2 Concerns/Questions: - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

2 Concerns/Questions:

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
maxflava
Jul 18, 2008 15:45:07 Hi, thanks for your time first off.
In playing a mage for 4th edition we had 2 questions. First can you move a creature with forced movement (like the Thunder wave spell) THROUGH another creature? Normally enemies block movement, but this case seems a bit uncertain

Second, is cloud of daggers hindering terrain? More importantly does a controller have to have a creature make a saving throw every time they would be forced into a cloud of daggers or aoe spells? because the book sounds like it is giving people a chance for a saving throw for not being knocked off a cliff etc. One of best ways to utilize control and dmg for a mage would be to throw them into offensive spell effects but u would be limiting your control and dmg if this is always the case.
#2
drmorganes
Jul 18, 2008 19:22:02 First up, I'm not sure you're using "saving throw" correctly. A saving throw is only used to end an ongoing condition, not to avoid a particular effect.

Regarding forced movement:

I don't see why not, as long as the forced movement was great enough for the moved opponent to pass through the occupied square. Enemies block movement of their opponents; allies can pass through ally-occupied squares without issue.

Second, is cloud of daggers hindering terrain?

No. Cloud of Daggers isn't difficult terrain, because the power doesn't say it's difficult terrain.

More importantly does a controller have to have a creature make a saving throw every time they would be forced into a cloud of daggers or aoe spells?

No again. See my first comment above. Entering a square covered by a Cloud of Daggers does damage equal to the wizard's Wisdom modifier (minimum of 1), period. There is no option to avoid this damage: you enter the square (or start your turn within it) and you take damage.

because the book sounds like it is giving people a chance for a saving throw for not being knocked off a cliff etc. One of best ways to utilize control and dmg for a mage would be to throw them into offensive spell effects but u would be limiting your control and dmg if this is always the case.

I'm not sure I understand this statement.

There is no "saving throw" to avoid a push effect. One avoids such effects by not being hit by the original attack roll. If you're hit, you get moved. If you happen to be standing near a cliff and you get hit, you're going to go over.

Properly use, Cloud of Daggers is a nice damage boost. Consider:

A party faces A_BadGuy_01. The wizard (Int 18, Wis 16) rolls high initiative and drops a Cloud of Daggers on A_BadGuy_01. The attack hits and the spell inflicts 1d6+4 force damage. When A_BadGuy_01 acts, he takes an additional 3 damage before he moves out of the square. The party's striker then attacks A_BadGuy_01 and slides him back into the cloud, doing 3 damage upon entry (on top of whatever hurt came from his strike). A_BadGuy_01 takes another 3 damage at the start of his next turn, before he can move out of the cloud.

Total damage from Cloud of Daggers: 1d6+13.

I don't understand how this is limiting "control and damage"...
#3
galeigh
Jul 18, 2008 21:20:40 As for moving a character Through and inhabited square, I'd treat it as a ranged attack Vs. Reflex, if you miss the character you're involuntarily moving goes through no problem and the person inhabiting the square effectively dodges the flying body. if you're physically moving the character (as in pushing them), treat it as melee vs reflex..

if you actually hit the person inhabiting the square, I'd say they have to make a saving throw to see if they stay standing. Damage would be the improvised weapon table.
#4
malcapricornis
Jul 18, 2008 22:23:46
I'm not sure I understand this statement.

There is no "saving throw" to avoid a push effect. One avoids such effects by not being hit by the original attack roll. If you're hit, you get moved. If you happen to be standing near a cliff and you get hit, you're going to go over.

You make the saving throw to avoid the forced movement off the ledge. See PHB pg 284 under Falling.

That said, he appears to be extrapolating that rule into being forced into any dangerous situation, like Cloud of Daggers. It's an interesting question. Being knocked prone instead of being pushed into may not be terribly unbalanced if you make your save. It seems like RAW you don't have the option to make the save though to avoid generic hazards like the AoE powers.

Concerning the Cloud of Daggers damage. If you enter it or start there you take the damage. No save or attack roll needed.
#5
malcapricornis
Jul 18, 2008 22:27:46
As for moving a character Through and inhabited square, I'd treat it as a ranged attack Vs. Reflex, if you miss the character you're involuntarily moving goes through no problem and the person inhabiting the square effectively dodges the flying body. if you're physically moving the character (as in pushing them), treat it as melee vs reflex..

if you actually hit the person inhabiting the square, I'd say they have to make a saving throw to see if they stay standing. Damage would be the improvised weapon table.

You have to read the power description to figure out how the attack works.
#6
drmorganes
Jul 19, 2008 8:00:56 Thanks for that correction, malcapricornis. I'd missed it before now.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 maxflava Jul 18, 2008 15:45:07	Hi, thanks for your time first off. In playing a mage for 4th edition we had 2 questions. First can you move a creature with forced movement (like the Thunder wave spell) THROUGH another creature? Normally enemies block movement, but this case seems a bit uncertain Second, is cloud of daggers hindering terrain? More importantly does a controller have to have a creature make a saving throw every time they would be forced into a cloud of daggers or aoe spells? because the book sounds like it is giving people a chance for a saving throw for not being knocked off a cliff etc. One of best ways to utilize control and dmg for a mage would be to throw them into offensive spell effects but u would be limiting your control and dmg if this is always the case.
#2 drmorganes Jul 18, 2008 19:22:02	First up, I'm not sure you're using "saving throw" correctly. A saving throw is only used to end an ongoing condition, not to avoid a particular effect. Regarding forced movement: I don't see why not, as long as the forced movement was great enough for the moved opponent to pass through the occupied square. Enemies block movement of their opponents; allies can pass through ally-occupied squares without issue. Second, is cloud of daggers hindering terrain? No. Cloud of Daggers isn't difficult terrain, because the power doesn't say it's difficult terrain. More importantly does a controller have to have a creature make a saving throw every time they would be forced into a cloud of daggers or aoe spells? No again. See my first comment above. Entering a square covered by a Cloud of Daggers does damage equal to the wizard's Wisdom modifier (minimum of 1), period. There is no option to avoid this damage: you enter the square (or start your turn within it) and you take damage. because the book sounds like it is giving people a chance for a saving throw for not being knocked off a cliff etc. One of best ways to utilize control and dmg for a mage would be to throw them into offensive spell effects but u would be limiting your control and dmg if this is always the case. I'm not sure I understand this statement. There is no "saving throw" to avoid a push effect. One avoids such effects by not being hit by the original attack roll. If you're hit, you get moved. If you happen to be standing near a cliff and you get hit, you're going to go over. Properly use, Cloud of Daggers is a nice damage boost. Consider: A party faces A_BadGuy_01. The wizard (Int 18, Wis 16) rolls high initiative and drops a Cloud of Daggers on A_BadGuy_01. The attack hits and the spell inflicts 1d6+4 force damage. When A_BadGuy_01 acts, he takes an additional 3 damage before he moves out of the square. The party's striker then attacks A_BadGuy_01 and slides him back into the cloud, doing 3 damage upon entry (on top of whatever hurt came from his strike). A_BadGuy_01 takes another 3 damage at the start of his next turn, before he can move out of the cloud. Total damage from Cloud of Daggers: 1d6+13. I don't understand how this is limiting "control and damage"...
#3 galeigh Jul 18, 2008 21:20:40	As for moving a character Through and inhabited square, I'd treat it as a ranged attack Vs. Reflex, if you miss the character you're involuntarily moving goes through no problem and the person inhabiting the square effectively dodges the flying body. if you're physically moving the character (as in pushing them), treat it as melee vs reflex.. if you actually hit the person inhabiting the square, I'd say they have to make a saving throw to see if they stay standing. Damage would be the improvised weapon table.
#4 malcapricornis Jul 18, 2008 22:23:46	I'm not sure I understand this statement. There is no "saving throw" to avoid a push effect. One avoids such effects by not being hit by the original attack roll. If you're hit, you get moved. If you happen to be standing near a cliff and you get hit, you're going to go over. You make the saving throw to avoid the forced movement off the ledge. See PHB pg 284 under Falling. That said, he appears to be extrapolating that rule into being forced into any dangerous situation, like Cloud of Daggers. It's an interesting question. Being knocked prone instead of being pushed into may not be terribly unbalanced if you make your save. It seems like RAW you don't have the option to make the save though to avoid generic hazards like the AoE powers. Concerning the Cloud of Daggers damage. If you enter it or start there you take the damage. No save or attack roll needed.
#5 malcapricornis Jul 18, 2008 22:27:46	As for moving a character Through and inhabited square, I'd treat it as a ranged attack Vs. Reflex, if you miss the character you're involuntarily moving goes through no problem and the person inhabiting the square effectively dodges the flying body. if you're physically moving the character (as in pushing them), treat it as melee vs reflex.. if you actually hit the person inhabiting the square, I'd say they have to make a saving throw to see if they stay standing. Damage would be the improvised weapon table. You have to read the power description to figure out how the attack works.
#6 drmorganes Jul 19, 2008 8:00:56	Thanks for that correction, malcapricornis. I'd missed it before now.