GSL, OGL, and the Success of 4E - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

GSL, OGL, and the Success of 4E

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
thecasualoblivion
Jun 19, 2008 8:06:45 The question I'm curious to see answered is how much of the "success" of 3rd party publishing under the OGL was dependant on the success of 3E D&D and riding the coattails of that system. If, hypothetically speaking, 4E succeeds, takes over the gaming world and 12 months from now 3E is firmly in the past, what effect does this have on the OGL? If 3E becomes a dead system, how much does OGL gaming get hurt by this?
#2
redcard
Jun 19, 2008 8:34:29
The question I'm curious to see answered is how much of the "success" of 3rd party publishing under the OGL was dependant on the success of 3E D&D and riding the coattails of that system. If, hypothetically speaking, 4E succeeds, takes over the gaming world and 12 months from now 3E is firmly in the past, what effect does this have on the OGL? If 3E becomes a dead system, how much does OGL gaming get hurt by this?

The OGL as a license is a complete failure if no other major system uses it, or a system using it does not become major.

I'm not talking about D20 derivs, but instead completely different systems. If WW were to release Storyteller under the OGL.. or GURPS went fully under the OGL..

But, then again, I think the OGL is flawed because it offers areas of "closed source" and encourages people to use those areas.

I think a better license would be structured to be similar to what Id Software does. Data = CLosed. Engine = Open.

But that's just me.
#3
mudbunny
Jun 19, 2008 8:47:43 Mike Mearls has posted a long blog post about it here.

Here is his summary of his position:

The one advantage of open source that we did leverage was in recruiting a far, far larger pool of talent. We might never have agreed on what needed improvement, and we never did put that OGC wiki together, but there are more people today designing and publishing RPG material than ever before.

That alone makes [Open Source] a success. Tabletop RPGs continue to survive (dare I say thrive without kicking off a 4e flamewar?) precisely because of their DIY nature. Open gaming made more people into designers and publishers, and that's a good thing for this hobby, because that's the key, defining trait of what makes RPGs what they are.

#4
thecasualoblivion
Jun 19, 2008 8:59:20
Mike Mearls has posted a long blog post about it here.

Here is his summary of his position:

Just being the devil's advocate here, but he kind of sounds like he regards the OGL as something whose time has passed. I'm not sure I'd go that far yet, but if the OGL community is dependant on the success of D&D(3E) and 4E becomes the gaming standard, I'm not sure where that leaves OGL gaming.
#5
redcard
Jun 19, 2008 9:25:09
Just being the devil's advocate here, but he kind of sounds like he regards the OGL as something whose time has passed. I'm not sure I'd go that far yet, but if the OGL community is dependant on the success of D&D(3E) and 4E becomes the gaming standard, I'm not sure where that leaves OGL gaming.

Given that the only ones who can change the OGL are Wizards of the Coast, I think the OGL should be retired. There's no incentive to publish a non-D20 game in an open source type license using the OGL. If you want an Open License, you cannot have one entity controlling it in perpetuity. You must allow it to breathe.
#6
Lizard_SF
Jun 19, 2008 9:26:20
The OGL as a license is a complete failure if no other major system uses it, or a system using it does not become major.

FUDGE, Action!, Traveller, Runequest, Tri-Stat, and Spirit Of The Century have all been released under the OGL. If Traveller and Runequest aren't major systems, what are?
#7
dmftodd
Jun 19, 2008 9:27:09
If, hypothetically speaking, 4E succeeds, takes over the gaming world and 12 months from now 3E is firmly in the past,

The last ENWorld poll had 40$% of the people not interested in 4E. Paizo has plans to continue to 3.5 well into 2010. The hypothetical seems kinda pointless.
#8
Tabularasa
Jun 19, 2008 9:28:41 Firstly, I am not sure that 4E will be that much of a success to start with. It is a good game and it will attrack some players but in my opinion it is also very much likely to "split" the grognard community, much more than what 3.5 or 3.0 did when they got out.

I know that the core books are selling fast but after all we are dealing here with the grand daddy of all the RPGs, so that is to be expected. Personally, I bought the core books out of curiosity but I have serious doubt whether I'll buy the splat books.

Bottom line: There is still a market for 3E out there.

Secondly, it is far from certain that 3E will become a dead system. There is some serious names backing it up and given how restrictive the GSL is I am pretty sure this is giving some second thoughts to third parties as to the wisdom of switching to 4E.

Bottom line: There will likely still be an offer out there.

The conclusion of all this is that I believe we will end up with a RPG market roughly the size of what we have today but more fragmented. My gut feeling is that 4E will fail to attract that many new players because it is quite a long read, its rules are complex compared to a traditional boardgame and it has to compete with things like MMORPGs. The pie will not grow bigger which is a shame but there will be more people dividing it between themselves with on one hand a "closed" 4th edition and on the other an "open" OGL universe of independant publishers.

Bottom line: It's a lose-lose situation for everyone whether they are die hard fan of 4th edition or of 3.5
#9
thecasualoblivion
Jun 19, 2008 9:32:05
The last ENWorld poll had 40$% of the people not interested in 4E. Paizo has plans to continue to 3.5 well into 2010. The hypothetical seems kinda pointless.

I am speaking from a hypothetical and long term viewpoint. The edition change is a sore spot, and the situation 12 months from now will tell us a lot more than what is going on today.

As for Paizo, I don't have much faith. Their two stated goals, backwards compatibility and "fixing" 3.5E are mutually exclusive, and I don't have much faith that Pathfinder can seriously compete with people just playing 3.5E as WotC released it in the long run.

No less pointless than people speculating on the failure of 4E.
#10
redcard
Jun 19, 2008 9:35:28
FUDGE, Action!, Traveller, Runequest, Tri-Stat, and Spirit Of The Century have all been released under the OGL. If Traveller and Runequest aren't major systems, what are?

Which Traveller? T5, Mongoose Traveller, Gurps Traveller, Traveller Hero, T20?

It's not Gurps, Mongoose, or T5, or Traveller Hero.

And Runequest? Do you mean BRP? Or what?

Fudge was at one time a Universally Donated System. I remember it being on Usenet where SOS published it for free. Hell, I remember contributing things to it. It was under a mostly royalty free system LONG before OGL ever game about, and only adopted OGL because people like me wanted it to and bugged Ann for months and months. Plus, Fudge is still dual licensed.

Please be more specific. :P
#11
scud-o
Jun 19, 2008 9:38:41
The last ENWorld poll had 40$% of the people not interested in 4E. Paizo has plans to continue to 3.5 well into 2010. The hypothetical seems kinda pointless.

I have seen this stat bandied about a lot and the truth is it means absolutely squat. 40% of the people that frequent ENWorld.org AND that choose to participate in the poll are not switching. I visitn ENWorld.org every day and didn't click on the poll because, honestly, it's a waste of time. I would have chosen "playing both" if that was an option.

That poll was always going to be weighted toward those who weren't switching since people who are switching have nothing to complain about (please understand, I am not judging people complaining, just stating a fact). The poll is most likely to be answered by those who feel "wronged" or "slighted" so that they can "make their voices heard".
#12
redcard
Jun 19, 2008 9:40:25
I have seen this stat bandied about a lot and the truth is it means absolutely squat. 40% of the people that frequent ENWorld.org AND that choose to participate in the poll are not switching. I visitn ENWorld.org every day and didn't click on the poll because, honestly, it's a waste of time. I would have chosen "playing both" if that was an option.

That poll was always going to be weighted toward those who weren't switching since people who are switching have nothing to complain about (please understand, I am not judging people complaining, just stating a fact). The poll is most likely to be answered by those who feel "wronged" or "slighted" so that they can "make their voices heard".

Plus, what this hobby needs right now is NEW people.. not the same old people. We're shrinking, and we're losing. If we get more new people in, we have a chance to survive.

That said, I've heard the same numbers quoted from 2.0 to 3.0, and people eventually seemed to get over that ;)

I still have friends that play OD&D.
#13
Lizard_SF
Jun 19, 2008 9:45:10
Which Traveller? T5, Mongoose Traveller, Gurps Traveller, Traveller Hero, T20?

It's not Gurps, Mongoose, or T5, or Traveller Hero.

And Runequest? Do you mean BRP? Or what?

Fudge was at one time a Universally Donated System. I remember it being on Usenet where SOS published it for free. Hell, I remember contributing things to it. It was under a mostly royalty free system LONG before OGL ever game about, and only adopted OGL because people like me wanted it to and bugged Ann for months and months. Plus, Fudge is still dual licensed.

Please be more specific. :P

Mongoose RQ and Mongoose Traveller. The Mongoose RQ SRD is up and has been for at least a year; the Traveller one either is up or will be shortly.

The cool thing to remember about the OGL is that there are no walls between game systems. There isn't a "Traveller OGL", there's just some text released under the license. This lets you mix and match portions of game systems and content easily.
#14
JohnLynch
Jun 19, 2008 9:48:10
We're shrinking

I wouldn't go that far ;)

If we get more new people in, we have a chance to survive.

4e brought me in.

If all the haters are right then not only should Pathfinder thrive, but it should outsell 4e. I personally look forward to hearing how well it sells when its finally released.
#15
redcard
Jun 19, 2008 9:49:08 If it results in the type of iterative development and product enhancement that Ryan Dancey says the OGL was made for, I'll eat my hat, Lizard.

I somewhat doubt it will, though. And as for Runequest, perhaps that's a major system.. but when Traveller has FIVE different iterations, all of them legal, all of them active RIGHT NOW.. I don't think I can call any one version a "Major system."
#16
redcard
Jun 19, 2008 9:51:59
I wouldn't go that far ;)

I have friends who run game stores who cannot sell RPGs nowadays, and are eating their mac and cheese off of magic cards, games workshop minis, Pokemon cards, WoW cards, and comic books. It's not through lack of ability to sell the RPGs, it's through the lack of people wanting to BUY the RPGs.

We ARE shrinking. The OGL and D20 craze was a shot in the arm, but it also created a lot of bad stock in the LGS that couldn't move.

If WOTC wasn't owned by Hasbro and didn't have the Magic line to buoy it, D&D would be long since buried.
#17
zynete
Jun 19, 2008 12:35:34
No less pointless than people speculating on the failure of 4E.

From my point of view, it is just as pointless. Which is why I am looking at this thread the same way as I look at many threads started by very anti-4e posters.
#18
steerpike7
Jun 19, 2008 14:27:40 I think OGL will do fine over the next few years. I'm playing both 3.5 and 4E, and will play Pathfinder most likely. I like 4E, but I can't tell yet if I'll like it month after month, year after year, like I did earlier editions of D&D. Also, my favorite 3.5E materials are from 3PPs, and if GSL results in little support from 3PPs, it will negatively influence how much 4E I play, and the vacuum created there will be filled in part by OGL. I think the GSL has ensured OGL will have a longer life than it would have if GSL was more open.
#19
JohnLynch
Jun 19, 2008 20:07:37
We ARE shrinking.

In that case the fat gamer stereotype should go away :P
#20
leaderdesslok
Jun 19, 2008 23:26:12 The thing is that we as forum lurkers and/or participants are not representative of the vast majority of RPG players. Even within my own gaming group of six people, I am the only one who regularly visists these sites. For the most part we shape our perceptions based on what we read here on the net.

I, for one, do not like the changes to D&D in the 4th edition. I'm 41 years old and have been playing since 1978, and I don't think the new version in any way is eepresentative of the style of play we old-school gamers are used to.

That being said, I know for a fact that my 12-year-old nephew will love to death the new rules system. When I introduced D&D to him a year ago, he said he wanted to be a dragon warrior. I told him he couldn't really do that with the rules I had. With 4E, right off the bat he has a fully fleshed out race to start playing with, and as a member of the video game generation I know he will enjoy the new style of play. I fully intend on DMing games for him and his friends using he new rules. I will NEVER use 4E for my regular gaming group.

in other words, its all a matter of perspective. I don't want to use the new rules for my friends, but I will whole-heartedly use them to introduce a new generation to roleplaying games.

As gamers, I think we should embrace the new rules set as a way to introduce new players to our subculture. We don't have to embrace it ourselves, but we should still promote it amongst non-gamers.
#21
stormonu
Jun 19, 2008 23:47:53 I think in the end the OGL will outsurvive 4E, only for the fact that come 5th, 6th, or whatever edition of D&D, people can still use the OGL to make games.

However, I don't suspect it will be even 1% of the game designer community that uses it in less than two years. Only the cult fanatics who have a bone to pick with the major companies and want to do things "their way".
#22
ORC_Chaos
Jun 20, 2008 0:11:05 Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
#23
18DELTA
Jun 20, 2008 0:31:36
In that case the fat gamer stereotype should go away :P

-Hey, thats not funny!!! :P I resemble that remark!!! ;) :P :D

18DELTA :D
#24
JohnLynch
Jun 20, 2008 0:59:51
-Hey, thats not funny!!! :P I resemble that remark!!! ;) :P :D

18DELTA :D

Don't worry, Redcard assures me we have nothing to worry about ;)
#25
Titanium_Dragon
Jun 21, 2008 8:20:39
FUDGE, Action!, Traveller, Runequest, Tri-Stat, and Spirit Of The Century have all been released under the OGL. If Traveller and Runequest aren't major systems, what are?

Uh, systems that people actually buy?

Seriously, D&D, Exalted, WoD, and Star Wars make up like 80% of the RPG market, counting only WotC and WW.

The OGL was basically doomed the moment 4e wasn't going to be released under it. Most of the RPG companies live off the scraps of WotC; the only one which doesn't to any significant degree is White Wolf.
#26
zynete
Jun 21, 2008 16:43:53 Ah, a shining example of the kind and modest 4e players that I see everywhere. What would I do without them?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thecasualoblivion Jun 19, 2008 8:06:45	The question I'm curious to see answered is how much of the "success" of 3rd party publishing under the OGL was dependant on the success of 3E D&D and riding the coattails of that system. If, hypothetically speaking, 4E succeeds, takes over the gaming world and 12 months from now 3E is firmly in the past, what effect does this have on the OGL? If 3E becomes a dead system, how much does OGL gaming get hurt by this?
#2 redcard Jun 19, 2008 8:34:29	The question I'm curious to see answered is how much of the "success" of 3rd party publishing under the OGL was dependant on the success of 3E D&D and riding the coattails of that system. If, hypothetically speaking, 4E succeeds, takes over the gaming world and 12 months from now 3E is firmly in the past, what effect does this have on the OGL? If 3E becomes a dead system, how much does OGL gaming get hurt by this? The OGL as a license is a complete failure if no other major system uses it, or a system using it does not become major. I'm not talking about D20 derivs, but instead completely different systems. If WW were to release Storyteller under the OGL.. or GURPS went fully under the OGL.. But, then again, I think the OGL is flawed because it offers areas of "closed source" and encourages people to use those areas. I think a better license would be structured to be similar to what Id Software does. Data = CLosed. Engine = Open. But that's just me.
#3 mudbunny Jun 19, 2008 8:47:43	Mike Mearls has posted a long blog post about it here. Here is his summary of his position: The one advantage of open source that we did leverage was in recruiting a far, far larger pool of talent. We might never have agreed on what needed improvement, and we never did put that OGC wiki together, but there are more people today designing and publishing RPG material than ever before. That alone makes [Open Source] a success. Tabletop RPGs continue to survive (dare I say thrive without kicking off a 4e flamewar?) precisely because of their DIY nature. Open gaming made more people into designers and publishers, and that's a good thing for this hobby, because that's the key, defining trait of what makes RPGs what they are.
#4 thecasualoblivion Jun 19, 2008 8:59:20	Mike Mearls has posted a long blog post about it here. Here is his summary of his position: Just being the devil's advocate here, but he kind of sounds like he regards the OGL as something whose time has passed. I'm not sure I'd go that far yet, but if the OGL community is dependant on the success of D&D(3E) and 4E becomes the gaming standard, I'm not sure where that leaves OGL gaming.
#5 redcard Jun 19, 2008 9:25:09	Just being the devil's advocate here, but he kind of sounds like he regards the OGL as something whose time has passed. I'm not sure I'd go that far yet, but if the OGL community is dependant on the success of D&D(3E) and 4E becomes the gaming standard, I'm not sure where that leaves OGL gaming. Given that the only ones who can change the OGL are Wizards of the Coast, I think the OGL should be retired. There's no incentive to publish a non-D20 game in an open source type license using the OGL. If you want an Open License, you cannot have one entity controlling it in perpetuity. You must allow it to breathe.
#6 Lizard_SF Jun 19, 2008 9:26:20	The OGL as a license is a complete failure if no other major system uses it, or a system using it does not become major. FUDGE, Action!, Traveller, Runequest, Tri-Stat, and Spirit Of The Century have all been released under the OGL. If Traveller and Runequest aren't major systems, what are?
#7 dmftodd Jun 19, 2008 9:27:09	If, hypothetically speaking, 4E succeeds, takes over the gaming world and 12 months from now 3E is firmly in the past, The last ENWorld poll had 40$% of the people not interested in 4E. Paizo has plans to continue to 3.5 well into 2010. The hypothetical seems kinda pointless.
#8 Tabularasa Jun 19, 2008 9:28:41	Firstly, I am not sure that 4E will be that much of a success to start with. It is a good game and it will attrack some players but in my opinion it is also very much likely to "split" the grognard community, much more than what 3.5 or 3.0 did when they got out. I know that the core books are selling fast but after all we are dealing here with the grand daddy of all the RPGs, so that is to be expected. Personally, I bought the core books out of curiosity but I have serious doubt whether I'll buy the splat books. Bottom line: There is still a market for 3E out there. Secondly, it is far from certain that 3E will become a dead system. There is some serious names backing it up and given how restrictive the GSL is I am pretty sure this is giving some second thoughts to third parties as to the wisdom of switching to 4E. Bottom line: There will likely still be an offer out there. The conclusion of all this is that I believe we will end up with a RPG market roughly the size of what we have today but more fragmented. My gut feeling is that 4E will fail to attract that many new players because it is quite a long read, its rules are complex compared to a traditional boardgame and it has to compete with things like MMORPGs. The pie will not grow bigger which is a shame but there will be more people dividing it between themselves with on one hand a "closed" 4th edition and on the other an "open" OGL universe of independant publishers. Bottom line: It's a lose-lose situation for everyone whether they are die hard fan of 4th edition or of 3.5
#9 thecasualoblivion Jun 19, 2008 9:32:05	The last ENWorld poll had 40$% of the people not interested in 4E. Paizo has plans to continue to 3.5 well into 2010. The hypothetical seems kinda pointless. I am speaking from a hypothetical and long term viewpoint. The edition change is a sore spot, and the situation 12 months from now will tell us a lot more than what is going on today. As for Paizo, I don't have much faith. Their two stated goals, backwards compatibility and "fixing" 3.5E are mutually exclusive, and I don't have much faith that Pathfinder can seriously compete with people just playing 3.5E as WotC released it in the long run. No less pointless than people speculating on the failure of 4E.
#10 redcard Jun 19, 2008 9:35:28	FUDGE, Action!, Traveller, Runequest, Tri-Stat, and Spirit Of The Century have all been released under the OGL. If Traveller and Runequest aren't major systems, what are? Which Traveller? T5, Mongoose Traveller, Gurps Traveller, Traveller Hero, T20? It's not Gurps, Mongoose, or T5, or Traveller Hero. And Runequest? Do you mean BRP? Or what? Fudge was at one time a Universally Donated System. I remember it being on Usenet where SOS published it for free. Hell, I remember contributing things to it. It was under a mostly royalty free system LONG before OGL ever game about, and only adopted OGL because people like me wanted it to and bugged Ann for months and months. Plus, Fudge is still dual licensed. Please be more specific. :P
#11 scud-o Jun 19, 2008 9:38:41	The last ENWorld poll had 40$% of the people not interested in 4E. Paizo has plans to continue to 3.5 well into 2010. The hypothetical seems kinda pointless. I have seen this stat bandied about a lot and the truth is it means absolutely squat. 40% of the people that frequent ENWorld.org AND that choose to participate in the poll are not switching. I visitn ENWorld.org every day and didn't click on the poll because, honestly, it's a waste of time. I would have chosen "playing both" if that was an option. That poll was always going to be weighted toward those who weren't switching since people who are switching have nothing to complain about (please understand, I am not judging people complaining, just stating a fact). The poll is most likely to be answered by those who feel "wronged" or "slighted" so that they can "make their voices heard".
#12 redcard Jun 19, 2008 9:40:25	I have seen this stat bandied about a lot and the truth is it means absolutely squat. 40% of the people that frequent ENWorld.org AND that choose to participate in the poll are not switching. I visitn ENWorld.org every day and didn't click on the poll because, honestly, it's a waste of time. I would have chosen "playing both" if that was an option. That poll was always going to be weighted toward those who weren't switching since people who are switching have nothing to complain about (please understand, I am not judging people complaining, just stating a fact). The poll is most likely to be answered by those who feel "wronged" or "slighted" so that they can "make their voices heard". Plus, what this hobby needs right now is NEW people.. not the same old people. We're shrinking, and we're losing. If we get more new people in, we have a chance to survive. That said, I've heard the same numbers quoted from 2.0 to 3.0, and people eventually seemed to get over that ;) I still have friends that play OD&D.
#13 Lizard_SF Jun 19, 2008 9:45:10	Which Traveller? T5, Mongoose Traveller, Gurps Traveller, Traveller Hero, T20? It's not Gurps, Mongoose, or T5, or Traveller Hero. And Runequest? Do you mean BRP? Or what? Fudge was at one time a Universally Donated System. I remember it being on Usenet where SOS published it for free. Hell, I remember contributing things to it. It was under a mostly royalty free system LONG before OGL ever game about, and only adopted OGL because people like me wanted it to and bugged Ann for months and months. Plus, Fudge is still dual licensed. Please be more specific. :P Mongoose RQ and Mongoose Traveller. The Mongoose RQ SRD is up and has been for at least a year; the Traveller one either is up or will be shortly. The cool thing to remember about the OGL is that there are no walls between game systems. There isn't a "Traveller OGL", there's just some text released under the license. This lets you mix and match portions of game systems and content easily.
#14 JohnLynch Jun 19, 2008 9:48:10	We're shrinking I wouldn't go that far ;) If we get more new people in, we have a chance to survive. 4e brought me in. If all the haters are right then not only should Pathfinder thrive, but it should outsell 4e. I personally look forward to hearing how well it sells when its finally released.
#15 redcard Jun 19, 2008 9:49:08	If it results in the type of iterative development and product enhancement that Ryan Dancey says the OGL was made for, I'll eat my hat, Lizard. I somewhat doubt it will, though. And as for Runequest, perhaps that's a major system.. but when Traveller has FIVE different iterations, all of them legal, all of them active RIGHT NOW.. I don't think I can call any one version a "Major system."
#16 redcard Jun 19, 2008 9:51:59	I wouldn't go that far ;) I have friends who run game stores who cannot sell RPGs nowadays, and are eating their mac and cheese off of magic cards, games workshop minis, Pokemon cards, WoW cards, and comic books. It's not through lack of ability to sell the RPGs, it's through the lack of people wanting to BUY the RPGs. We ARE shrinking. The OGL and D20 craze was a shot in the arm, but it also created a lot of bad stock in the LGS that couldn't move. If WOTC wasn't owned by Hasbro and didn't have the Magic line to buoy it, D&D would be long since buried.
#17 zynete Jun 19, 2008 12:35:34	No less pointless than people speculating on the failure of 4E. From my point of view, it is just as pointless. Which is why I am looking at this thread the same way as I look at many threads started by very anti-4e posters.
#18 steerpike7 Jun 19, 2008 14:27:40	I think OGL will do fine over the next few years. I'm playing both 3.5 and 4E, and will play Pathfinder most likely. I like 4E, but I can't tell yet if I'll like it month after month, year after year, like I did earlier editions of D&D. Also, my favorite 3.5E materials are from 3PPs, and if GSL results in little support from 3PPs, it will negatively influence how much 4E I play, and the vacuum created there will be filled in part by OGL. I think the GSL has ensured OGL will have a longer life than it would have if GSL was more open.
#19 JohnLynch Jun 19, 2008 20:07:37	We ARE shrinking. In that case the fat gamer stereotype should go away :P
#20 leaderdesslok Jun 19, 2008 23:26:12	The thing is that we as forum lurkers and/or participants are not representative of the vast majority of RPG players. Even within my own gaming group of six people, I am the only one who regularly visists these sites. For the most part we shape our perceptions based on what we read here on the net. I, for one, do not like the changes to D&D in the 4th edition. I'm 41 years old and have been playing since 1978, and I don't think the new version in any way is eepresentative of the style of play we old-school gamers are used to. That being said, I know for a fact that my 12-year-old nephew will love to death the new rules system. When I introduced D&D to him a year ago, he said he wanted to be a dragon warrior. I told him he couldn't really do that with the rules I had. With 4E, right off the bat he has a fully fleshed out race to start playing with, and as a member of the video game generation I know he will enjoy the new style of play. I fully intend on DMing games for him and his friends using he new rules. I will NEVER use 4E for my regular gaming group. in other words, its all a matter of perspective. I don't want to use the new rules for my friends, but I will whole-heartedly use them to introduce a new generation to roleplaying games. As gamers, I think we should embrace the new rules set as a way to introduce new players to our subculture. We don't have to embrace it ourselves, but we should still promote it amongst non-gamers.
#21 stormonu Jun 19, 2008 23:47:53	I think in the end the OGL will outsurvive 4E, only for the fact that come 5th, 6th, or whatever edition of D&D, people can still use the OGL to make games. However, I don't suspect it will be even 1% of the game designer community that uses it in less than two years. Only the cult fanatics who have a bone to pick with the major companies and want to do things "their way".
#22 ORC_Chaos Jun 20, 2008 0:11:05	Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
#23 18DELTA Jun 20, 2008 0:31:36	In that case the fat gamer stereotype should go away :P -Hey, thats not funny!!! :P I resemble that remark!!! ;) :P :D 18DELTA :D
#24 JohnLynch Jun 20, 2008 0:59:51	-Hey, thats not funny!!! :P I resemble that remark!!! ;) :P :D 18DELTA :D Don't worry, Redcard assures me we have nothing to worry about ;)
#25 Titanium_Dragon Jun 21, 2008 8:20:39	FUDGE, Action!, Traveller, Runequest, Tri-Stat, and Spirit Of The Century have all been released under the OGL. If Traveller and Runequest aren't major systems, what are? Uh, systems that people actually buy? Seriously, D&D, Exalted, WoD, and Star Wars make up like 80% of the RPG market, counting only WotC and WW. The OGL was basically doomed the moment 4e wasn't going to be released under it. Most of the RPG companies live off the scraps of WotC; the only one which doesn't to any significant degree is White Wolf.
#26 zynete Jun 21, 2008 16:43:53	Ah, a shining example of the kind and modest 4e players that I see everywhere. What would I do without them?