Is there any way for someone who currently runs a Fan Site to get some sort of advance/preview copy, and (hopefully) offer feedback on the direction its moving?
You can create a fansite without one. You just can't use the logos and such and must work within fair-use laws for your fansites ISP country of origin.
Is there any word on the Fan Site Policy yet?
Is there any way for someone who currently runs a Fan Site to get some sort of advance/preview copy, and (hopefully) offer feedback on the direction its moving?
After what happened with the timing for the GSL I will not be committting to a specific time fram for the fan site policy. That's not the answer you want to hear, but there it is.
After what happened with the timing for the GSL I will not be committting to a specific time fram for the fan site policy. That's not the answer you want to hear, but there it is.
Hey as long as one is in the works that good to know as time frames just cause trouble.
You know, I honestly can't help but feel sorry for Lidda in her position now.
Me too. But then I remind myself that I work for a game company! Things could be much worse :D
Me too. But then I remind myself that I work for a game company! Things could be much worse :D
Yeah, you could work for someplace with a decent paycheck and maybe you could get SNEAK ATTACK!
After what happened with the timing for the GSL I will not be committting to a specific time fram for the fan site policy. That's not the answer you want to hear, but there it is.
However, your guess on this subject is probably better than ours.
Maybe the fansite license will be a bit more loose or is going to be even more strict so is taking longer. They also have to think about internet regulations within it and what rights they actually have over things like public domain terms an such....that is my guess.
I hope you understand that WotC isn't trying to deny you the use of public domain words in general.
What they are trying to acomplish is that when you make a D&D4E supplement and mean "Orc" that everyone knows the same thing about that "Orc". That is why you can't redefine "Orc" when you want to use the GSL.
After what happened with the timing for the GSL I will not be committting to a specific time fram for the fan site policy. That's not the answer you want to hear, but there it is.
But how about a progress or status report?
Is it close to done? Half-done? Expected within a month/quarter/half-year? How often should fan-site people check back? Daily/weekly/monthly?
But how about a progress or status report?
Is it close to done? Half-done? Expected within a month/quarter/half-year? How often should fan-site people check back? Daily/weekly/monthly?
Sadly, a legal document doesn't work like that. It could be '88 percent written', then someone in legal could come in and say 'No, this clause means that all of this other stuff is invalid', and the whole thing would have to be started over. So, no progress bar is possible on this stuff.
I just hope its not a mass of legal-ese. Most fansites don't have lawyers on retainer. It would just lead to unintentional mistakes and trouble.
This is true, but I don't see Wizards using the heavy-handed methods of TSR in enforcing a fan site policy. More likely it will be an e-mail to the site owner explaining the infraction and how to resolve the issue. Unitl we actually see anything different I'm giving Wizards the benefit of the doubt on this one.
Really how much can you put on a fansite that a lawyer would not see as infringing?
Do you think every report of a fansite is handled by normal people? I bet it is handed directly to legal and they look at everything based solely on IP ownership.
Did the fansite use a word they are not allowed to?
Lawyers won't look at fair-use first. They will look strictly at legal ownership.
That is the problem.
Also many fansites will incorporate houserules and other things and may wish to provide a character generator.
Imagine a fansite that was PBP forums. While people could use Gleemax, they should not be forced to, but outside of Gleemax how much of a character sheet can you detail for the other players or DM? How much of your character is WotC IP?
I am not as trusting as you as evidence exists of how badly it has been handled in the past, and things aren't looking up now with how WotC has handled current events.
So it isn't really up to Wizards, but the lawyers for WotC, or maybe the lawyers for Hasbro.
As Linae said, it seems to be a never ending cycle where it goes through revisions that make no sense at all because the lawyers don't know a thing about D&D and what eneds to be discussed, they just want to overgeneralize everything.
Hellmute, if Hasbro/Wizards was as much of a demon as you are thinking, there would have been cease and desists flying all over the place already.
Do you think a fansite license will not have a "no character generator" clause?
It is not like you need a license anyway,unless you want to be an official faniste. Whatever that is supposed to mean. Like you need a license from WotC to be an official fan or some crap.
But the point is that needing a license to have a fansite already sounds pretty stupid.
Look at TSR. They sued their fans/customers and where did it get them? A license means you agreed to be allowed to be sued if you accept it for breach of contract and other reasons.
Screw it. Just make your own without some license. with enough litigation there will have to be some law to protect fansites and get something done so these silly things don't waste taxpayers money.
Just the thought of needing a license for osme reason to have a fansite is in itself a damning aspect.
It is not like you need a license anyway,unless you want to be an official faniste. Whatever that is supposed to mean. Like you need a license from WotC to be an official fan or some crap.
But the point is that needing a license to have a fansite already sounds pretty stupid.
Yeah that DOES sound pretty stupid... Which is why it most likely has nothing to do with the ability to have a fansite or be "an official wotskateer..."
It will be a license that allows fans to use the Logos and wording, and SRD stuff just like the GSL.
They'll probably offer some other incentive to that as well.
Look at TSR. They sued their fans/customers and where did it get them? A license means you agreed to be allowed to be sued if you accept it for breach of contract and other reasons.
Or it means you agree to play by a set of terms in return fro some sort of benefit.
Just the thought of needing a license for osme reason to have a fansite is in itself a damning aspect.
Unless it gives permission to use their trademarks and IP in some way.
I honestly don't understand why gamers are always so paranoid, and assume WoTC is out to get them in some way...
How many people will be wholly reproducing 4th eiditon on a fansite?
What are they trying to control being said by a fan?
Is some logo worth the risks?
You can easily have a fansite and use a logo without any license of wotC giving you the OK.
Just look how many websites already are using the GSL logo and I bet none of them agree to the GSL to do so. They are using it under fai-use to illustrate what they are talking about.
Does it mean that their site is official licensed product of D&D, or officially compatible with 4th edition?
No.
Through fair-use the entirety of ANY edition of D&D can be duplicated. Not by a single website, but with enough searching you can reproduct any editions rules through looking acros various sites in the universe that is the internet.
The problem is as you say that some license will give those who agree to it some access to something. What? What is the cost of the access? Be it money, or loss or restriction of other rights, is the cost worth what you are getting.
It isn't really paranoia, but past rearring its head again, and the shift from OGL/STL to GSL seems like something that happened near the end of TSR.
Fair-use.
What about it?
Are you stating people can make fansites based on fair use? Or something else?
How many people will be wholly reproducing 4th eiditon on a fansite?
I don't know? What's this have to do with anything? Yeah wholly reproducing 4e on a website I doubt will be legal with a fansite policy or without.
What are they trying to control being said by a fan?
It's not about control (here's that paranoia again)
It's about information. They'retelling you these are the things that we don't want to see, and will make us upset.
My guess is they will be along the lines of:
Things that cause harm to the brand. (Like making a D&D site dedicated to racism, or excessive porn or soemthing.)
Things that sneak 4e into OGL somehow.
Other things like posting PDFs of their books etc...
Is some logo worth the risks?
What risks? (Again the paranoia bit I was talking about. )
Are you assuming WoTC is out to bait you into doing something to sue you???
You are agreeing that you have the ability to use WoTC's stuff (brand, templates, wording, fonts, maybe even artwork, etc...) and they won't have an issue with it, so long as you follow certain guidelines.
My guess is it won't be hard pressed either.
You can easily have a fansite and use a logo without any license of wotC giving you the OK.
Hence policy and not license.
Here is a list of the types of things we don't want to see people doing on a fansite with our stuff.
I'll also bet that they won't be very Hard edged about it either.
Ok so your site is a fansite, and it has some depictions of elf girls more scantily clad then the official products... Probably won't generate much concern from WoTC.
Your fansite has depictions of full frontal nude elf women being gang raped by orcs bearing nazi schwastika tatoos and signs sayign they hate black people... Probably going to cause WoTC to tell you to stop. (or more clearly remove all D&D logos and product identity.)
Just look how many websites already are using the GSL logo and I bet none of them agree to the GSL to do so. They are using it under fai-use to illustrate what they are talking about.
Illustrating what you are talking about is diferent then putting the D&D logo on your front page along with using their specifically colored/formatted templates to show new powers/ skills/ monsters/ etc...
Does it mean that their site is official licensed product of D&D, or officially compatible with 4th edition?
No.
You're right. But what has this to do with what we're talking about?
The problem is as you say that some license will give those who agree to it some access to something. What? What is the cost of the access? Be it money, or loss or restriction of other rights, is the cost worth what you are getting.
Policy.
Again tt's information.
You're given info on how you can use WoTC's stuff on your fansite without drawing their ire. Which wil most likely amount to:
Don't be a jerk.
It isn't really paranoia, but past rearring its head again, and the shift from OGL/STL to GSL seems like something that happened near the end of TSR.
Only if you assume WoTC is trying to use it to sue anyone and everything. (which seems paranoid) The mere fact that they are putting out a policy seems to be FAR from what TSR did.
WoTC is putting out a policy to show the kinds of things it will be ok with, and the kinds it won't be ok with.
The internet is a big phenomenon that is actually very new. It's not suprising that new ways of dealing with it are constantly appearing. WoTC is finally recognizing they have to protect their image online as well as off.
Some fansite policy/license may have the exact same thing in it.
It isn't paranoia but understanding what may be coming due to what already exists.
I guess all those people saying the GSL had a poison-pill clause in it back in April were all wrong also eh? They were only paranoid right?
Section 6 and/or 11 of the GSL I think have that poison-pill in it, because WotC gets to decide the definition of a "product line" on a case per case basis, and they can change their minds anytime they want.
Check the GSL. There is a content clause to prevnt BoVD and that other mature book that WotC itself made for 3rd edition.
Again why I'm saying I doubt it will be hard pressed.
As long as you're not doing something that actively harms the D&D brand in some way. (Using it to promte your political agenda, your racist agenda, your crazy porn site, etc...) I doubt WoTC will care, or even notice your site.
It's not about saying these are the things you're allowed to do. It's about saying: These are the things that will raise our ire.
Some fansite policy/license may have the exact same thing in it.
Similar, but not a license, just a policy as to what sorts of things will cause them to go into brand protect mode.
It isn't paranoia but understanding what may be coming due to what already exists.
Not an understanding, an assumption. You're assuming WoTC is trying to trap you in some way. They aren't. They're giving out guidelines on how to make a sute using their material that won't cause them to get upset. Seems liek a big boon to me.
I guess all those people saying the GSL had a poison-pill clause in it back in April were all wrong also eh? They were only paranoid right?
"Poison-Pill" is a loaded term. The GSL isn't compatible with the OGL. The GSL also needs to take steps to ensure 4e isn't reverse engineered into the OGL. (as that defeats the purpose of making it not OGL compatible in the first place.)
The paranoia part comes in with the assumption that WoTC put the non compatability thing in there in order to trap other companies.
It's there to protect WoTC. It may be slightly harsher then some (including myself) feel nessisary, but it isn't a trap designed to screw other companies.
Section 6 and/or 11 of the GSL I think have that poison-pill in it, because WotC gets to decide the definition of a "product line" on a case per case basis, and they can change their minds anytime they want.
It gives them the power to protect themselves, and their brand.
It gives them the ability to change the License and not have the offending company flip them the bird and continue doing what they were doing.
Again the paranoia part assumes WoTC designed it so they could trap other companies then screw them.
The GSL already violates the OGL by taking it away which the OGL says CANNOT be done.
So is the GSL even legal? Only if you sign it, just like any agreement to some fansite policy.
BUT, fansites will not have lawyers at every turn like those who are going to use the GSL, which means they need to speak in plain English, and lock the lawyers back in their dark hole like the beasts form hell that they are.
WotC dealing with the fans rather than bringing the dogs out on them might go a lot better than what TSR did.
So legalese will just be ignored and fans will do what they want without caring because of the same problem. They cannot afford lawyers, and Company A will not just say it in plain English.
You can't include these things on your website:
Item A
Item B
Item C
You can't have this sort of content:
Type A
Type B
Type C
You can have a monster template in the form of an image, you can't have a monster template in the form of an image...to show a stats block of your home-made monster....
When you invoke a legal department to discuss things with your fans first off, you have already put them on the defensive because your legal department is in attack mode and already acting offensively towards the fans.
God forbid they compile some zipped files that MUST exist on your site to be used under the policy. They better pay for advertising space just like anywhere else if they want that!
Many places even give logos for use on fansites so they get the free advertisement!
Place this banner ad on your fansite if you want to...aka free banner ads for this company without paying for the landscaping/real estate!
The GSL already violates the OGL by taking it away which the OGL says CANNOT be done.
The GSL does not violate the OGL. They are two completely seperate licenses that cover two completely different sets of information.
What you are essentially saying is 'since there were traps in the GSL, there will be traps in all licenses and policies of Wizards'
This is essentially saying that everyone is a murderer since some people murder.
Edit> Side note, GSL 6.1 deals with companies who are currently publishing D20 or other OGL material who wish to convert said product to 4e (referance 1 of OGL in GSL, 6.2 You agree not to dual publish with OGL and 4E materal. 6.3 You agree that if you do Wizards has the right to terminate your license). None of which screams 'trap Trap TRAP!' to me, it actually sounds like pretty standard use clause.
If it wasn't a trap, then why even include the OGL or mention in the GSL.
BEcause they are two seperate licenses. 4e is NOT published under the OGL, and they don't want it published under the OGL. There are some products published under the OGL which publishers may wish to now publish for 4e. To do so, they cannot also publish under the OGL.
The GSL already violates the OGL by taking it away which the OGL says CANNOT be done.
It does no such thing. The OGL is still alive and kicking, and will be forever more.
So is the GSL even legal? Only if you sign it, just like any agreement to some fansite policy.
Not at all the same.
One is legally binding. The other is info as to what they consider acceptable.
My personal policyis that if you pee on the toilet seat, (and don't at least clean it up) I will consider you an a-hole. Does that mean you are legally bound not to pee on the toilet seat? Not at all. But if you don't want me to consider you an a-hole, then you might not want to pee on the seat.
If we were to sign a license (contract) with me stating you swear never to pee on the toilet seat, or if you do you will pay me 10 dollars as a clean up fee. Now you are legally bound.
BUT, fansites will not have lawyers at every turn like those who are going to use the GSL, which means they need to speak in plain English, and lock the lawyers back in their dark hole like the beasts form hell that they are.
Which is why they will be two seperate entities. Policy will probably be much broader, and more a list of the things that will really raise their hackles. (and probably common sense type things.)
WotC dealing with the fans rather than bringing the dogs out on them might go a lot better than what TSR did.
What dogs??? Again the paranoia that WoTC is scheming some sort of attack plan, as opposed to giving us a road map...
So legalese will just be ignored and fans will do what they want without caring because of the same problem. They cannot afford lawyers, and Company A will not just say it in plain English.
Since we haven't actually seen the policy yet, so we don't really know how plain english it needs to be. My guess is it will be pretty plain english.
Again I'm also guessing for the most part unless you're douing something way out of the bounds (and you probably know it already) you're going to be fine. And even if you're not, you'll probably get a letter saying "Hey man, stop using our stuff if you want to have a site dedicated to X"
When you invoke a legal department to discuss things with your fans first off, you have already put them on the defensive because your legal department is in attack mode and already acting offensively towards the fans.
Only if the fans are being paranoid, and assuming it's offensive. They're giving you a roadmap. Info. Information is priceless.
God forbid they compile some zipped files that MUST exist on your site to be used under the policy. They better pay for advertising space just like anywhere else if they want that!
Huh?
Many places even give logos for use on fansites so they get the free advertisement!
Place this banner ad on your fansite if you want to...aka free banner ads for this company without paying for the landscaping/real estate!
Oh no!
No one ever said the forthcoming Fan Site Policy will be a license or that it will have anything to do with the GSL, OGL or otherwise.
YAY clarifications!
As little as it is that sentence does speak in volume. If nothing other than someone is saying something that actually knows something about the FSP.
No one ever said the forthcoming Fan Site Policy will be a license or that it will have anything to do with the GSL, OGL or otherwise.
No, but it could have everything to do with SNEAK ATTACK!
...
That should be old by now.. but.. it really isn't SNEAK ATTACK!
20+ days since the last post on this thread. Almost two months since launch.
Does WotC even care about FanSites?
People are just going post whatever they want and revise when the policy is released, but once something is released online it never goes away...
You know, I honestly can't help but feel sorry for Lidda in her position now.
Sadly, given some of the **** she's had to deal with over the past few years, this probably seems like a birthday present.
Sadly, given some of the **** she's had to deal with over the past few years, this probably seems like a birthday present.
Well, to be honest, I think she should find another job... :S
Unfortuantely it's pretty obvious that WotC neither has the time nor the ability to deal with fan-sites at the moment. They're busy imploding. :S
If they burst into flames from it I wouldn't even make water on them to put them out.
It should not take this long if the higher-ups had planned anything out rather than rushing it.
Simply the most important thing to start a fansite would need to know what logo they can use, and what string of text to denote the site is not official and the logo is used without permission and is not a threat to WotC copyrights or IP, or that the logo is used with limited permission for the fansite.
That is the first thing and version 1 of a fansite to start with, then people could at least have the fansite logo policy to work with.
I don't blame the people making the policies for use, but blame the people that in the past year decided to try to do too many things at once and having them all screwed up due to lack of manpower to get any one of them done correctly.
I don't think they have forgotten, but need to put out the kitchen fire that was Gleemax and bury the lame duck in the yard first.
It should not be long now that gleemax has freed up personnel before things start rolling out in better and more timely fashion since there are now people able to get things done that are not tied up with the gleemax fiasco.
It should not be long now that gleemax has freed up personnel before things start rolling out in better and more timely fashion since there are now people able to get things done that are not tied up with the gleemax fiasco.
It sounds like Gleemax will still be eating up manpower as they suddenly have to shut it down without taking the forums and other services with it.
Suddenly, there's probably more people working on Gleemax than before, at least for the next two months.
Simply the most important thing to start a fansite would need to know what logo they can use, and what string of text to denote the site is not official and the logo is used without permission and is not a threat to WotC copyrights or IP, or that the logo is used with limited permission for the fansite.
More than that.
What about sites devoted to particular settings?
Can, say, a Dragonlance site:
a) update the original/older adventures?
b) update famous PCs as 4e PCs?
c) update famous NPCs as monsters?
d) make new rules for old 2e/3e mechanic?
e) make new races/classes?
Right now there's a surge of people making Wizard of High Sorcerer paragon paths, Moon Magic rules, knighthood feats, and kender.
And when the pdfs and webpages start coming out they're never going to go away.
This is especially important for dedicated fans who need to know if they should even start writing supplements.
It's one thing to spend hours working on rules/updates for your own amusement or campaign, it's another to spend the time working on something to share with a fan community.
Quite simply: the longer WotC waits, the more time, energy, and sheer work people will put into fan-products and more more furious they will be that they cannot share (assuming WotC puts out a FanSite policy that's as restrictive as the GSL).
After what happened with the timing for the GSL I will not be committting to a specific time fram for the fan site policy. That's not the answer you want to hear, but there it is.
Oh cool, an actual licensing person. Hi =)
Can you answer this DDI question?
-----
Yes, this is possible. Dungeon Builder files and D&D Game Table adventure files can be saved locally and then distributed to friends or other community members. The official adventure files (from modules or magazines) files will be loaded directly from our servers.
Q: What are the Terms of Use and distribution going to be for those player-made maps and adventures? Will full copyright and control be retained by the creators, or is WotC going to set limits on distribution and publication (non-profit only? GSL required?), or even claim perpetual license to do as they wish with them?
What about all the other user-created material to be saved on accounts? Backgrounds? PC names? Custom magic items?
In short, will our work be ours, or yours?
What about all the other user-created material to be saved on accounts? Backgrounds? PC names? Custom magic items?
In short, will our work be ours, or yours?
Well, if the terms of use of the forums are any indication, you'll retain ownership but also grant WotC a royalty-free license to allow them to do what they want with it.
Well, if the terms of use of the forums are any indication, you'll retain ownership but also grant WotC a royalty-free license to allow them to do what they want with it.
Thanks, but I've already heard the Community Interceptors' Crib Sheet answer. I'm actually looking for official clarification.
More than that.
What about sites devoted to particular settings?
I would hope they would jsut let it rot and disable the gleemax areas and go back to them later. Whomever still thinks it can be salvaged so deleting it all, as many wish they would do, does not seem like something they would do.
Also hopefully WotC was not so stupid as to not make a backup of the forums structure from before in order to perform a rollback in the case of an emergency.
While the past years worth of disorganization brought by G_Z at the orders of WotC_Stockley, may be lost, at least the important information should be easily enough to restructure to bring the forums back to working status.
Honestly online forums are about the easiest type of website to have as they are really so low maintenance.
As for the settings fansites, I would have to say they can exist under any previous license that hasn't expired. Do you really need the 4th edition license just to use the Realms in a fansite? Does one not already exist that would allow you to use it?
The main thing, aging, I would think would be a logo and a few other pieces of imagery to denote it either an "Official" fansite, or an allowed "Unofficial" fansites, so things do not escalate into that which transpired over the HP Lexicon and its data being lost due to rash actions from the ISP/webhost.
Also there is a ral easy way to use the logos with such a disclaimer and nothing much WotC could do unless they are so bored to send C&D orders to hosting sites and risk potential losses over a fansites court appearance and as well fan loss over attacking a fan in the first place.
So you really don't need a license unless you are wanting to use something you already know that would be too close and personal to WotC IP, unless you are that afraid of the pale white aging men hidden in the basement in Renton whose cages are cleaned once a day if lucky like the ravenous animals that all lawyers are.
I would much prefer to have a fansite myself with my own world rather than one dedicated to a published world. Without some poison-pill filled or public domain claiming license then the fansite author would retain copyright to their own created world so that not even WotC could do much to try to take the ideas legally.
So it really comes down to what people would want out of their fansite, and can they get by for a while with just a logo stating that this fansite is officially allowed to use X imagery from D&D 4th edition. As, or course, they would not make any license for fansites for ANY older editions at this point as far as I could tell.
Thanks, but I've already heard the Community Interceptors' Crib Sheet answer. I'm actually looking for official clarification.
Brutal honesty is hurry the heck up and wait. The official clarifications when they come at all are after long time periods, by VCLs, by WotC Forum staff, the big O, and seldom by people who actually pertain to the situation or presenting a solution.