Barak wrote:
---------------- snip ----------------
PCGen Community,
The PCGen Board of Directors is sad to announce that data sets based
upon Wizards of the Coasts (WotC) Fourth Edition Dungeons and Dragons
will not be included in PCGen for the foreseeable future.
With WotC's recent release of the Game System License, it has become
clear that material licensed under the GSL will not be allowed in any
Character Generators, and of course that includes PCGen. Thats the
bad news.
The good news is that the PCGen Team is committed to making homebrew
support for the 4th Edition D&D rule set possible. To that end, one
of the major goals of PCGen's v5.16.x development cycle is to add
functionality to PCGen in support of 4th Edition home brew data sets
for personal use.
Board of Directors
PCGen Project
---------------- snip ----------------
This is what I was afraid of. So PCGen can build support for the 4th edition ruleset but noone can distribute the datasets that are required to make it workable. It's roughly the same as what they had for 3.5 splat books, trying to chase down datasets for non-core material in the dark corners of the internet.
Combine this with the fact that Wizards character generator will be Windows only there is effectively no character generator I can use. As far as I'm concerned this is the ultimate "My way or the Highway" from Wizards. I'll take the highway thanks.
People will make homebrew versions of the core D&D datasets for PCGen and share them virally. Its just an extra step.
I did this with 3.5 non-core classes. It's like using Napster back in the day. It's a pain to find the stuff you want, quality sucks, and the IP owners brand you a pirate. No thanks.
Of course, it's possible to scrape data from the compendium and use it in a 3rd party program, but the legality of this is questionable as so far it appears there is nothing but resistance to homebrew apps that can do what D&DI does.
It's sad that WoTC has a mechanic in place to assure that subscribers who wished to pay THEM for their IP via the D&D Compendium are locked into their propriatary character creator as well.
Of course, it's possible to scrape data from the compendium and use it in a 3rd party program, but the legality of this is questionable as so far it appears there is nothing but resistance to homebrew apps that can do what D&DI does.
Complete resistance to this sort of thing is impossible. There are still bootleg programs to play M:tG. I think even good old Apprentice is still going strong. If they can't outlaw bootleg Magic programs, it is a non-issue for 4E.
I did this with 3.5 non-core classes. It's like using Napster back in the day. It's a pain to find the stuff you want, quality sucks, and the IP owners brand you a pirate. No thanks.
What's wrong with being a pirate? Hoist the Jolly Roger with pride, mate. Arr.
Sigh....
This is what I was afraid of. So PCGen can build support for the 4th edition ruleset but noone can distribute the datasets that are required to make it workable. It's roughly the same as what they had for 3.5 splat books, trying to chase down datasets for non-core material in the dark corners of the internet.
Combine this with the fact that Wizards character generator will be Windows only there is effectively no character generator I can use. As far as I'm concerned this is the ultimate "My way or the Highway" from Wizards. I'll take the highway thanks.
Yeah. Just like all the other characters I make with PCGen for systems that don't approve of it. Look, people will make the Datasets, people will share the datasets, and that's just a fact of life.
All PCGen is saying is they won't do it officially. But that doesn't stop it from happening.
Yeah. Just like all the other characters I make with PCGen for systems that don't approve of it. Look, people will make the Datasets, people will share the datasets, and that's just a fact of life.
All PCGen is saying is they won't do it officially. But that doesn't stop it from happening.
PCGean doesn't bother me, heck I love those guys!
You are missing the point here. Why on earth would I want to spend money on a company that is deliberately limiting what I can do with their product? I thought the OGL was awesome and IMO ultimately benefited Wizards. However I can totally understand them putting out a more limited license to protect their core products. This license goes beyond that and into ridiculous. There are tons of ways they could have prevented the alleged abuses from the OGL without these sorts of measures.
alleged abuses
I use the phrase 'alleged abuses' because I simply do not believe that the problems and abuses they claim happened under the OGL affected them financially in any way. Generally under the OGL the D&D market thrived and as a community it grew greatly, with Wizards benefiting more than anyone. but that's another discussion...
How can home computers help gamers and gaming? Lots of possibilities there. At the very least, a home computer can act as a giant pair of dice, using its built-in “random number generator.” Other uses might include automatic character generation, automated DM-ing, automatic mapping, etc.
Further installments of The Electric Eye TOLD people to keep coming up with more character generators, and other player and DM tools for computers.
We have come a long way since 1980 where you are not allowed to even make a simple calculator for D&D all because the company wants to make their own.
We have come a long way since 1980 where you are not allowed to even make a simple calculator for D&D all because the company wants to make their own.
Three steps forward, three steps back?
Three steps forward, three steps back?
To be fair, the GSL really to cover anything but published books. The provisions that mention character generators and the like are referring to including a DDI style suite of tools with your licensed product.
IE: No "Complete Superhero" supplement with new classes, skills, feats, abilities and equipment with accompanying character generator, map maker and rules compendium with the D20 Logo right on the cover because you accepted the GSL!
In reality, we can make all the tools we want for home use (fair use) and even release them. I would imagine that the fan site document will have a SRD style document that lays out what you can reference and what you can define. It's probably in your best interests to wait for that fan site document before you release your software with any D&D references however. :P
In reality, we can make all the tools we want for home use (fair use) and even release them. I would imagine that the fan site document will have a SRD style document that lays out what you can reference and what you can define. It's probably in your best interests to wait for that fan site document before you release your software with any D&D references however. :P
Umm... no this is not true. If you don't accept the GSL then your rights are exactly those which you get normally under copyright law. Does copyright cover the names of spells and powers? It's been suggested that you could use them under fair use laws and that's entirely possible. It's also possible that Wizards could send a C&D to your Web Host saying that you are publishing copyrighted material. Most web hosts will pull your content immediately due to the provisions in the DMCA. At that point you could take Wizards to court but... who has the time and money to fight a company like Hasbro over a hobby project?
Will Wizards do this? I don't know. The makers of PCGen have made it quite clear that they are not willing to venture into gray areas of copyright law. This is a very IP owner friendly policy and companies like WotC should respect that and make it clear what can and cannot be used.
I would imagine that the fan site document will have a SRD style document that lays out what you can reference and what you can define. It's probably in your best interests to wait for that fan site document before you release your software with any D&D references however. :P
As I said above, the fan site licensing could change the whole equation. Until that is released and clears things up there will be no PCGen.
They have made it quite clear what that they don't want commercial companies producing products like PCGen, it is assumed that this extends to products like PCGen as well. Personally, for me, this is one of several show stoppers which make me unwilling to spend money on Wizards content.
Umm... no this is not true. If you don't accept the GSL then your rights are exactly those which you get normally under copyright law. Does copyright cover the names of spells and powers? It's been suggested that you could use them under fair use laws and that's entirely possible.
Fair Use has to do with things like parodies, reviews, and scholarly or educational uses of material. Commercial use is generally not covered here. IANAL, so do your own research, but that is my understanding of Fair Use.
Fair Use has to do with things like parodies, reviews, and scholarly or educational uses of material. Commercial use is generally not covered here. IANAL, so do your own research, but that is my understanding of Fair Use.
Well PCGen is not commercial, it's Open Source and free. Regardless the PCGen devs won't mess with trying to use fair use.
Most of the rules in D&D can NOT be copyrighted. Just the presentation.Two guys from my group are attorneys (including the DM)
Rules cannot, the specific names of powers and spells though? "Righteous Brand", "Wrathful Thunder", the names of the powers are not the rules. How do you build a character when you can't talk about what powers she has? Some of the power names are common enough that they can probably be used freely but others are not so common.
Would your lawyer friends be willing to host a website with all the PCGen datafiles on them? I'll make the arrangements and pay for the site but it will all be in their names.
Actually, we've already housruled the heck out of 4ed anyway. Eventually, time permitting, we'd like to get a separate game with similar rules in print. Anything outside of playing the game will probably be taken up by our own projects. It's also entirely possible that we'll be too lazy to do anything. hopefully, we'll be able to make use of some digital tools in the future. But aside from a website and some Pdfs, I'm unsure at this point.
If you house rule your own classes and build your own datasets for them then you can certainly use PCGen to build 4e style characters. This is an interesting line of thought.
Fair Use has to do with things like parodies, reviews, and scholarly or educational uses of material. Commercial use is generally not covered here. IANAL, so do your own research, but that is my understanding of Fair Use.
Wouldn't a character generators be acceptable as an educational tool? For those unable to figure it out, they have this program that over time helps to teach them how to make characters by giving them better instructions and showing them the math, just like any textbook in school. The character generator however doesn't freely give you the numbers used in the math so that you would still need to own the books to work out how the numbers were arrived at in the final adaptation of the character.
If you don't accept the GSL then your rights are exactly those which you get normally under copyright law. Does copyright cover the names of spells and powers? It's been suggested that you could use them under fair use laws and that's entirely possible. It's also possible that Wizards could send a C&D to your Web Host saying that you are publishing copyrighted material.
Correct. But it's pretty clear that you can't copyright a tool that manipulates data from a source, not that the GSL is actually meant to apply to said tool anyway. Obviously you can't just define all abilities, add descriptions, etc, but you can certainly write a tool that could do this. The majority of us just want something that will format data into nice structures for our own personal use, which IIRC falls very squarely into the lap of fair use. American copyright and IP laws are terribly screwed up however, so your ability to do this as an American may well be impeded more than that of say a Canadian or European where consumer rights carry more weight. I'm pretty confidant that even under the DMCA this kind of thing is allowable, but if one were to make specific game data available one would have to be pretty careful with the kinds of information are being disseminating.
Most web hosts will pull your content immediately due to the provisions in the DMCA.
Not everyone is under the provisions of the DMCA.
Will Wizards do this? I don't know. The makers of PCGen have made it quite clear that they are not willing to venture into gray areas of copyright law. This is a very IP owner friendly policy and companies like WotC should respect that and make it clear what can and cannot be used.
I commend them for this. Personally, I wouldn't want to tread those waters either. The whole issue is more of a grey area in the states than elsewhere to my understanding, but it's in everyone's best interests to wait until this stuff is laid out by WoTC either way.
As I said above, the fan site licensing could change the whole equation. Until that is released and clears things up there will be no PCGen.
That fan site licensing will clear up a lot of things, I think we're all waiting very patiently for it. As I said above, I hope there is a simple SRD style document which says what is and is not available to be defined. I hope it gives us some neat things to work with like stat blocks templates and possibly some border or title art too.
They have made it quite clear what that they don't want commercial companies producing products like PCGen, it is assumed that this extends to products like PCGen as well. Personally, for me, this is one of several show stoppers which make me unwilling to spend money on Wizards content.
Not really, they made it clear that they didn't want commercial companies producing suites of products like DDI under their free license with the D20 logo all over it. While I'm sure they would like it if there were no DDI competition they are well aware that there is no way to restrict it in a free market, or with a license. If there were a universal SRD that defined what we could and could not put into a character generator, this wouldn't be a discussion.
It's also possible that Wizards could send a C&D to your Web Host saying that you are publishing copyrighted material. Most web hosts will pull your content immediately due to the provisions in the DMCA. At that point you could take Wizards to court but... who has the time and money to fight a company like Hasbro over a hobby project?
Actually at that point, assuming you are certain you are not infringing and willing to fight it, you would file a counter notice through your ISP. Your ISP would then be required to notify those that sent the take down notice. They CAN NOT then send another take down notice. They must file a case in district court within 14 days or your ISP is obligated to restore the content.
At that point, assuming they follow through they take you to court, not the other way around. The burden will be on them to prove that you are infringing their copyright.
Of course this will still likely cost you a great deal of time and money.
Charles
Personally I don't blame them, pcgen is a group of guys who do this for fun, they don't have corporate lawyers to deal with this stuff.
It is bad business no matter who you are to tick customers off and as I see it Wizards has a whole crap load of ticked off customers right now and I don't think they are going away anytime soon.
Well Wizards hopes they don't go away soon. Personally I'm not so sure.
They have made it quite clear what that they don't want commercial companies producing products like PCGen, it is assumed that this extends to products like PCGen as well. Personally, for me, this is one of several show stoppers which make me unwilling to spend money on Wizards content.
The moment that I could not buy datasets for PCGen from CMP for WotC books, is the moment I stopped buying DnD books. I have about 50 books, and PCGen datasets for about 48 of them. The added value of a PCgen dataset for me is so high, that if there is no dataset, I do not buy the book.
Well PCGen is not commercial, it's Open Source and free. Regardless the PCGen devs won't mess with trying to use fair use.
I don't think the law cares if you're giving something away or selling it. Fair Use still doesn't sound like it applies. Does Open Source have any special legal status/privileges in regard to using someone else's IP? I've never heard that it did, but I have my head in the sand.
"What is to prevent them?" Time, money, lack of a legal staff to tackle the issue.
From what I have heard WotC has not been receptive to licensing their product outside the GSL. Have they granted any non-GSL licenses?
There is nothing preventing them from trying to get a seperate license from WotC.
Except putting time into a product for a crappy RPG? I think that's the real reason.
As I said above, the fan site licensing could change the whole equation. Until that is released and clears things up there will be no PCGen.
There will be PCGen. PCGen will not go away if it can't distribute 4th Edition Datasets.
As PCGen have said, they will put functionality in PCGen to provide the ability to create your own 4th edition sets for your own personal use.
Also, there are other things in the works that I cannot talk about until things are finalised, but watch the usual places for announcements and updates.
On a personal note, I'm finding Pathfinder RPG more and more inviting.
Anestis.
There will be PCGen. PCGen will not go away if it can't distribute 4th Edition Datasets.
As PCGen have said, they will put functionality in PCGen to provide the ability to create your own 4th edition sets for your own personal use.
Also, there are other things in the works that I cannot talk about until things are finalised, but watch the usual places for announcements and updates.
On a personal note, I'm finding Pathfinder RPG more and more inviting.
Anestis.
Of course there will be things to provide to create 4th edition sets. Just like when PCGen created stuff in the way for people to create sets for other games, just like when they didn't have permission, etc. It's nothing new here.
It just won't be available from the main site, but it'll be all over their forums or wikis.
Trust me. I'm in the opensource world. I know how it operates.
Of course there will be things to provide to create 4th edition sets. Just like when PCGen created stuff in the way for people to create sets for other games, just like when they didn't have permission, etc. It's nothing new here.
It just won't be available from the main site, but it'll be all over their forums or wikis.
Trust me. I'm in the opensource world. I know how it operates.
Indeed, I've worked with open source for years and I can tell you it's a royal PITA downloading a distribution then spending half a day adding back in all of the stuff that the distributions won't include because of stupid licensing restrictions. It's gotten a lot better now but for a long time getting MP3 support and video playback running under Linux was a royal pain because you had to chase all over downloading stuff from different sources.
Maybe you like dealing with that and don't mind that the people who write your software get jailed for it. Personally I'm sick of it.
@Anestis -- That is what I meant and I'd actually said in my previous posts but obviously not what I said in that post. The whole issue is just frustrating.
PCGean doesn't bother me, heck I love those guys!
You are missing the point here. Why on earth would I want to spend money on a company that is deliberately limiting what I can do with their product?
Can I take this to mean you don't own an X-Box, Wii, PS3 etc? No books, CDs, or other media? No IPod?
Can I take this to mean you don't own an
That's what I get for using absolutes
Lets just say I strongly prefer choices that offer the consumer the most flexibility. Thus no DRM encrypted music, Linux on the home system...There will be PCGen. PCGen will not go away if it can't distribute 4th Edition Datasets.
As PCGen have said, they will put functionality in PCGen to provide the ability to create your own 4th edition sets for your own personal use.
Also, there are other things in the works that I cannot talk about until things are finalised, but watch the usual places for announcements and updates.
Anestis.
Hi all,
Just to 'officially' back up what Anestis has posted here, we are currently working on our rules engine in order to support 4e and Pathfinder, this will be releaed as part of our 5.16 release cycle.
* Users will be able to enter their own data for 4e, like they can for any setting supported by PCGen.
* Pathfinder have kindly given us permission to provide their datasets so they will be provided.
We've always had a good professional relationship with WotC and once some of the 4e busy time for them dies down we will certainly contact them and see if there is anything we can work with them on regarding 4e support.
Karianna
If PCGen is going to rely on user input for all the data, then the user input mechanisms need to be improved 1000 fold for PCGen.
Agreed. It's the reason I don't currently use it.
If PCGen is going to rely on user input for all the data, then the user input mechanisms need to be improved 1000 fold for PCGen.
Do you really think the users of PCGen for Fourth Edition are going to enter this stuff by hand? Because, I've been a fan of opensource and what not for a long, long while, and I assure you.. once one person gets 4e working in PCGen.. you're going to see a lot more people suddenly get it going overnight.
I've seen datasets before that were not.. *cough* Legit. Some that looked strikingly like CMP's bundles.
Exactly, you can make and distribute as many datasets as you want, then copy them among your friends just like you do ripped MP3s! IP lawyers have a word for that, it's called piracy.
And?
Your point is?
It might surprise you to know this, but if they add in the ability to DO 4e in pcgen, and they add in the ability to save / load / create datasets, that they fully expect people to do this.
Off the record, of course. They'll talk about how they don't "condone it." It'll be banned from their forums. But it'll be like DVDdecss in Linux. That's also "piracy" and "illegal", and it's still one of the only ways to view DVDs in Linux.
So what's your point? I'm not condoning illegal activities. I'm saying that illegal activities WILL occur.
I have no issue whatsoever with getting datasets off of P2P netowrks to use with PCgen. If WOTC makes it so I cannot legally use the tools that our community makes, then I will go underground when the tools do.
D&D has a long standing history of community created tools. It won't stop with 4e regardless of any products WOTC may be marketing in the digital media front.
These community tools havem helped push the sales of D&D products for over 20 years, by making it easier for players to create games and characters and find information. I find it kind of strange that WOTC would put the clamps on community tools, and try and kick the community out just to try and nickle and dime us with DDI.
I will be watching this situation very closely. I like 4e very much as a game system, but WOTCs business models are bordering on non-Euclidean geometry to me at this point in time. The issues with closed gaming and the seeming destruction of community is really grating on me.
But in all fairness, while the legal jargon of these documents seems intense, I have not heard of WOTC seeking to shut down or hamper any fan created content at this point in time. So until the point when this starts to happen, I am certainly along for the ride.
love,
malkav
So what's your point? I'm not condoning illegal activities. I'm saying that illegal activities WILL occur.
Just not keen on the new direction Wizards is pushing the game that's all.
Then again, it's really convenient I suppose, while people are out there picking up the illegal datafiles they can hop on over and DL the full PDFs of the book.
In for a penny in for a pound right?
Just not keen on the new direction Wizards is pushing the game that's all.
Then again, it's really convenient I suppose, while people are out there picking up the illegal datafiles they can hop on over and DL the full PDFs of the book.
In for a penny in for a pound right?
I'm not condoning either.
I'm just saying that the opensource way has always been to make it easier for people to operate in their activities. If that means sharing datafiles, so be it. I doubt that the pcgen people REALLY want to come out and say they condone the sharing.. but.. at the same time, they're not going to program in stopgaps against it.
It's kinda one of those "look the other way" things.
Do you really think the users of PCGen for Fourth Edition are going to enter this stuff by hand?...I've seen datasets before that were not.. *cough* Legit.
No matter who puts out a dataset (professional or armature) there are always flaws and mistakes, some that should be blatantly obvious and simple to fix (like a flawed BaB/Save progression).
I disliked CMPs limited "update warranty" of, what was it, 2 years. So even if you bought a legit set, you might have to had buy it again after your time was up to fix some problems. (By the way, this is a totally great way to reward your customers for buying first iteration software/hardware.
)It spreads like wildfire when people start sharing something like these "datasets".
One person will download something for free without offering anything back.
Another will see that someone already created something they took time in doing, and try to beat then to the next one.
Then it explodes with fans trying to be the first to create X race, class, etc in whatever dataset they are using to get some sort of credit for it.
It is great for the rest of us that don't know how.
I'm not condoning either.
I'm just saying that the opensource way has always been to make it easier for people to operate in their activities. If that means sharing datafiles, so be it. I doubt that the pcgen people REALLY want to come out and say they condone the sharing.. but.. at the same time, they're not going to program in stopgaps against it.
It's kinda one of those "look the other way" things.
We don't condone it in any way shape or form, _period_. We're quite happy to state that publicly loud and clear as many times as needed.
We will be working on our data entry tools to make it easier for people to enter data into PCGen for any system, this has always been on our roadmap.
What's wrong with being a pirate? Hoist the Jolly Roger with pride, mate. Arr.
I must point out that it's, "Hoist the colors." Pirates were notorious for having colorful flags. The Jolly Rogers was a specific flag for a specific pirate. :D
We don't condone it in any way shape or form, _period_. We're quite happy to state that publicly loud and clear as many times as needed.
We will be working on our data entry tools to make it easier for people to enter data into PCGen for any system, this has always been on our roadmap.
Then if Wizards asked you to put in stopgaps that would lock down the files created for 4e items to only the computer or instance of PCGen that created it, you'd gladly do that, correct?
In a sense, you'd have no problem putting DRM in , right?
I've seen this before in OSS. Your response is as expected and understood.
Then if Wizards asked you to put in stopgaps that would lock down the files created for 4e items to only the computer or instance of PCGen that created it, you'd gladly do that, correct?
In a sense, you'd have no problem putting DRM in , right?
I've seen this before in OSS. Your response is as expected and understood.
Wizards can't really do anything to PCGen if they don't want to any more than they could tell Microsoft to apply the same limitations to Office.
Wizards can't really do anything to PCGen if they don't want to any more than they could tell Microsoft to apply the same limitations to Office.
Yes, they could. Tell that to the MPAA.
The fact is, and I mean no disrespect or no intention of trolling.. they know full well what people will use this for, they expect it, and they'll do nothing to stop it.
They could stop it, if they wanted to, but being opensource, everyone knows a "cracked" version would be released from somewhere.
Come on. I run linux. I listen to MP3s and watch movies. Both of those are "illegal" in the US. Let's not pretend like the people behind PCGen really think every one is going to enter the whole datasets on their own. I'm not that naive. I know what they have to say, and I understand it, but I've watched that product and others in the opensource world for over a decade. I know how it works.
Yes, they could. Tell that to the MPAA.
The fact is, and I mean no disrespect or no intention of trolling.. they know full well what people will use this for, they expect it, and they'll do nothing to stop it.
They could stop it, if they wanted to, but being opensource, everyone knows a "cracked" version would be released from somewhere.
Come on. I run linux. I listen to MP3s and watch movies. Both of those are "illegal" in the US. Let's not pretend like the people behind PCGen really think every one is going to enter the whole datasets on their own. I'm not that naive. I know what they have to say, and I understand it, but I've watched that product and others in the opensource world for over a decade. I know how it works.
Tell that to Universal City Studios, Inc.
The 9th Circuit Court ruled against Napster because they felt Napster had the ability to monitor and control the activities of the users. Unless PCGen becomes a product where they can monitor people's files they are fine.
The idea of PCGen being liable for what users might do is nonsense. The makers of camcorders know that some people will use their product to record bootleg versions of movies, that doesn't mean the studios can sue camcorder makers.
It would be easy to demonstrate many noninfringing uses of PCGen. As long as they don't induce infringement they are ok. If WOTC can show that PCGen intends for people to share copyrighted datasets then they have a case, otherwise PCGen is in the clear.
I listen to MP3s and watch movies. Both of those are "illegal" in the US.
No they're not. You may have media that infringes on copyrights but neither of those are inherently "illegal" in the US.
No they're not. You may have media that infringes on copyrights but neither of those are inherently "illegal" in the US.
Actually, yes.
I use Linux, and there is only one legal DVD player for linux inside the US. All others violate the DMCA. Further, none of the MP3 players I use have paid the proper patenting / licensing fees to Fraunhoffer, so that is illegal as well under the DMCA.
It is illegal on the face to distribute or install circumvention technology in the US, and that is precisely what linux users do en masse almost every single day.
Actually, yes.
I use Linux, and there is only one legal DVD player for linux inside the US. All others violate the DMCA. Further, none of the MP3 players I use have paid the proper patenting / licensing fees to Fraunhoffer, so that is illegal as well under the DMCA.
It is illegal on the face to distribute or install circumvention technology in the US, and that is precisely what linux users do en masse almost every single day.
If you use a player that violates the DMCA you have a point, but your original statement about playing MP3s and videos is incorrect if there is a legal player available. That's why Guivre called you out on it. It is possible to legally use it. Of course, due to the heavy handed restrictions you and just about everyone else have decided to go another route. Power to the people!
[/aside]
So PCGen is making something for 4th, but it may be up to people to include the actual Wotc IP, right?
Is any Windows version of video player legal to use under Linux, just because you use Wine to implement it through the Windows emulation?
[/aside]
So PCGen is making something for 4th, but it may be up to people to include the actual Wotc IP, right?
Yeah. It'll be up to people to include the IP, and of course, you're fully expected to not share those datasets because that's not condoned. So don't do it.
As for your aside, no, because most (if not all) microsoft software contains "no emulation without license" clauses. You must run on a Windows Genuine system.
PCGen has substantial non-infringing uses. It's going to be very hard, even under DMCA, to hold them liable for what their users do with 4E data sets. I doubt WotC would even try it, it's such a bad case.
It doesn't matter. The whole point of the thread is that the PCGen team is not going to release a 4e dataset. Whether or not they could get away with it they are not going to do it because PCGen always gets explicit permission before using anyone's data.
No third party friendly license, no PCGen dataset.
It doesn't matter. The whole point of the thread is that the PCGen team is not going to release a 4e dataset. Whether or not they could get away with it they are not going to do it because PCGen always gets explicit permission before using anyone's data.
No third party friendly license, no PCGen dataset.
That's not what I referring to. People were speculating as to whether PCGen could be liable for their USERS creation and distribution of 4E datasets. It is unlikely.
That's not what I referring to. People were speculating as to whether PCGen could be liable for their USERS creation and distribution of 4E datasets. It is unlikely.
Just to be clear.
I was not speculating on whether they'd be liable. Obviously, they wouldn't be, because they wouldn't be doing any infringing.
My whole point is that they won't be doing anything to stop the infringing, and they know full well that the infringing would occur.
NOT that they'd be liable.
It doesn't matter. The whole point of the thread is that the PCGen team is not going to release a 4e dataset. Whether or not they could get away with it they are not going to do it because PCGen always gets explicit permission before using anyone's data.
No third party friendly license, no PCGen dataset.
I guess you missed this:
We've always had a good professional relationship with WotC and once some of the 4e busy time for them dies down we will certainly contact them and see if there is anything we can work with them on regarding 4e support.
Karianna
So it's less of a "oh my god WotC wants to kill PCGen" situation and more of a "I wonder if WotC will give PCGen a specific license, seeing as the GSL doesn't work for them".
Just to be clear.
I was not speculating on whether they'd be liable. Obviously, they wouldn't be, because they wouldn't be doing any infringing.
I wouldn't use the word "obviously" here. You can be liable for other people's intellectual property infringement even when you aren't doing any infringement yourself. That's where vicarious liability comes in, for example.
Just to be clear.
I was not speculating on whether they'd be liable. Obviously, they wouldn't be, because they wouldn't be doing any infringing.
My whole point is that they won't be doing anything to stop the infringing, and they know full well that the infringing would occur.
NOT that they'd be liable.
You are proposing that users will enter their own 4e dataset and share them with other users. Please explain how PCGen could prevent the distribution of user generated content based on closed sources, or decide which user generated content would be allowed to be distributed? Someone who builds a dataset based on closed content with the intention to distribute it would probably not set a data tag designed to prevent distribution. PCGen wants open content to be able to be distributed, and there is no way for the program to see the difference.
Then please explain, even if PCGen could do this, how the PCGen team could prevent anyone who knows Java from creating their own version of PCGen that removes those security measure.
If you want insinuate that PCGen promotes piracy, you can make the same case against Apple, for example, after all you can use iPod to play pirated music. Or any other music player manufacturer. Or CD writer manufacturer. Or generally any company that makes computers. Or Xerox machines. And so on.
Regards,
Stefan Radermacher,
PCGen Developer.
You are proposing that users will enter their own 4e dataset and share them with other users. Please explain how PCGen could prevent the distribution of user generated content based on closed sources, or decide which user generated content would be allowed to be distributed? Someone who builds a dataset based on closed content with the intention to distribute it would probably not set a data tag designed to prevent distribution. PCGen wants open content to be able to be distributed, and there is no way for the program to see the difference.
Then please explain, even if PCGen could do this, how the PCGen team could prevent anyone who knows Java from creating their own version of PCGen that removes those security measure.
If you want insinuate that PCGen promotes piracy, you can make the same case against Apple, for example, after all you can use iPod to play pirated music. Or any other music player manufacturer. Or CD writer manufacturer. Or generally any company that makes computers. Or Xerox machines. And so on.
Since you've asked me to explain myself..
There are a variety of ways to implement security, even while having an opensource structure. A bevy of cryptography tools does this very well, and short of a number of keys being weakly encrypted, the opensource model has done decently at retaining a level of security. It would be an academic exercise to go through these, and one I will not entertain. If you wish me to, I can mention binary only modules , perhaps written in C, that contain functionality that Java can embrace and extend on. Sun uses some of these very featuresets in their Java products.
Moving onwards, you are telling me that you do not promote piracy, and I believe you. But when you turn around and tell me that PCGen promotes the sharing of datasets between users.. and you are telling me that you will implement the creation of 4e datasets, you are contradicting the terms. 4e by its very nature is a closed, not open content release. Wizards has made it very clear that this is the game they wish to play.
I wish you the best of luck, and I repeat my assertion that you are NOT condoning piracy.
HOWEVER.. I can also see how a court could find differently. They found against people for far less.
HOWEVER.. I can also see how a court could find differently. They found against people for far less.
Not likely at all.
love,
malkav
Not likely at all.
Tell it to the RIAA/MPAA.
Because applications like PCGen would fall just as under the DMCA as DVD DeCss did, and the datafiles will be transferred just like infringing MP3s are, and in either case, the RIAA/MPAA have been extremely successful inside and outside the US.
That said, my point is not to argue, just to state that this piracy stuff WILL occurr, and every one knows it.
Tell it to the RIAA/MPAA.
Because applications like PCGen would fall just as under the DMCA as DVD DeCss did,
No.
DeCSS was about breaking encryption, they are not the same at all.
No.
DeCSS was about breaking encryption, they are not the same at all.
It _IS_ the same.
DeCSS was about breaking encryption, but if you followed any of the legal suits against DVD John and others, the problem wasn't the decryption of the DVD.. but the ability to distribute the unencrypted stream.
That's where the damages came in and the case was made. That's what made it circumventing a protection from distribution technology using reverse engineering (illegal) vs circumventing a technology using reverse engineering (legal).
So let me repeat this. The DMCA concerns itself with one thing and one thing only. COPYRIGHTABLE WORKS.
Whether you distribute the circumvention technology to unprotect copyrightable works, or a product that can read distributed copyrightable works, under the letter of the law, you can be held under the DMCA and any WIPO compliant country will do the same.
Do I think Wizards would act on it? Probably not. Can they legally act on it? Certainly, there exists precedent.
But we don't want that. PCGen respects the publishers' wishes, and that includes Wizards, too. For example, we withdrew the Green Ronin dataset from the more current releases, because Green Ronin asked us to (or rather to limit then according to some terms) as they wanted to license their books to another character creation tool. Sure, the old sets are out there, and you can get them anytime even from the PCGen repository, but they haven't been updated to more current PCGen functionality.
Bottom line is, we do not include data set without publisher permission, even if the sources are fully OGC.
It _IS_ the same.
DeCSS was about breaking encryption, but if you followed any of the legal suits against DVD John and others, the problem wasn't the decryption of the DVD.. but the ability to distribute the unencrypted stream.
That's where the damages came in and the case was made. That's what made it circumventing a protection from distribution technology using reverse engineering (illegal) vs circumventing a technology using reverse engineering (legal).
So let me repeat this. The DMCA concerns itself with one thing and one thing only. COPYRIGHTABLE WORKS.
Whether you distribute the circumvention technology to unprotect copyrightable works, or a product that can read distributed copyrightable works, under the letter of the law, you can be held under the DMCA and any WIPO compliant country will do the same.
Do I think Wizards would act on it? Probably not. Can they legally act on it? Certainly, there exists precedent.
No.
No.
Yes.
You saying no doesn't make the precedent suddenly invalid.
I can name five different cases of precedent RIGHT NOW where people that in the eyes of the plaintiff are enabling the infringement of work INDIRECTLY are getting sued or prosecuted under the DMCA.
Look at OLGA.
Look at Bittorrent.
Look at DVD John.
Look at the clip art / thumbnail trial.
Look at Viacom vs Youtube.
FIVE cases where people who had a NON-INFRINGING service were shut down or massively sued because people used the service to commit infringement.
Tell it to the RIAA/MPAA.
Because applications like PCGen would fall just as under the DMCA as DVD DeCss did, and the datafiles will be transferred just like infringing MP3s are, and in either case, the RIAA/MPAA have been extremely successful inside and outside the US.
That said, my point is not to argue, just to state that this piracy stuff WILL occurr, and every one knows it.
Yeah, I used to represent RIAA and MPAA on IP matters before changing firms, so I'm tolerably familiar with the cases, and I disagree with what you are saying.
Maybe you could be more specific as to how you think DMCA would apply to PCGen like it did to DeCSS.
Here is the text of the Statute: DMCA
Yeah, I used to represent RIAA and MPAA on IP matters before changing firms, so I'm tolerably familiar with the cases, and I disagree with what you are saying.
Maybe you could be more specific as to how you think DMCA would apply to PCGen like it did to DeCSS.
Here is the text of the Statute: DMCA
Since you worked for them...
How did your client think it applied to the bittorrent client when they went after Bram Cohen? Their complaint vividly listed the program as a circumvention technology.
How did they think that Youtube/Google violate it, when they have named them in civil action citing direct violations of DMCA code?
Right. Thought so.
Whether you distribute the circumvention technology to unprotect copyrightable works, or a product that can read distributed copyrightable works, under the letter of the law, you can be held under the DMCA and any WIPO compliant country will do the same.
What exactly would PCGen be circumventing or unprotecting? It isn't like the Player's Handbook comes with DRM stuffed into its pages.
Unless I am misunderstanding PCGen, players don't swap datasets directly through the PCGen software.
Can PCGen "read" the core books?
There is no difference between me putting a 4E dataset into my copy of PCGen and me transcribing the 4E books onto Microsoft Word.
Right now scanners and Adobe PDF does more of the stuff that you say would make PCGen liable.
What exactly would PCGen be circumventing or unprotecting? It isn't like the Player's Handbook comes with DRM stuffed into its pages.
Unless I am misunderstanding PCGen, players don't swap datasets directly through the PCGen software.
Can PCGen "read" the core books?
There is no difference between me putting a 4E dataset into my copy of PCGen and me transcribing the 4E books onto Microsoft Word.
Right now scanners and Adobe PDF does more of the stuff that you say would make PCGen liable.
Redcard has no idea what he is talking about, FYI.
Redcard: I asked you a question. If you can find the time to answer it, I will answer yours.
Redcard has no idea what he is talking about, FYI.
Redcard: I asked you a question. If you can find the time to answer it, I will answer yours.
What was your question? I've been scrolling back. I see where you say that they COULD be liable..
What was your question? I've been scrolling back. I see where you say that they COULD be liable..
Under current law, no. There is no "precedent"
There is no potential liability. Under your reasoning, the ISV who creates a word processor could be liable for copyright infringement because a person could type the words of a copyrighted book into the program.
What was your question? I've been scrolling back. I see where you say that they COULD be liable..
Yeah, I used to represent RIAA and MPAA on IP matters before changing firms, so I'm tolerably familiar with the cases, and I disagree with what you are saying.
Maybe you could be more specific as to how you think DMCA would apply to PCGen like it did to DeCSS.
Here is the text of the Statute: DMCA
There ya go - Steerpike's question.
There ya go - Steerpike's question.
I think he took a hike. He's posting on other similar threads since this last post.
I guess you missed this:
So it's less of a "oh my god WoC wants to kill PCGen" situation and more of a "I wonder if WotC will give PCGen a specific license, seeing as the GSL doesn't work for them".
Umm... no I didn't miss it, that's why I said "No third party friendly license, no PCGen dataset." I also said in several posts previous that their fan site license might work for PCGen as well. Of course their fan site license is months off, and WotC has not communicated in any way about what it will be like. Nor have they negotiated any other specific licenses with ANYONE or communicated that they will in fact grant any licenses outside the GSL and the forthcoming fan site license.
I can only speak to what exists now, unless you have some inside line any thoughts on future licenses they release is pure speculation.
What exactly would PCGen be circumventing or unprotecting? It isn't like the Player's Handbook comes with DRM stuffed into its pages.
I think the thing in a nutshell is some lawyer thinks that a character generator allows someone to play D&D without purchasing the product.
Some ID10T class citizen doesn't understand the product they are representing.
So what you have is a calculator being seen as a way to prevent from neding the books.
Rather than some tool that augments the game by helping those who cannot understand the amterial to create a character.
So you can't make a calculator that does anything for D&D like creating characters because a lwayer somewhere thinks that you can play the game with just a character creator.
I think some judges need to be told the truth about it and see what actually comes about when they laugh.
It is like saying someone buying a $1 calculator is circumventing paying taxes for state education since they don't need to go to school to learn how to do math or something.
It is stupid however it is figured.
Or maybe that they see it as illegal competition to DDI.
My question would be how is it even legal for people to make homemade character sheets and a character creator steps over the line when it is the same thing and neither provide the information in a usable format, they are just instructional aids to help learn to create a character where the books themselves do not.
Unless the thing actually gave you the text from each power and such. Then it may go to far, but otherwise you must still have the book in order to paly the game, as the book is a part of the game not just a character creator instruction manual, but also the most important part after you have a character the software will not tell you how to use that for D&D which the book is needed for.
So does a "How-to take apart and rebuild your 2009 Ford Mustang" take any money away form the people who make the Mustang?
But that is jsut my thinking and why it makes no sense to worry with it.
Look at Army Builder for Warhammer and such games. Do they have a license to do that? does GW sue them for it, since they know that you can't play the game with just a list of term like is present in the SRD?
I find this discussion fascinating to no end . . . :-)
I do have a question for RedCard though . . .
If he is still around to answer such questions . . .
Look at Bittorrent.
Look at Viacom vs Youtube.
Not being familiar with any of these five cases RedCard lists to any great extent, I do believe that the crux of these two specific cases revolved around their 'distribution' of IP, something which PCGen will not do withour explicit permission from the IP holder.
How do they then relate to PCGen's circumstance?
Maredudd
What was your question? I've been scrolling back. I see where you say that they COULD be liable..
You made the comparison to DeCSS, Redcard. The question I asked you was how you see PCGen being liable under DMCA in a way that makes the DeCSS analogy valid. In other word, what specific provisions of the DMCA are you thinking of and how, specifically, do you think they apply to PCGen?