The German publisher of D&D 4E, Feder & Schwert ("Feather & Sword") has just declared that they'll no longer publish any D&D 4E products.
http://www.feder-und-schwert.com/news.php?id=138
This can be translated roughly as follows:
We wish to inform you, that from 01.01.2009, no further D&D RPG products will be published in our house. Dungeon Master's Handbook 4E will thus be the last D&D RPG title published by Feder & Schwert, concluding the trilogy of core rulebooks.
This step gives us the freedom to concentrate on our own novel series, our products from the Warhammer universe (Warhammer Fantasy RPG and Warhammer 40.000) and new projects we will inform you about soon.
I'm not too surprised they didn't keep up with importing 4e, but I'm always sorry when RPGs, as a whole, fail to take on in other parts of the world. I hope their other material is doing better.
In any case, the decision by F&S was on VERY short notice. Apparently, the guys from F&S didn't know they were canceling D&D 4E 1-2 weeks before making their statement (27th Nov).
As a side note, German D&D 4E isn't selling too well as it seems. Most D&D 4E enthusiasts buy English books as they get released sooner (and in a wider variety), an effect that is strengthened by the strong Euro (you can get the whole English D&D 4E gift set for about 32,– Euro, while the German Player's Handbook 4E alone(!) costs about 38,– Euro!
http://forum.dnd-gate.de/index.php/topic,21175.210.html
It appears the decision to quit the license contract was made by Hasbro/WotC, not F&S. He give some hints that the decision and it's timing are very damaging to F&S, as it gives them very little time (until March 2009) to sell their remaining D&D4 products.
Tough thing.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=17364673&postcount=35
Also, with only the three core books, it's certainly possible to 'play', but it severely limits the long term viability of the game line, if no future supplements are forthcoming. Better to cut your losses, and stick with supported systems, in German language.
That means: D&D4 will -not- be playable for new players looking for German rulebooks (unless, of course, you're willing to spend a month's pay on eBay).
D&D is a very small niche game in Germany behind Vampire, Shadowrun and of course DSA (The Black Eye). Also, as English is more or less mandatory in the german school system the few D&D players out there will likely get English books instead of waiting months for the translation..
Also, as English is more or less mandatory in the german school system the few D&D players out there will likely get English books instead of waiting months for the translation..
One of the factors making the translation business a tough one, I think. I didn't buy any German translations since Shadowrun 2nd Ed (which had some really horrible translation mistakes), and all my D&D3.0/3.5 books are in English.
That isn't true for the rest of my party or the general gaming community, though. Currently, D&D is a niche game in Germany. Without a German translation, it will lose even more market share. This will hurt WotC in the long run - although Germany is a difficult market for RPGs, it's still the world's third largest economy (behind the USA and Japan). In the long term, that might be quite a loss, I think. Video game licenses, for example, will suffer from the brand not being popular in Germany, which is a great market for videos games.
I don't think that there will be another german 4E license.
I'm not certain about that.
The really strange thing is: Why didn't WotC let continue F&S their license? Licensing out D&D doesn't cost WotC a dime*, F&S takes all the risk, and WotC gains from their brand being kept alive, possibly even expanding in Germany.
Quitting the license makes little sense in my eyes except for four possible reasons:
- Maintaining the license DOES have some inherent cost, e. g. checking that the license taker does his work right.
- Intentions to give the license to somebody else.
- Intentions to do the translations themselves.
- Intentions to sell the whole D&D brand to a third party, and trimming the legal/licensing fat to make the deal sweeter/easier.
*Except maybe if customers buy the German version instead of the original one IF WotC doesn't earn as much from the licensed work as if selling it themselves. This possible loss should be more than outweighed by increased overall sales, however.
Leichenreiter, there's no need for rudeness - we all have our opinions, and we all have the right to express them. Please refrain from this sort of rude comment again. I don't want to report people to administrators needlessly, so I'll thank you to self moderate, in future posts.
Also, with only the three core books, it's certainly possible to 'play', but it severely limits the long term viability of the game line, if no future supplements are forthcoming. Better to cut your losses, and stick with supported systems, in German language.
Don't let it get to you. He's German. They are a rude sort. I used to have to live with them. ;)
Don't let it get to you. He's German. They are a rude sort.
*drinks a gulp of rabbit-blood* Oh yes, we are rude... and rough... and I kill little kittens in my free time!
And btw: all americans have a little *****... in other words: can we let these crap prejudices, please?
[ ] drink beer
[ ] eat chocolade
[ ] eat Sauerkraut
[ ] eat sausage
[ ] invade Poland
[ ] be thorough
[ ] wear Lederhosen
[ ] dance the Schuhplattler
[ ] listen to Beethoven
[ ] listen to Rammstein
[ ] listen to David Hasselhof
[ ] race my superior car on the Autobahn
[ ] build even better car to drive even faster
[ ] buy at Walmart
[ ] buy US made car
[ ] be blonde and 7 feet tall
[ ] meet my Werwolf buddies
[ ] speak with a Russian accent
[ ] build cuckoo clock
[ ] hail our current chancellor Hitler
[ ] invade US territory
[ ] have no humor
[ ] live in a timbered house on a cobblestone street in a romantic mountain village
[ ] fly in a Zeppelin
[ ] sort garden gnome collection
[ ] drive to US territory with my Volkswagen
[ ] join the US in an unjust war
[ ] invent complex taxation system
[ ] visit the Berlin Wall, dividing Germany and China
[ ] visit the other Berlin Wall, separating North and South Korea. Or Korea and Germany. Didn't really quite get that.
[ ] taunt Americans for being uneducated
[X] do something they just wouldn't have expected.
Hm... I think I'll tell an anecdote from a RPG session:
Female NPC during intercourse with PC: "A terrible curse lies upon me... I can either be beautiful at night, and continue to be your lover, but look ugly during the day, so that nobody else will like me. Or I can look beautiful during the day, so that I'll be loved and respected by all, and look ugly in the night, so that nobody would touch me. Tell me, lover, what should I choose?"
PC: *thinks for a moment*
PC: "Well, everybody's got his problems."
PC: *continues*
That doesn't help people who like D&D 4E of course.
I agree that most German RPG players are fluent in English (in ze one vay or ze oddar, sometimes leading to increadibly funny pronaunziashionns and "Denglisch" (or Engman) crossbreeds)) and some (including myself) will continue playing D&D 4E anyway – BUT
While it is entirely possible to play D&D with only the three core books, please remember that the third one hasn't been released YET!
So, from an aspiring roleplayer's point of view, esp. if he prefers to play in German/use German material, WHY should he start playing D&D 4E? He knows the line has been canceled in German BEFORE he can even buy all three books.
Sure, there will be those like me who have bought the German Player's Handbook in August, have preordered and received the German Monster Manual in October/November and who are currently waiting to receive their preordered German Game Master's Handbook ... but anyone NOT already in possession of the first two books is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to buy the third.
The sad thing is: I was really looking forward to 2009, as I expected that when all the core books are available there may be some new D&D 4E players in Germany.
Way I see it now, D&D may become a system even more exotic than it already is, esp. since German roleplayers are losing the confidence in German publishers to continue game lines beyond the first 3 to 10 books.
Leaving the option to play DSA (The Dark Eye). Duh. (Don't get me wrong, it's not that I hate The Dark Eye. I just prefer a more "heroic" and simpler/faster game at present and leave discussions of all possible uses of cooking and sewing skills and the joy of playing out a 4-hour-stroll through the town square market to ... others).
PS: @Just_Some_Evil_Wizard: You forgot "Drive my BMW or Mercedes at breakneck speed over the Autobahn"
[ ] race my superior car on the Autobahn
PS: @Just_Some_Evil_Wizard:
[ ] be blonde and have blue eyes
[ ] listen to Volksmusik (e.g. Heino)
I do hate DSA.
I hated 3.5
I hate DSA
I hate that crap.
I personally hate the "15th century germany with magic vomited over it
*sigh* What would Yoda say...
*gives a bone to his Schäferhund and continues to hum the Walkürenritt, as it's appropriate for a tall, blond giant with steel-blue eyes like him*
And I'll go back to my russian pal with my brown eyes and hair which are all not super-german ;P
Psst! No need to shatter well-deserved prejudices!
*goes back to barking orders, rolling his Rrrrrs like there's no tomorrow*
Did not!
Upps. My mistake.
On topic: That the French were faster in translating the books comes from the fact that they have a bigger enterprise, which in turn comes from the fact that they (a) do have a larger RPG community in General (which may be linked to the wider acceptance of Comic Art in France, as some have speculated) and (b) don't like reading/playing/using the English language and prefer French books (so sales figures aren't cut by D&D enthusiasts buying English books).
F&S did a good job (apart from the fact that yes, they should have translated Keep first and yes, their marketing was weak to nonexistent) – the price situation is not their fault at all. They HAVE to sell the books at the stated price due to high production costs (versus lower number of printed books) and the "Buchpreisbindung" here in Germany. Add to this the weak Dollar (or strong Euro, whatever you prefer) and you get a scenario of Doom, even without the "occasional" (*cough, cough*) die-hard D&D 3.5 slash Pathfinder fanboys in G.
For F&S, the situatzion spells doom: They had to declare discontinuation of German D&D even before launch of the third core book, and they have to sell EVERYTHING until March 2009, including the Game Master's Handbook which isn't printed yet. After that, they HAVE to STOP selling (by WotC contract), leaving them with books they can either give away for free, or burn (burning will be cheaper for them).
As a side note, German D&D 4E isn't selling too well as it seems. Most D&D 4E enthusiasts buy English books as they get released sooner (and in a wider variety), an effect that is strengthened by the strong Euro (you can get the whole English D&D 4E gift set for about 32,– Euro, while the German Player's Handbook 4E alone(!) costs about 38,– Euro!
That were quite good reasons for 4e not to sell well. Other good reasons were, that a) no adventures were sold and that b) it took the german publisher quite some time to complete the translation. The last Corebook (the DMG) was published this very week, at last. Seriously how good did they expect the german PHB to sell?
From my experience there are quite some fans of D&D that wait for the german corebooks to be complete (or at least playable) before they beginn to buy it. With Keep on the Shadowfell, the german PHB would have at least a little value, but without that and other vital parts of the rules, namely the DMG, could they really expect to sell 4e at all? IMHO they could not. Justifying the cancellation of the line with bad sales before the german DMG even hit the stores, would be a true non-fiction Wall Banger.
On topic: That the French were faster in translating the books comes from the fact that they have a bigger enterprise, which in turn comes from the fact that they (a) do have a larger RPG community in General (which may be linked to the wider acceptance of Comic Art in France, as some have speculated) and (b) don't like reading/playing/using the English language and prefer French books (so sales figures aren't cut by D&D enthusiasts buying English books).
Nevertheless the prices for the French edition come as a surprise to me. Some ten years ago, the prices for French RPG books were much higher compared to German books. Speaking with French gamers gave me the idea that French people had no problems with accepting those prices.
... the price situation is not their fault at all. They HAVE to sell the books at the stated price due to high production costs (versus lower number of printed books) and the "Buchpreisbindung" here in Germany.
While your assesment of the higher production costs is true, you can't blame the "Buchpreisbindung" (fixed sales price), as it is completely voluntary. No publisher is obliged to use this instrument of an ancient economy.
Dropping the "Buchpreisbindung" only would affect bookshops, who are used to single order books, get them delivered on the next day and don't have to worry about calculating prices.
Huldvoll
Baron von Bomberg
Wizards is hiring German translators?
*raises hand*
Only two people from my after work RPG group want to switch back. We got a whole bunch of new players, and most people "love 4th edition" :D
I wasn't very happy with the German translation. The intresting thing is that they figured out awesome translations for the really difficult terms, but missed the mark by translating terms word by word which could have better been translated by meaning. (e.g. translating warlord with "Kriegsherr" instead of "Feldherr")
I don't know if that was because WotC wanted them to this, then they are indeed totally innocent.
However, I only have the German PHB and all my friends use the English books, so there is one German PHB compared to a total of about 20+ English books in my possession and the possession of the people I play with.
It is not difficult to imagine that if English books sell 20 times better in Germany than the German books, that the license is in trouble...
...leaving them with books they can either give away for free, or burn (burning will be cheaper for them).
Burning books? Again?!?
It's sad that the logistics surrounding translations keep the products from some people but like you guys said the english language books are available.
It's kinda a sad commentary on the US education system that the German system is good enough that you guys can play using English lnaguage books but so few of us here can say the same. Umglaublich.
Just wanted to say hallo! My mother is from the Stuttgart area so I try and say hi to German gamers as I run into them.
I was one of the few guys in my local area who knew about the Germany sourcebook for Shadowrun before it came out in english. That game never reallty dropped off the map like it has here in the states. Sad cause Shadowrun was awesome (although Catalyst is trying hard on their comeback).
the only reason I'd go and buy a german one is because some in my group are not that fit on english.
and even that doesn't help much cause who is NOT using the original english terms at the game table? :D
it really doesn't hurt to learn some more english - hey, another good side effect of D&D!
apart from that, english makes it sound less childish! ;)
AKW
It's kinda a sad commentary on the US education system that the German system is good enough that you guys can play using English lnaguage books but so few of us here can say the same.
To be fair... English is much, much easier to learn than German, and there's more opportunity to use and practice it due to cultural dominance of the USA and GB (*points to Monty Python picture posted here*).
And now for something completely different:
interesting discussion.
It's sad that the logistics surrounding translations keep the products from some people but like you guys said the english language books are available.
It's kinda a sad commentary on the US education system that the German system is good enough that you guys can play using English lnaguage books but so few of us here can say the same. Umglaublich.
Just wanted to say hallo! My mother is from the Stuttgart area so I try and say hi to German gamers as I run into them.
In my experience, the Germans' playing with English books English skill is something to brag about in many cases. Quite a lot of them understand the gist of what the text is about, but are very insecure about the details. Which, with crunchy texts, may lead to unexpected results.
Also, the observation is lopsided. Of course the Germans perusing this and other boards about D&D or RPGs in general have decent English skills. But we have a big silent majority of Germans who don't do so or are even ousted from roleplaying because of the lack of a German version of D&D.
Huldvoll
Baron von Bomberg
The last Corebook (the DMG) was published this very week, at last. Seriously how good did they expect the german PHB to sell?
You obviously weren't around for the 1st Ed releases. DMG came out MUCH later than the MM & PHB & they sold like crazy...
Invalid reason for poor sales of the PHB.
In my experience, the Germans' playing with English books English skill is something to brag about in many cases. Quite a lot of them understand the gist of what the text is about, but are very insecure about the details.
And in my experience, this describes the quality of translated RPG texts, rather than players' grasp of English texts. I can't say anything about D&D3 translations, as I've stopped buying translated RPG books before D&D3 came out.
Some examples of "cool" translations I've encountered:
- Magic Missile = "Magische Rakete", which means "Magic Rocket" (rocket as a Scud or Sidewinder). Apparently translated by somebody without understanding of the text, genre or convention.
- For those who know Shadowrun: Wired Reflexes were translated as "Reflexbooster" in Germany. When Boosted Reflexes were introduced with the Street Samurai Catalogue, the a very similar term was already used in the German transaltion. The publishers thus chose to call them "Verstärkte Reflexe", meaning "improved reflexes". When SR3 came out, the new translation guy apparently didn't know about this, and mistook boosted reflexes for Reflexboosters. Understandable, but obvious mistake.
- Again, from Shadowrun (ShadowTech): Strength => Schnelligkeit, which means Quickness. Man, this bioware muscle replacement was good in the German edition.
- Submachinegun = Maschinengewehr = Machine Gun.
The same "professional" quality can be found in movie translations.
- In the US version of Terminator II, the terminator explains to Connor that he is able to adapt and learn because he has a "neural CPU". In the German version, this becomes a "neutral CPU". "Made in Switzerland", or what is that supposed to mean!?
- Computer chips made of "Silikon" = silicone (as opposed to silicon) are an absolute classic. I'd guess a 50% error rate in movies.
- The Millenium Falcon is the "Rasender Falke" = "Speeding Falcon" in German.
- Light sabres are light swords in German. This actually makes more sense, as they aren't shaped like sabres at all, but fixing "mistakes" in the original is, in my humble opinion, not the purpose of translations.
Even the German Law has translation errors nowadays.
- The EU made a law about "consumer goods", which was translated into "Verbrauchsgüter" in German - this, however, means consumable goods. I think you can imagine the confusion this causes.
The weirdest, most glorious of all translations, however, was in a computer game: No One Lives Forever. In the German version, you could find a note talking about a hostile intelligence agency having developed a "schlafender Luftagent", which would re-translate to "sleeping aerial spy" (or maybe "sleeping spy made of air"). What a wondrous invention that would be! Floating through the sky, slumbering comfortably among birds and clouds, he'd spy on us from above, not unlike an angel or even god himself.
The real thing was, of course, a "sleeping air agent" ("Schlafgas" in German), which some idiot translated word by word without understanding that it's a composed expression.
Most RPG players I know can cite dozens of these funny mistakes, and thus have little faith in translations, which probably makes business very tough for publishers of translated works. In a complex system like D&D3, I wouldn't expect any publisher not to make at least some mistakes. This would take away much of this very clear and coherent system. So, I think it's better to have to look up the occasional word - bad for the German publisher's business.
Bad overall quality of translations => low expectation of quality from informed consumers => bad business even for maybe excellent individual businesses.
Would that we were all so lucky.
The same "professional" quality can be found in movie translations.
Actually, I am even more concerned and angered by bad movie translations, as I expect them to have a higher quality in general (I can understand that a small German publisher may not have access to the best translators, but what is the excuse of the movie industry?).
Also, I HATE IT HATE IT HATE IT when people who pose as professional translators don't have a CLUE about the German titles for English TV series or other cultural items.
Every night, you cann hear someone in a sitcom talk about "Das Kleine Haus in der Prärie" (Little House on the Prairie). The title may be translated correctly – just that this TV show was named "Unsere kleine Farm" (Our little Farm) in Germany.
Another time, someone will talk about "Smurfs" (saying the exact English word in a German show) because the translator wasn't able to identify Smurfs as Schlümpfe.
Same with comic books: Suddenly, a protagonist's name gets changed because the new translator picks his own translation instead of taking one lousy look at the preceding issue.
Or take Star Wars: A New Hope. In the first Star Wars movie, the Emperor is called the "Kaiser". Which makes sense, given the strong "WW feel" of the whole saga. Then suddenly, everyone just calls him the "Imperator". Both translations may be correct, but changing them in between episodes is always ... irritating.
Now don't get me wrong: It's not like I'm entering frenzy when I hear something like that. But still it's an annoyance, and I just can't figure why if I can identify such obvious mistakes, then why can't someone who makes a living knowing exactly that stuff?
Like Alice Cooper says/sing's: "It's the little things".
I just can't figure why if I can identify such obvious mistakes, then why can't someone who makes a living knowing exactly that stuff?
Identifying the mistakes of others is always easier than not making any yourself. Example: traffic accidents. Identifying an accident and knowing what went wrong is much easier than not making that very mistake yourself.
The question is correct in principle, though. It's sad to see that people who don't know their stuff are hired to translate multi-million-dollar projects. What does the pure translation (without synchro) cost in comparison to all the other details that are worked on in modern movies? They're saving money on the wrong end, I say.
With RPG products, the costs of translation are comparatively higher, I suppose. But a bad translation hurts customer satisfaction (and thereby business) even more.
WotC wanted to earn more money but could not find a new german publisher.
No more D&D in Germany.
The reason for the canceled licence is unfolded.
--> WotC wanted more money from an alternative german publisher. They canceled the contract with the old publisher. But no one in germany wanted to aquire the new and costly licence.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4758780-post34.html
Greetings, Findulas
Scott Rouse(WOTC_ScottR), can you tell us something new on the german license? The best would be if the new licensee translates all books and der content of the insider.
Greetings from Germany,
Bernd
They still got everything under control. With digital publishing of the books inside insider, these could be translated, too. They could even print it on demand.
The language slip _ist_ the reason why I want a german D&D
Findulas
Perhaps we can get awesome here, too.
Scott Rouse(WOTC_ScottR), can you tell us something new on the german license? The best would be if the new licensee translates all books and der content of the insider.
Greetings from Germany,
Bernd
According to the biggest german D&D site the negotiations with the last german publisher big enough to handle something like D&D failed. So now either Hasbro Germany does it themselves or german D&D is dead. Link
We'll keep you posted when we have more to share.
Thanks
We are still in negotiations with a potential new publisher. I wish these things could happen faster as Germany is a key RPG market but I am sorry I don't have anything new to share at this time.
We'll keep you posted when we have more to share.
Thanks
Well, WotC won't ever get a licensee if they don't correct their sales expectations downwards to match the reality of the german RPG market who's not a "key market", not with only 800.000 RPG gamers here at all, let aside that D&D 4E players are just a minority.
I'll bet they won't even find a licensee.
Whatever, just a remark on my behalf.
Well, WotC won't ever get a licensee if they don't correct their sales expectations downwards to match the reality of the german RPG market who's not a "key market", not with only 800.000 RPG gamers here at all, let aside that D&D 4E players are just a minority.
I'll bet they won't even find a licensee.
Did someone quote any expected numbers, anywhere? This would seem highly unlikely.
Nevertheless, I agree that the best option for WotC would be to take matters in their own hands and start to grow the German market themselves. I serously doubt that any prospective licensee - at least any prospective licensee I can imagine as being interested in the property - has the money, the reach, and the market power to set things in motion over here.
Huldvoll
Baron von Bomberg
Well, WotC won't ever get a licensee if they don't correct their sales expectations downwards to match the reality of the german RPG market who's not a "key market", not with only 800.000 RPG gamers here at all, let aside that D&D 4E players are just a minority.
I'll bet they won't even find a licensee.
800.000 ? I think that's about 20x too high. The best selling P&P (The Dark Eye) counts a supplement as a huge success if it sells 20,000 copies in it's first year (adventures if they manage 3,000 sales) and it has a market share of app. 50%
So I think 40,000 - 50,000 is a much closer estimation of the German P&P RPG market (of which D&D has app. 20% - 25% which already includes the people playing with the english books and thus are no customers for German D&D books)
Here's a statement about the German P&P market by someone who really knows the market (in German language)
Did someone quote any expected numbers, anywhere? This would seem highly unlikely.
I haven't seen any official statement about WotC's demand, however the publisher who had the license until recently (Feder&Schwert) stated that they would have liked to continue but couldn't reach an agreement with WotC because of unrealistic demand regarding sales figures which seems to be exactly the same reason why negotiations with annother German publisher (Prometheus) also failed
I'm not even sure there are so few gamers, really. It's just that german RPG's do not sell all that supremely, as said prior.
I have to disagree. DSA is the big fish in the german pond. No matter which studie you look at, they all pin DSA at app. 50% market share with no other system even close to challenge it's position (yet every attempt to localize DSA and introduce it into annother country's market failed)
Why are there so few P&P gamers in Germany?
Are 40,000 really "so few"? I mean WotC estimated the number of D&D players (all edition) to be app. 6,000,000 worldwide. Given that on a worldwide scale D&D said to be the big fish (with estimates up to 70%) that doesn't give us many P&P players worldwide. Even if we assume that D&D has only 50%, that's ~12,000,000 P&P players worldwide - not that many if put against the total population (even if only against the population of the countries that make sense to be count in such a comparison, just counting USA, Germany, France, GB we already break 500,000,000)
In my opinion 400.000 pen&paper-roleplaying-gamers is the realistic number. And if you believe or not - I am right. :D
The german market is roughly about 130.000 to 655.000 gamers, according to Jugendszenen.com (studies about the german youth-scene). http://www.jugendszenen.com/Rollenspieler/Facts-&-Trends.html
In my opinion 400.000 pen&paper-roleplaying-gamers is the realistic number. And if you believe or not - I am right. :D
Actually this figure includes CCG and CRPG players, it's not about P&P only. As far as just P&P players are concerned I rather trust Frank Heller's estimation since he has worked in the German P&P industry for ~ a decade and for his article not only called on his own experience with his publisher (Pegasus) but also talked to the COOs of the other major publishers in Germany.
Actually this figure includes CCG and CRPG players, it's not about P&P only.
We can argue about the CCG-Players, but CRPG-Player are much more. Remember Germany has 80.000.000 Inhabitants and the german language-area is about 105.000.000 persons.
However jugendszene still gives no information on how they arrived on their conclusion. In the end you may chose to believe whatever you want, however Frank is the guy responsible for Cthulhu and he has personally talked to the COOs of the publishers responsible for DSA, Shadowrun and the ex-german-pubslisher of D&D 3.5/4e and WoD so I think that he has a sound database
Anyway, lets just hope that they find a new german publisher, because in the end all sources agree in so far that the market is shrinking and aging and young people are hard to recruit if everything is in english
From the gamers I know most do the same: Order from Amazon and get english original works, because german "translations" often include some Foo~ Up either intentional or not.
Well, from the players I know, there is one German D&D book compared to several dozen English ones. And in total, I own several dozen RPG books myself, and I would be surprised if 10% of them are German.
And the bookshelves of my friends are similar.
German RPG translations are usually of mediocre to low quality, and German RPGs are usually even worse. There is only one German RPG that could have been taken seriously, but with each edition it became more and more complicated and weird. (IMO the best DSA ever made was the first edition, which I played for a long time and had a lot of fun with :D )
Unfortunately, while I think there are skillfull translators, I don't think any company has the time and the money to really do a great translation. For example the F&S translation of 4e showed to me that the people really had the skill to come up with something very good (sometimes they where just brilliant) but it seems to me there was just not enough time to get everything right. And also there are traditional terms in the German RPG translation world which are just... lame :P
/Fully Agree
Well, except for the part about "one good german RPG" because I just have a very strong dislike for DSA... although I do generally like the vibe from the Primal Punk game "Degensis" which is, AFAIK, german.
I said "taken seriously", not good ;) One reason why DSA is so popular is certainly the marketing by Schmidt Spiele. And I only liked the first edition. I can't bear the later ones.
And there are indeed some very cool independent designs. Unfortunately they have either great settings and rules which don't work well, or good rules and settings which are... well... not really interesting :D
Again, I find me agreeing fully with you ;)
Hm, two German role players agreeing about an RPG related topic. *Looks up to the sky to check if the apocalypse is near* :D
To get my crowd in to D&D last year, I wrote up German Power Cards for their Lvl 8 characters and it's a real pain to come up with acceptable translations for all the power names. I pity the poor guys who will have to do it eventually and perhaps I'll check out one of the German books just for a laugh ;)
(Besides I'm currently in Wuppertal and there's not a single 4E group, I know of in about 30 km from here.)
I have to admit most power names are not all that bad, really. There are quite some nice-sounding ones among all of them, which is something of a miracle ;)
Sadly, they did mess up the translation for Cleave: Doppelschlag. I guess they didn't know about MP or the Tempest Fighter preview ;). The rest seems fine though.
Btw, greetings from Zweibrücken. :D
Normal resident or student? I'm the latter in Zweibrücken ;)
Resident :P. And I've known too many students here... most of them didn't really study at all, unless you consider playing Diablo 2 to be a study :D.
Wizards, if you are still talking with someone about the german license, please get them to translate D&D Insider, too. Most important are the player tools.
If we could get books and online content translated to the german language, i am would be really happy.
Greetings from good old europe,
Bernd Köster
This would require the responsible publisher to translate much faster than they have done in the past. DDI contains all stuff published until 2 weeks before the lastest update, while the tanslation of the books is usually months behind the english releases. They would need to already translate stuff for DDI that isn't scheduled to be translated as a physical product for annother 6 months or more.
At best you could expect local insiders offering only content up to the current status of D&D in their respective language. And even then it's doubtfull that many publishers doing the trasnlated D&D stuff even have the manpower to accomplish this. And of course they would only do this if they receive their share of the DDI subscribtion fees, which I think is something that WotC wouldn't want.
This way, a language translation could start in the D&DI. The risks would be lower for the publisher. When there are enough subscriptions, they could do the print.
Greetings,
Findulas
The P&P games are declining, for various reasons. The article here
http://www.blutschwerter.de/f562-der-loewenclub/t41920-pen-paper-rollenspiel-am-ende-von-frank-heller.html
desribed it pretty well.
I saw many of the things with my friends:
- people vanishing to WoW for months, some never to return,
- less and less time thanks to RL, so we play 3-6 times a year instaed of 1-2/week (during school)
- younger ones like kids are not looking forward reading a bunch of books before playing - just plug&play, they say.
I play OD&D with my daughter and her pals (she just turned 12), 'cause
- it's an old German translation,
- I know the rules by heart,
- and a character sheet takes half a page, not four.
Far less bookkeeping to do, more time for the story. And it's the story which captures the kids, not complicated but logical rules.
I for my part am sorry if there is no 4E in German, but wouldn't buy it anyway - I'm stuck with 2,000 EUR worth of OD&D, AD&D2nd, 3.0 and 3.5, and I own all Dungeon mags from #20-150. Enough to fill my mind for the next decade or two.
As to German Shadowrun and DEUTSCHE UBERWARE: Your knowledge of German SR apparently is outdated by some years. I too remember those horrible times, but SR4 @ Pegasus is in fine hands indeed, and while being "forced" to work with the stuff (and crap) of former publishers, they took the chance to use the "time shift" from 3rd to 4th edition (20 years in-game) to MASSIVELY reduce the crap factor, and no sign of new UBERWARE has surfaced since they took over. Maybe give them a new chance? It's well worth it in my opinion (if you can wrap your head around Wifi).
After all the 802.11n "in theory" can transmit more data than a regular ethernet connection.
do you think they are still negotiating with a german publisher? It is so quiet in every forum. In the beginning of this year we had a lot of speculations about possible publisher, but everything is quiet.
Greetings,
Findulas aka Bernd
Hi,
do you think they are still negotiating with a german publisher? It is so quiet in every forum. In the beginning of this year we had a lot of speculations about possible publisher, but everything is quiet.
Economic reasons aside, is there any German RPG-publisher who might be able to handle D&D in a satisfactory manner? I don't think so. To combine quality and speed, you'll have to work much more professionally than German publishers do, IMHO.
Amigo could have been up to the task, FanPro might have been, although their track record lets one doubt it.
I hazard the guess that - if WotC demands standards of quality and speed - thet we won't see a German licensee.
Huldvolle Grü
And the problem is not professionality. It's Wizard's unrealistic expectation of sales.
"Amigo could have been up to the task."
They had the capacity for such a project, the had the sales expertise and market penetration for such a project.
I'm not trying to tell you that Amigo actually used these possibilities and ressources on AD&D.
Amigo? Are you kidding? They were incompetent as heck. Their translations suck, and their release schedule was way behind. F&S had to struggle hard to get the whole thing up and running again.
Their translations were okay, it's the editor's responsibility to turn the raw translation into good text. In more books than I care to remember the editor's hand was nowhere to bee seen.
The release schedule was very appropriate in the first phase. It became a disaster only with the publication of the 3rd edition. I'd be interested to hear about WotC's QA in this regard.
And the problem is not professionality. It's Wizard's unrealistic expectation of sales.
Care to give numbers about these alleged "unrealistic expectations"? A quick research gives you some 340 million native speakers of English, with 105 million native speakers of German. So it should be possible to reach a quarter to a third of the sales number of english books for the German versions. Let's further cut these numbers in half due to the greater number of people who know English as a foreign language (350 million to 1 billion) as opposed to those with knowledge of German (80 million). This way we reach a ratio of from 1 in 6 to 1 in 8. Let's cut the licensee some slack and reduce the ratio to 1 in 10. So a German publisher should be able to reach 10% of the sales number WotC sees for their English books.
If such a demand has been made by WotC and if a prespective licensee therefore shied away from the license, it's hardly a problem of unrealistic demands.
Most importantly, do we want to go back to the Amigo-Treatment of D&D?
Remember the 2nd Edition Box-Sets?
Imagine the Players Handbook cut up into 7 single softcover booklets into stuff like "Basic Rules", "Basic Rules II", "Advanced Rules I", "Advanced Rules II" and so on. I still have that crap hidden in my cupboard and still think it an atrocity.
Ah, you mean like Players Handbook, Players Handbook 2,... ;)
I didn't like that treatment, but if a big publishers can get shelf space in the big shops, thus selling higher numbers, thus spreading the gospel in Germany, I'm all for it.
Huldvoll
Baron von Bomberg
(Devil's Advocate since the last century)
Care to give numbers about these alleged "unrealistic expectations"? A quick research gives you some 340 million native speakers of English, with 105 million native speakers of German. So it should be possible to reach a quarter to a third of the sales number of english books for the German versions. Let's further cut these numbers in half due to the greater number of people who know English as a foreign language (350 million to 1 billion) as opposed to those with knowledge of German (80 million). This way we reach a ratio of from 1 in 6 to 1 in 8. Let's cut the licensee some slack and reduce the ratio to 1 in 10. So a German publisher should be able to reach 10% of the sales number WotC sees for their English books.
If such a demand has been made by WotC and if a prespective licensee therefore shied away from the license, it's hardly a problem of unrealistic demands.
1. There are one or two publishers (or their representatives) who said that Wizards (or Hasbro) had unrealistic sales expextations.
2. You can't reduce the issue to populatin figures. In the US, D&D is huge, and WotC all but dominates the market. It's an established system that has a big customer pool.
In Germany, the "scene" is much smaller and much more fractured between system. Additionally, D&D is not the topseller. DSA takes the cake here. And you have to figure in those D&D players who speak English well enough to buy the English books (me included). But these aren't sold by german publishers. Also, these players don't want to wait for the translations, and they don't have to.
3. Additionally, there is the treatment of the long-time german publisher for D&D, Feder & Schwert. They did the translations for the 4e core books, and then received a simple e-mail (!) from Wizards (or Hasbro) that said their contract would not be renewed. Despite having talks about further products a few months earlier.
That's no way to treat a business partner. Such things scare other potential publishers away.
Economic reasons aside, is there any German RPG-publisher who might be able to handle D&D in a satisfactory manner?
No that many and as it seems all of then already declined WotC's first round of offers. So either WotC makes more reasonable demands for the next round of talks or Hasbro Europe need do it themselves.
I hazard the guess that - if WotC demands standards of quality and speed - thet we won't see a German licensee.
More likely sales figures that the german P&P market just won't yield. That's at least the word of the F&S guys and also rumored to be the word of the Prometheus guys, although I can't find a direct post of them at the moment..
So a German publisher should be able to reach 10% of the sales number WotC sees for their English books.
You're still forgetting the large fish in the small german pond that is DSA.
Let's cut the licensee some slack and reduce the ratio to 1 in 10. So a German publisher should be able to reach 10% of the sales number WotC sees for their English books.
And then let's cut it some more because a lot of German RPG players are really really really fed up with discontinued German versions, waiting for translations and never ever getting the whole variety and number of books in German that the English publisher releases. I would guess that only 1 out of 4 German gamers actually plays/buys German RPGs (DSA being the SOLE exception! Even a considerable part of SR players prefer English material, and that system's number 2 here).
And then let's cut the number some more because German RPG players despise and dislike anything overtly "new" – even more so than gamers in the US or anywhere else – and they were whining about 4E like all the rest (I'd say cut the number by 50 again), and finally
let's cut the number even more since Pathfinder will be released in German, by Ulyssis, the same publisher that releases The Dark Eye, the no.1 RPG in Germany (let's cut another 10 for that).
And finally: Let's factor in the number you forgot in the first place, that is that the German RPG market has a smaller share than the US or UK market (because of reasons I mentioned before in this thread), so divide by, uuh, let's say 2.
So that leaves 10% divided by 4 = 2.5% divided by 50 = 0.05% divided by 10 = 0.005% divided by 2 = 0.0025%
Yup, looks about right.
And then let's cut it some more ...
...
So that leaves 10% divided by 4 = 2.5% divided by 50 = 0.05% divided by 10 = 0.005% divided by 2 = 0.0025%
Yup, looks about right.
I answer to your reply because you actually demonstrated this kind of logic, which I call flawed.
Uuh, flawed?
Yes, because you reach a low number of expected sales giving a lot of reasons for the current situation of D&D in Germany. These facts are obstacles the prospective licensee should have an idea on how to overcome them.
Only 1 out of 4 German gamers are buying translated versions due to time lag and limited selection? It costs money to solve this problem. Your other problems are a matter of marketing.
I fully expect a company to be able to solve such problems. If such a company doesn't even have the ambition to solve clearly visible problems, it should perhaps start looking for some enterprising, resourceful businessman before asking for a license.
This has something to do with the professionalism I was asking for. The licensee should not only be proficient with translation of texts and production of books, but, first and foremost, with running a business.
Huldvoll
Baron von Bomberg
That's part of running a business.
Hi!
The German publisher of D&D 4E, Feder & Schwert ("Feather & Sword") has just declared that they'll no longer publish any D&D 4E products.
http://www.feder-und-schwert.com/news.php?id=138
This can be translated roughly as follows:
Currently, there's much speculation about the reasons for this step, ranging from WotC canceling the license to publish the German version themselves, to moving the license to another publisher who bid more for it to F&S just giving up D&D because of lacking sales.
Does anyone here have any information about this matter? Or sales/licenses for other languages?
I don't think WOTC canceled the licence because I've seen 3rd party companies making stuff under the D&D 4th Edition Game System License, I doubt they'd revoke the permission of this one company especially if its an official translator for the entire country, I bet they were just losing money.
I don't think WOTC canceled the licence because I've seen 3rd party companies making stuff under the D&D 4th Edition Game System License, I doubt they'd revoke the permission of this one company especially if its an official translator for the entire country, I bet they were just losing money.
F&S losing money on the core rulebook print run(s)? That would've been a reason to give back the license, but WotC/Hasbro revoked it.
Here's an interview with F&S about the whole issue:
http://dorptv.wordpress.com/2009/04/10/rpc-2009-feder-schwert/
can we say good bye to the german translation or are you still negotiating?
Greetings,
Bernd
To not let this thread sink into Oblivion:
Hello Scott Rouse! I would be interessted as well if there are any news at all regarding german D&D, or is it dead and gone forever ...?
And if so, how does WotC benefit from this abysmall situation to not do everythng in their power to remedy it? You know, imho, this will hurt the sale of english D&D products as well in the long run, since many newbies start with german D&D and then "branch" out to the english language version, since there are more books available and there is no translation delay.
If german D&D ceases to exist alltogether the newbies will start their roleplaying careers with "Das schwarze Auge" or maybe with the german version of "Pathfinder" and probably stick there. Is that a desireable development for you guys at WotC and if not, why is the license still dead after nearly a whole year has passed?
Anything? Anyone? Any news at all?
Anything? Anyone? Any news at all?
Well, at least there's a brand new german speaking board. A sign for better days to come for German D&D? Who knows.
Color me biased ... but I don't think so. I know quite a few people in the german rpg industry and as of my knowledge none of the major and not so major german rpg publishers is currently in negotiations with WotC.
So any REAL news at all would have to be news coming from WotC themselves.
The last statement from WotC was in June.
Perhaps there will be news on the Hasbro Booth at the Spiel '09 in Essen.
Greetings,
Findulas
Frankly thats what I am hoping as well. If there are no news at the Spiel 09 than the future of D&D German will be looking grimm indeed ... ;)
At least since the whole industry meets there that would also be a perfect chance for picking up new negotations, so that D&D German might be saved after all. But if there are neither facts nor new credible rumors at the Spiel or shortly thereafter, and things do not start moving even then, then I fear 30 years of german D&D will be really, really over. And that is a goddamn shame.
So pull yourself together WotC and make something happen in Essen for us german D&D players ...
P.S. The last statement from Wotc in June was more a statement to placate "the masses" than anything else. At that point the negotiations with the last german publisher who had been genuinely interessted (Prometheus) had already broken down some time ago. And the "mystery publisher" with whom Scott Rouse was negotiating was at least none of the known german publisher.
An in other news> Scott Rouse has left Wotc. .... This probably means that we can finally file the statement from Scott Rouse that they are still in negotations with another publisher under Myth & Legends.
Why? Because it was probably untrue in the first place and now we cannot even hold the person who started that rumour accountable for it, or pester him, or whatever. By the way, who the heck is the person that we can annoy from now on, about the state of the german license? Does anyone know? Does anyone even feel responsible?
I thought that the planned essentials line could be a new chance to start a german license with.
Is there no one who can walk over to wizards and get the german translation on the track?
Hmm.. Helloo..... somone..... out.... there.......?
Findulas
I repeat: The Essentials line would be a good way to start german D&D anew.
Please, Wizards, make it happen.
We want german D&D !
(Reference: F&S Forum)
@edit: Insert reference
Findulas
Findulas
Here is the german contact.
Wizards of the Coast Germany
Dreieich Plaza 2a
Dreieich
63303
Phone: +49 6103 3011 333
Happy Phoning
Findulas
Findulas
*bump* still no translated books in sight.
Hi!
The German publisher of D&D 4E, Feder & Schwert ("Feather & Sword") has just declared that they'll no longer publish any D&D 4E products.
http://www.feder-und-schwert.com/news.php?id=138
This can be translated roughly as follows:
Currently, there's much speculation about the reasons for this step, ranging from WotC canceling the license to publish the German version themselves, to moving the license to another publisher who bid more for it to F&S just giving up D&D because of lacking sales.
Does anyone here have any information about this matter? Or sales/licenses for other languages?
I don't think WOTC canceled the licence because I've seen 3rd party companies making stuff under the D&D 4th Edition Game System License, I doubt they'd revoke the permission of this one company especially if its an official translator for the entire country, I bet they were just losing money.
I don't think WOTC canceled the licence because I've seen 3rd party companies making stuff under the D&D 4th Edition Game System License, I doubt they'd revoke the permission of this one company especially if its an official translator for the entire country, I bet they were just losing money.
F&S losing money on the core rulebook print run(s)? That would've been a reason to give back the license, but WotC/Hasbro revoked it.
Here's an interview with F&S about the whole issue:
http://dorptv.wordpress.com/2009/04/10/rpc-2009-feder-schwert/
can we say good bye to the german translation or are you still negotiating?
Greetings,
Bernd
To not let this thread sink into Oblivion:
Hello Scott Rouse! I would be interessted as well if there are any news at all regarding german D&D, or is it dead and gone forever ...?
And if so, how does WotC benefit from this abysmall situation to not do everythng in their power to remedy it? You know, imho, this will hurt the sale of english D&D products as well in the long run, since many newbies start with german D&D and then "branch" out to the english language version, since there are more books available and there is no translation delay.
If german D&D ceases to exist alltogether the newbies will start their roleplaying careers with "Das schwarze Auge" or maybe with the german version of "Pathfinder" and probably stick there. Is that a desireable development for you guys at WotC and if not, why is the license still dead after nearly a whole year has passed?
Anything? Anyone? Any news at all?
Anything? Anyone? Any news at all?
Well, at least there's a brand new german speaking board. A sign for better days to come for German D&D? Who knows.
Color me biased ... but I don't think so. I know quite a few people in the german rpg industry and as of my knowledge none of the major and not so major german rpg publishers is currently in negotiations with WotC.
So any REAL news at all would have to be news coming from WotC themselves.
The last statement from WotC was in June.
Perhaps there will be news on the Hasbro Booth at the Spiel '09 in Essen.
Greetings,
Findulas
Frankly thats what I am hoping as well. If there are no news at the Spiel 09 than the future of D&D German will be looking grimm indeed ... ;)
At least since the whole industry meets there that would also be a perfect chance for picking up new negotations, so that D&D German might be saved after all. But if there are neither facts nor new credible rumors at the Spiel or shortly thereafter, and things do not start moving even then, then I fear 30 years of german D&D will be really, really over. And that is a goddamn shame.
So pull yourself together WotC and make something happen in Essen for us german D&D players ...
P.S. The last statement from Wotc in June was more a statement to placate "the masses" than anything else. At that point the negotiations with the last german publisher who had been genuinely interessted (Prometheus) had already broken down some time ago. And the "mystery publisher" with whom Scott Rouse was negotiating was at least none of the known german publisher.
An in other news> Scott Rouse has left Wotc. .... This probably means that we can finally file the statement from Scott Rouse that they are still in negotations with another publisher under Myth & Legends.
Why? Because it was probably untrue in the first place and now we cannot even hold the person who started that rumour accountable for it, or pester him, or whatever. By the way, who the heck is the person that we can annoy from now on, about the state of the german license? Does anyone know? Does anyone even feel responsible?
I thought that the planned essentials line could be a new chance to start a german license with.
Is there no one who can walk over to wizards and get the german translation on the track?
Hmm.. Helloo..... somone..... out.... there.......?
Findulas
I repeat: The Essentials line would be a good way to start german D&D anew.
Please, Wizards, make it happen.
We want german D&D !
(Reference: F&S Forum)
@edit: Insert reference
Findulas
Findulas
Here is the german contact.
Wizards of the Coast Germany
Dreieich Plaza 2a
Dreieich
63303
Phone: +49 6103 3011 333
Happy Phoning
Findulas
Findulas
*bump* still no translated books in sight.