words, both are much appreciated. Fair Use + Crossed Fingers is about how I think we will approach things for now with 4E and keep the 3.5 as it is now. We will keep adding to the 3.5 edition so long as we keep getting submissions for it (which we still do).
#9 scribble Jun 26, 2008 16:06:43	My guess is that the fansite policy will be much more lax in it's legalese. (as it's intended for a crowd not making money off of the use of their product.) My guess is it will boil down to: "As long as you aren't selling the thing on your fansite, you're not harming our image in some way, or you don't intend to also release the same product in OGL form, using our stuff is cool, and we won't be jerks about it." I could be vastly wrong... but... The big issue I see is that WoTC doesn't want the 4e stuff to be easily turned into OGL stuff.
#10 thecasualoblivion Jun 26, 2008 16:39:28	Last time I checked, you could still play M:tG using a little program called apprentice. If WotC during the days of M:tG Online didn't feel it necessary or possible to smash apprentice, I don't think little guys doing fan made stuff have much to worry about.