| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1saul_durianAug 13, 2008 22:09:28 | Hi everyone, So, I have been spending a great deal of time over, really, the last couple of years. Making in my own system of sorts. It is heavily based on 3.5 with some mix in from other games and 4e. Anywho, I plan on having all this stuff printed, like good quality hardcover books. I am basically going to steal all kinds of stuff, and I also have alot of my own stuff. My question is, what is the legality of this? I don't plan to distribute or sell or anything outside of my and my players. Am I allowed to do this? Or will the FBI kick in my door some game night? Thanks in advance. |
| #2ranger_regAug 13, 2008 22:15:56 | Hi everyone, First off, get a lawyer. Secondly, get a lawyer. Finally, get a lawyer. We cannot offer you legal advice here. Only non-legal advice. |
| #3theninjadAug 13, 2008 22:20:09 | If you're not distributing to anyone for money of any kind, I don't think there is anything that anyone could do about it. I am not a lawyer. Truthfully, no one would have had to know about this so you would have no problem at all...until you posted here. Your IP address can be used to find your location and identity now. If you are actually afraid of the FBI kicking in your door, you just made a huge mistake. But I sincerely doubt that, even if it is illegal, anyone will care as long as you don't try to start selling it. |
| #4saul_durianAug 13, 2008 22:21:02 | I know get a lawyer, but maybe someone has asked this question before, or maybe a staff member can answer me. Or if someone knows the answer I'd be glad to hear what they have to say on the topic. If I can find out that it's crazy illegal here, then I can save money by not wasting time with a lawyer. |
| #5Hocus-SmokusAug 13, 2008 22:25:41 | Hi everyone, Legally allowed? No. Whether you are using it for sale, give-away, or whatever, trademarks, copyrights, and other publishing laws still apply. Of course, all that is really needed is just enough difference from already-printed material so that it could no longer be seen as infringing. For example, WotC has all of the rights to Tieflings, including their stats, descriptions, art, and so on. However...if you create a race called Demonborn or Pitspawn or something, alter their stats a bit, and give them a bit of different fluff, then there's really nothing anyone can do about it, even if they know for a fact that you're talking about Tieflings. Any inclusion of the words Dungeons & Dragons, Wizards of the Coast, or any other name-brand without permission is illegal. Any inclusion of specific names such as Tieflings, Dragonborn, Warforged, etc. is not allowed, either. Those names are the sole property of WotC. However...trolls, orcs, goblins, dragons, etc. are not protected, unless you do nothing more than copy/paste a D&D creature's stats into your game and call it your own. Also, finding a publisher willing to hard-bind your work could be a bit tricky if everything you give them is full of ripped-off material that you have used without anyone's permission. If you give them a manuscript with D&D or Forgotten Realms or something on the cover, there might be trouble. It then can become a legal issue for them if they print it. The good news: if you can find a company, store, etc. willing to print your stuff with no questions asked, and the stuff you make is kept between you and your group (no selling online or anything), then I really can't see corporate sending Vinnie the Bull after you with razor blades and lemon juice. Be very, very aware though that copyright laws are strict. They are being taken very seriously, especially in this day and age where info is so easily crook-able on the internet. I guess the end answer would be: do it at your own risk. As my old First Sergeant in the Army told me once, "only do what you can afford if you get caught". Seemed like sage advice at the time...still does. |
| #6saul_durianAug 13, 2008 22:35:35 | That's funny, my old company commander said the same thing. |
| #7saul_durianAug 13, 2008 22:45:15 | Legally allowed? No. Whether you are using it for sale, give-away, or whatever, trademarks, copyrights, and other publishing laws still apply. Of course, all that is really needed is just enough difference from already-printed material so that it could no longer be seen as infringing. Basically, yes I am ripping everything off, and I know that if I were to sell this, I would quickly have a new big hairy guy love interest in my life behind bars. I know for the actually printing, there are online companies, even staples will do it. Its runs a lot like 200 bucks per book, and I think I'm gonna need about 19 books. i already did all the print formatting and put them on a disk, just have to run them off. And no, I don't thin I have any trade mark logos anywhere. But I have everything else, names races, stuff, pics blah blah. |
| #8mechascorpioAug 13, 2008 22:47:30 | If you're not distributing to anyone for money of any kind, I don't think there is anything that anyone could do about it. I am not a lawyer. It doesn't matter if you charge money or not. To illustrate: if I went to GenCon this weekend and handed out free copies of my "4.1 E PHB", re-typed with errata and my own notes*, it would be a copyright violation at the very least, along with trademark violation if I did high-quality versions that made it look like the real thing. Doesn't matter if I'm handing them out the back of a truck for free, it's still a violation. As far as I recall, no law within the US has ever made a clear distinction between "I made a copy of this CD for my friend" and "I bootleg CDs". * to be clear, this was an example; this version does not exist! |
| #9saul_durianAug 13, 2008 23:35:24 | So I just had a convo with a guy who is a printer or whatever you call them. And he says that as long as I have a legal purchased copy of what I want re-printed for personal use, he doesn't have a problem doing it. |
| #10mechascorpioAug 14, 2008 0:13:48 | Well, sure he said that. Then he called the FBI. |
| #11saul_durianAug 14, 2008 0:24:18 | ...Crap you are probably right ::feeds the fish and leaves:: ::Then remembers, I don't have fish and now I'm suddenly wondering where I am and how I got here:: |
| #12ranger_regAug 14, 2008 3:03:21 | Or if someone knows the answer I'd be glad to hear what they have to say on the topic. If I can find out that it's crazy illegal here, then I can save money by not wasting time with a lawyer. If you're doing this for personal use, or just within your own gaming group, and not plan to distribute anywhere else (I don't care if you're charging money or not), knock yourself out. But if you have other reason to distribute, then I am telling you that you would not be wasting your money on a lawyer any more than paying your insurance premiums. |
| #13Hocus-SmokusAug 14, 2008 10:12:28 | If you're doing this for personal use, or just within your own gaming group, and not plan to distribute anywhere else (I don't care if you're charging money or not), knock yourself out. It really doesn't matter if it's for personal use or not. It's no different than copying DVDs or CDs...while the matter might not be pursued, it is illegal under international copyright laws. The old "will not reproduce in whole or in part" speech that precedes every movie applies to any copy-written work. Once again, it might not be pursued, but ze law is ze law. As far as getting someone to print and bind it...sure, they'll do it. Of course, should it become an issue, they can be dragged into court right next to him. They then bear shared responsibility for the infringement. But hey...I'd do it, too. Guess I'm just a lawless felon on the loose. |
| #14ranger_regAug 14, 2008 15:06:32 | Hey, if WotC want to sue me for using their material for personal use, they can knock themselves out. |
| #15Hocus-SmokusAug 14, 2008 18:22:56 | Hey, if WotC want to sue me for using their material for personal use, they can knock themselves out. Well...there is a difference between simply using material for your personal use, and cherry-picking from several different copyright holders, compiling it together in the order you wish, having it hardbound, then using it in your group. I really don't see anyone pursuing any legal actions, but hey...stranger things have happened. I use LimeWire. Most people I personally know use LimeWire or some other file-sharing program (torrents, e-mules, etc.). I've probably downloaded thousands of dollars worth of music, movies, software, etc. throughout the years, as have many other people. However...a woman who lived only a mile and a half from me was recently (about two years ago) arrested and brought up on charges of piracy. The police stated she had "probably a hundred songs" that she had ripped on her hard drive. I had to laugh a little bit. This lady gets busted for a hundred songs, meanwhile dozens of people that live right next to her have thousands upon thousands collectively. The law is funny sometimes, as are the people who want to pursue it. |
| #16ranger_regAug 15, 2008 14:44:52 | Well...there is a difference between simply using material for your personal use, and cherry-picking from several different copyright holders, compiling it together in the order you wish, having it hardbound, then using it in your group. I really don't see anyone pursuing any legal actions, but hey...stranger things have happened. I use LimeWire. Most people I personally know use LimeWire or some other file-sharing program (torrents, e-mules, etc.). I've probably downloaded thousands of dollars worth of music, movies, software, etc. throughout the years, as have many other people. However...a woman who lived only a mile and a half from me was recently (about two years ago) arrested and brought up on charges of piracy. The police stated she had "probably a hundred songs" that she had ripped on her hard drive. I had to laugh a little bit. This lady gets busted for a hundred songs, meanwhile dozens of people that live right next to her have thousands upon thousands collectively. The law is funny sometimes, as are the people who want to pursue it. Perhaps, but I don't download my RPG products from any file-sharing program. I buy or order it online. You got lucky. Maybe she tripped on a web site that would track her internet activity, like an electronic equivalent of a decoy vehicle used for catching carjackers. |
| #17theonlyjettAug 16, 2008 23:21:01 | I'll catch this thread so I don't have to make another one. What if I want to port IP from one company into a system from another company, and have it primarily be on a wiki site so multiple people can work on it from their own home? No money, or anything, but being on the internet, so it's sorta already considered distributed, right? |
| #18Hocus-SmokusAug 16, 2008 23:59:30 | What if I want to port IP from one company into a system from another company, and have it primarily be on a wiki site so multiple people can work on it from their own home? IP is a very subjective law. There are states that have rules that say anything you create is immediately considered IP, whether you copyright it or not. There are others that state that internet-released, non-copyright material is subject to use. The thing to remember: if the work you intend on moving/copying/etc. IS copyrighted, then it is in violation. By "porting" material, you are, in effect, altering it unless you are moving the entire work. It goes back to the old "in part or in whole" laws. Even moving it as a whole is in violation, as it could be seen as using it in a way not intended. IP and copyright laws have been growing and becoming more strict within the last few years thanks, in part, to the internet. It has become too easy to copy/paste something and call it your own. Yeah, putting something on a free to use site would probably not be legally pursued, but it is still taking a chance. While you might get away with it not being copyright infringement, it could still be labeled as plagiarism. Still a crime, and still pursuable. The various laws include: IP laws Copyright laws Trademark laws Plagiarism laws Fair Use laws ...and so on. A big bucket of worms to open. What you have to ask yourself is: Is it worth it if I slip up and break one those various laws? Can I afford it? |
| #19theonlyjettAug 17, 2008 0:20:01 | But wouldn't it only be plagiarism if I claimed it was mine? I want to take the IP, give credit to who it belongs to and then adapt game mechanics to another system for cross campaigning. I don't intend on putting any of the fluff from the original IP, and... you know... if I just make the mechanics of what I want and leave out the names... would that work? I mean, it may still be sort of obvious, but with no names, fluff, or original mechanics, that may be alright, then, right? |
| #20Hocus-SmokusAug 17, 2008 10:57:34 | But wouldn't it only be plagiarism if I claimed it was mine? Yes, that is true. I want to take the IP, give credit to who it belongs to and then adapt game mechanics to another system for cross campaigning. I don't intend on putting any of the fluff from the original IP, and... you know... if I just make the mechanics of what I want and leave out the names... would that work? I mean, it may still be sort of obvious, but with no names, fluff, or original mechanics, that may be alright, then, right? So let me see if I've got this right by using a hypothetical example: I'm going to take D&D 4E mechanics, give credit for using them to WotC, leave out any fluff or names, then alter it to suit...say...RIFTS. Am I tracking so far? You're using the mechanics, but not using any names or fluff, right? If you're willing to do what you say and "just make the mechanics of what I want and leave out the names...", then why not go that small further step and do it all original? I mean, WotC cannot copyright rule-sets. Nobody can. However, they can copyright the interpretation of those rules. I can also make a game that uses the six main ability scores, makes you roll d20 for most functions, rename everything, and I'd be okay. However...if I should slip up and use any of the rules interpretations that have already been set by WotC, I could be in trouble. I've tried taking the core, base rule set and changing it for a new game. I've yet to be able to do it without at least one or two instances of using their interpretations of the rules. By taking the various IPs, giving credit to the owners of those IPs, then changing (adding to/deleting from/altering the wording of) what you've given credit for using...no. Too risky. Once again, whether WotC would actually pursue anyone for doing this is only known to them, but I highly doubt it, especially if it's a free product that does not bring down the original or alter the sales of the original products. It sounds like you have a good plan. Just go that one extra step and do it all original. Trust me, it's very rewarding to make an original game and have people actually want to play it. If you do decide to use someone else's rule-sets, do NOT give credit to them for it, and alter the hell out of those rules as to make them pretty much unrecognizable at a first glance. If you give credit for it to someone else, that's when it becomes a problem. I know it's all a bit confusing, but I make a webpage that gives credit to WotC, then put altered rules from D&D on there, I can expect trouble. However...if I make a webpage, put drastically altered, differently-named rules on it, give credit to no one except myself, then it probably won't ever even be looked at twice by WotC. |
| #21steerpike7Aug 17, 2008 11:11:18 | For example, WotC has all of the rights to Tieflings, including their stats, descriptions, art, and so on. This statement alone is a perfect example of why you should never rely on internet forums for legal advice. To the OP - get a lawyer. Don't listen to what is posted on these forums to see if you need a lawyer. |
| #22Hocus-SmokusAug 17, 2008 11:30:30 | This statement alone is a perfect example of why you should never rely on internet forums for legal advice. Please explain to me how the proper title of Tieflings as a PC race is NOT the sole property of WotC. What other game has used the name Tieflings, made them either (2nd Ed): a union of demon/devil and human or (4th Ed): a human with a pact history with demons/devils. I've yet to see one single use of it, but if you know one, I'd love to see it. Provide a link? I never implied I was a lawyer. All I've said (in several forums other than this game-based one) that for the last 11 years or so I've done literally tons of IP/copyright/trademark law research. Of course he needs a lawyer. Everyone needs a lawyer. I have a lawyer on retainer (I own a business, so that's a totally wise decision) that I consult with pretty much weekly. |
| #23theonlyjettAug 17, 2008 11:42:48 | I'm going to take D&D 4E mechanics, give credit for using them to WotC, leave out any fluff or names, then alter it to suit...say...RIFTS. Am I tracking so far? Er, I think, though not take the 4e game. I wouldn't want to do that. I'm not interested in creating my own game, I just wanted to take the fluff from the other game and homebrew it into my 4e game. For home. The real question I have, is can I then post them on a wiki to use as a medium for me and other interested parties to work together on the project? It seems to me that I can't use any original names and fluff, that I have to change it, in which case I might as well come up with original fluff, and not mention the original IP that was the inspiration. Is this correct? And no, not Rifts. It was the first RPG I played, and it's cool in a sort of crazy way (anything can be fun with the right people), but just not my cup of tea. Besides, there's already a setting coming out for 4e with the whole tech and magic mix. So I really wouldn't have to homebrew it all anyways. Ok, it's vampires. D&D vamps are good monsters, sort of. But definitely not good players. It needs some (lots of) work to get the sort of options that those who already play vampire PCs in other games are used to. |
| #24Hocus-SmokusAug 17, 2008 11:54:56 | Er, I think, though not take the 4e game. I wouldn't want to do that. I'm not interested in creating my own game, I just wanted to take the fluff from the other game and homebrew it into my 4e game. For home. The real question I have, is can I then post them on a wiki to use as a medium for me and other interested parties to work together on the project? It seems to me that I can't use any original names and fluff, that I have to change it, in which case I might as well come up with original fluff, and not mention the original IP that was the inspiration. Is this correct? To the best of my understanding, yes. |
| #25lurkingliddaAug 17, 2008 14:10:40 | I am basically going to steal all kinds of stuff, ... If you know it's wrong - after all you've self-labeled the behavior as stealing - why would you need to ask if it's wrong? Seems to me you already know the answer. |
| #26saul_durianAug 17, 2008 14:52:01 | If you know it's wrong - after all you've self-labeled the behavior as stealing - why would you need to ask if it's wrong? Seems to me you already know the answer. Alright, stealing may not be the best choice of words, by all technicality, I'm not stealing as I have purchased and own all the material I'm basing what I am doing off of. I'm just mixing it together and consolidating it. and admittedly, throwing in some minor tweaks for my house rules. |
| #27royalblueeyesAug 17, 2008 15:41:52 | Alright, stealing may not be the best choice of words, by all technicality, I'm not stealing as I have purchased and own all the material I'm basing what I am doing off of. I'm just mixing it together and consolidating it. and admittedly, throwing in some minor tweaks for my house rules. And now you just want to bind it, make it pretty, and give it to people to play with. Why do you need to bind it then? Why not use the baseline system that governs combat and produce a folder with all the errata that underlines noncombat, and pass it around the DnD table? Unless of course, your intentions are much larger (say...your LGS). DON'T try passing something off as yours if it is not yours to begin with. |
| #28nicodemisquickAug 17, 2008 16:51:13 | For clarification, if you are making significant changes to all systems involved, then you are in the clear. Even if you are not, here is what the United States Copyright Office has to say (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wwp) What Is Not Protected by Copyright? Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal copyright protection. These include among others: * Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration This is one of the reasons why Wizards came up with the Open Gaming License, because by law there was no way that they could protect a system under US Copyright Law. The setting fluff and the accompanying art are protected, but the system itself is something that they can not copyright. |
| #29saul_durianAug 17, 2008 18:20:29 | And now you just want to bind it, make it pretty, and give it to people to play with. Nope just gonna bind the books, make them nice for me and a few other people. I have it at 21 books in all, with a compendium basically that covers every area that needs more than 1 book, classes, spells, feats etc. A overall rule book, monster books and thats it. I plan to make about 6 copies of some of the books and 2 copies for most of the books. 1 copy for me plus what my players need, and a copy to put on the shelf somewhere. And I don't plan to take credit for anything that I did not directly create. Everything has a source reference. For clarification, if you are making significant changes to all systems involved, then you are in the clear. Even if you are not, here is what the United States Copyright Office has to say (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wwp) Well, for the most part, I believe that the mechanic of the game is changed enough to make it a different game, and I know that the mechanic itself isn't protected. But...I am still using stuff that I know if I tried to sell off I would get hung up on. But I am not trying to sell or distribute on any kind of even mediocre scale. I'd say 98%ish of the fluff has been cut out of all the stuff. I actually added some of my own. And there isn't setting stuff being used. It's basically just a compiled and tweaked volume off nerdopedias. Maybe, my best bet would be checking into how to get into the GSL or OGL or whatever so I can at least use the WotC stuff. |
| #30Hocus-SmokusAug 17, 2008 18:34:44 | Maybe, my best bet would be checking into how to get into the GSL or OGL or whatever so I can at least use the WotC stuff. No. No, no, no. If you sign the agreement and are accepted to use the GSL, and you do anything outside the rules of the GSL, you're pretty much screwed. If WotC decides to sue (doubtful they would...but if...), even if you win, you have to pay their court costs, as per the GSL. Stick with the plan you have. Enough change to fluff and stuff will put you in the clear. The minute you sign the GSL agreement, you're bound to WotC's rules for creation and distribution. If you do NOT sign it, you're not bound to its rules. You might be found in the wrong for one thing or another, but if you sign the agreement, you're stuck. I've been walking a very careful line since I signed on to use the GSL, and have to check, re-check, and check again every little thing I've done to ensure it's in compliance. |
| #31saul_durianAug 17, 2008 20:52:42 | Ok, so that road is out, thanks for the heads up HS. I guess I will just go with what I have, I really do not see me getting sued over this anyway, unless somehow one of the publishers got a hold of one of these books, and I honestly do not see that happening. So off to the presses sometime this week. Got a few different places I can do it at. Current estimates put the book count at about 76...I think. So....I guess that's it from me, thanks everyone for your input. And yes I did talk to a pro in the copy right field, and he said what I was doing is illegal..and kinda pricey.... But unless I start passing them out, I shouldn't have to much of an issue. Although he did say I should consider not posting stuff on the companies website from which I'm intending to commit a crime against....oops Anywho if anyone wants a copy email me at [email]thisisttotallyajoke@yearight.com[/email] :P |
| #32DralenanAug 17, 2008 21:07:46 | I have a headache and don't feel like reading all of this thread, so I'll just answer what I have read... First off, when it comes to "owning the material", you only own the physical book, the paper and binding, etc. The copyright belongs to Wizards of The Coast. Along with the copyright notice is this statement: "Any reproduction or unauthorized use of the material or artwork contained herein is prohibited without the express written permission of Wizards of the Coast, Inc." This means you can't copy or distribute anything in a book with that notice without written permission. The only part where this does not apply are character sheets or other handouts with a special printed notice giving permission to copy. So no, it is not legal to reprint part of the D&D core rules without permission...now for the gray... What you are looking at doing is I assume for personal use. It is a derivative work, and thereby illegal to distribute, if it contains the copyrighted material. If you are the only one who will ever see copies, however, you really can't be held for it, distribution is the big concern. It's not really legal either way. In reply to whoever said copying CDs was illegal, doesn't understand copyright laws. Personal copying is legal, despite what the RIAA is attempting to mislead customers with. |
| #33Hocus-SmokusAug 17, 2008 21:14:05 | In reply to whoever said copying CDs was illegal, doesn't understand copyright laws. Personal copying is legal, despite what the RIAA is attempting to mislead customers with. Making a copy of a CD you already own is legal. That was never debated. |
| #34lurkingliddaAug 17, 2008 21:20:10 | And yes I did talk to a pro in the copy right field, and he said what I was doing is illegal... You'd do well to take his advice. Although he did say I should consider not posting stuff on the companies website from which I'm intending to commit a crime against....oops I think I read an article about that in this magazine called "Duh." Anywho if anyone wants a copy email me at [email]thisisttotallyajoke@yearight.com[/email] LOL. Cute. Hope the rest of your thread is totally a joke as well. :P |
| #35Hocus-SmokusAug 17, 2008 21:53:18 | I think I read an article about that in this magazine called "Duh." I like you....cynical AND witty. I think we'd get along great. LOL. Cute. Hope the rest of your thread is totally a joke as well. :P While I hope so, too, I hate to think I've wasted all this time responding to joke posts. Some people really need to find something to occupy themselves aside from mocking others. |
| #36DralenanAug 17, 2008 21:58:38 | I'm sorry if I misread something, I do have a headache and I might have misunderstood, but I thought I read someone specifically say that making copies of CDs was illegal. |
| #37apollyonschosenAug 17, 2008 22:51:10 | Do it no problem. Distribute or profit fom it? Well..not cool. You know this guy sounds like he is wanting to print his home brew, house rule thing. Guess we should all turn ourselves in.... |