Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 chanter_hound Apr 13, 2010 21:10:40	I'm playing a 2.0 game, and my character does two things that annoys me. I know, its wierd right? Basically, he is a scythe weilder, and he uses trip. This is the first thing that annoys me. Mostly that somethings are generally going to be too tough to trip or too easy to trip. (Like a 800 pound minotaur shouldn't be too tripable. but at the same time, having even 10 dex gives them currently a 50% chance to avoid being tripped.) So I'm looking for something out there to better even the playing feild on tripping. The second thing is Called Shot: Head. My character uses a scythe exactly for this. After tripping them, he would call shot head. The problem is, that its too easy. I don't want to stop call shotting the head, but I want the enemy to have some chance to live through the attack. (Maybe I hit the head but only knicked the ear..) The DM currently has it if I hit, it dies. Which means that other players start doing it. Which means the DM may get upset and use it.. which means someone dies. I want to bring in a system for the DM so that even if I call shot:head, I don't exactly kill them every time. Can someone help me on this?
#2 oldguygaming Apr 13, 2010 23:21:20	my character does two things that annoys me. Sit your character down and firmly explain that when you are around you are in charge, and he has to do what you say. Be sure to explain that when you are away, he can do whatever he likes. Hopefully, he'll be understanding and abide by your wishes. If not, hide the knives and scissors!
#3 johnkretzer Apr 14, 2010 11:30:37	I'm playing a 2.0 game, and my character does two things that annoys me. I know, its wierd right? Basically, he is a scythe weilder, and he uses trip. This is the first thing that annoys me. Mostly that somethings are generally going to be too tough to trip or too easy to trip. (Like a 800 pound minotaur shouldn't be too tripable. but at the same time, having even 10 dex gives them currently a 50% chance to avoid being tripped.) So I'm looking for something out there to better even the playing feild on tripping. The second thing is Called Shot: Head. My character uses a scythe exactly for this. After tripping them, he would call shot head. The problem is, that its too easy. I don't want to stop call shotting the head, but I want the enemy to have some chance to live through the attack. (Maybe I hit the head but only knicked the ear..) The DM currently has it if I hit, it dies. Which means that other players start doing it. Which means the DM may get upset and use it.. which means someone dies. I want to bring in a system for the DM so that even if I call shot:head, I don't exactly kill them every time. Can someone help me on this? I believe there was rules someplace in 2nd edition that covered calling shots and it's effects.  If I remember right you imposed penalties...like a shot to the the leg reduced movement...etc.  But it didn't do additional damage....I think it was in the 2nd Ed DMG...but it has been awhile so I can't tell you. As for your trip problem I don't remember how trip worked in 2nd Ed so I can't help you there.
#4 chaosturtle Apr 14, 2010 13:49:56	Called shot is a legit thing...a headshot was something like -8 or -10 to hit.  I might be getting it confused with the optional crit table, but I believe there was some roll you made to see the actual result, there was a decent chance to get an instant kill and even the lower roles were pretty good, like inflicting blindness.  Best advice I could give is stop playing with called shots, its either that or the DM is going to have to houserule them as it really is a matter of time before everyone else starts doing them and battles just turn into declaring called shot head all the time.
#5 chanter_hound Apr 14, 2010 15:05:42	Well damn. Thats what I was thinking I'd need to do, kinda sad though. One of the key fluffy things I had doesn't play well in mechanics.. and yeah.. eventually combat will be all Called Shot: Head. Doesn't help that my character also has better stats then everyone else.
#6 5m4llp0x Apr 14, 2010 15:10:48	Called Shots and damage effects are further covered in the Combat and Tactics book. Before you get into using called shots ask yourself this: Do you WANT the GM using these? Because you will end up missing legs and arms within a few levels. You will also end up dealing with the assassin on the roof with a crossbow who has now chosen to make your head his new coathanger. Congradulations, make a new character.
#7 chanter_hound Apr 14, 2010 15:33:16	That would only hold true if the DM was an unintelligent little vindictive prick of a dm who could only think of using called shots if the players do. My DM is a smart and cunning type that would just put us against a trap of impossible odds.. say for example 30 pirates on a boat, while our boat starts sinking. Then if we manage to escape, she brings in 10 or so more enemies to fight on a tiny thing of land that we cannot hide from. Oh and all the characters have lost most of thier equipement. (Cept mine, I did actually take the time to go and find my scythe on the boat, while the others just grabbed random items.)
#8 rian_king Apr 14, 2010 20:06:47	funny thing is I recenlty read a 2nd editionDMG and read the rule on called shots.  It said that the called shot couldn't cause death or cripple the enemy.  It will only cause normal damage You maybe thinking of hackmaster with the -10 penailty Edited cause I called my friend to confirm this
#9 5m4llp0x Apr 14, 2010 21:55:58	That would only hold true if the DM was an unintelligent little vindictive prick of a dm who could only think of using called shots if the players do. My DM is a smart and cunning type that would just put us against a trap of impossible odds.. say for example 30 pirates on a boat, while our boat starts sinking. Then if we manage to escape, she brings in 10 or so more enemies to fight on a tiny thing of land that we cannot hide from. Oh and all the characters have lost most of thier equipement. (Cept mine, I did actually take the time to go and find my scythe on the boat, while the others just grabbed random items.) Or, you know, if the GM doesn't want you insta-gibbing boss battles. Tripping is understandable tt makes for an interesting change in combat. Insta-killing everything? I'll just go play Unreal. Also: Losing equipment and a boat is really really lame, man. I'd be pissed if I sank 30K gold into a boat only to have the GM say "Guess what? Time for it to go down like the Titanic!" Or, hell, losing my gear and gold only to be forced to earn it all again? Yeah, no thanks.
#10 chanter_hound Apr 15, 2010 1:45:04	funny thing is I recenlty read a 2nd editionDMG and read the rule on called shots.  It said that the called shot couldn't cause death or cripple the enemy.  It will only cause normal damage You maybe thinking of hackmaster with the -10 penailty Edited cause I called my friend to confirm this Nah, I was thinking called shots. The DM said.. Oh so you hit the head.. It dies? At which point I shrugged. I won't lie, I wanted the one monster I did hit to die, but I wasn't expecting it too. I was expecting there would be some more dice rolls that would say I cut the monsters eye or nicked its nose or something. Wasn't a boss battle. Just your every day normal Mooks. But after we got done with the game, I began to think.. and kinda was sad that call shoting the enemy would cause such an effect. Also: No we didn't lose a boat. We just happened to be on a boat. And it was also the start of the campain, I hadn't even bothered to write doing any equipment except for a normal Scythe. (I still don't know what starting gold packages are.) Basically three out of four players were held captive in the prison cell of the boat. My Wolven Folk Lupin, A minotaur and a half-elf. (My character was sick from being on the boat until battle started.) Pirates attacked, and began to sink the boat we were on. The forth party member, an elf,  suddenly ran down because he felt it was a good idea to get the three prisoners, two of which are very freeking scary. (Me and the Mino.) We start running out, and I get hit with the mast. I run back in, and hunt down my scythe. We fight for about two rounds before having to jump into the water to swim. At which point we almost all start with nothing. (mino grabed a few random weapons, I had my scythe, the Elf  still had everything of his.) And if you are wondering, yes, we defeated all the enemies and actually escaped her first plot hook, which was us being recaptured.
#11 rian_king Apr 15, 2010 7:10:41	funny thing is I recenlty read a 2nd editionDMG and read the rule on called shots.  It said that the called shot couldn't cause death or cripple the enemy.  It will only cause normal damage You maybe thinking of hackmaster with the -10 penailty Edited cause I called my friend to confirm this Nah, I was thinking called shots. The DM said.. Oh so you hit the head.. It dies? At which point I shrugged. I won't lie, I wanted the one monster I did hit to die, but I wasn't expecting it too. I was expecting there would be some more dice rolls that would say I cut the monsters eye or nicked its nose or something. Wasn't a boss battle. Just your every day normal Mooks. But after we got done with the game, I began to think.. and kinda was sad that call shoting the enemy would cause such an effect. Also: No we didn't lose a boat. We just happened to be on a boat. And it was also the start of the campain, I hadn't even bothered to write doing any equipment except for a normal Scythe. (I still don't know what starting gold packages are.) Basically three out of four players were held captive in the prison cell of the boat. My Wolven Folk Lupin, A minotaur and a half-elf. (My character was sick from being on the boat until battle started.) Pirates attacked, and began to sink the boat we were on. The forth party member, an elf,  suddenly ran down because he felt it was a good idea to get the three prisoners, two of which are very freeking scary. (Me and the Mino.) We start running out, and I get hit with the mast. I run back in, and hunt down my scythe. We fight for about two rounds before having to jump into the water to swim. At which point we almost all start with nothing. (mino grabed a few random weapons, I had my scythe, the Elf  still had everything of his.) And if you are wondering, yes, we defeated all the enemies and actually escaped her first plot hook, which was us being recaptured. but doesn't answer some of your question that called shot can't kill a creature and only deal normal damage
#12 chaosturtle Apr 15, 2010 18:56:18	I don't have my 2e books on hand, but I'm fairly confident called shot has to do -something- otherwise it'd just be the same as a normal attack.
#13 rian_king Apr 16, 2010 13:32:56	I don't have my 2e books on hand, but I'm fairly confident called shot has to do -something- otherwise it'd just be the same as a normal attack. If you need to shoot something out of the monsters hand.  If your arrows are bouncing off the death machine coming your way and you need to shoot into the arrow slots. These are examples of called shot according to the definitions of called shot in 2nd. It's not to make instant death or cripple a monster directly
#14 bone_naga Apr 17, 2010 11:20:23	In 2e called shots allowed you to hit an item/weapon or to aim for a specific body part. The attack still did normal damage. If you were using the critical hit rules from Combat & Tactics, a critical hit automatically affected the area you attacked rather than rolling randomly on the hit location chart. The effect was determined normally as per the critical hit charts. If you were using the partial armor rules from C&T, you could use a called shot to bypass someone's AC by hitting an unarmored area (so if that idiot in full plate didn't wear a helmet, you could take the -4 penalty and hit AC 10 instead of AC 1). Finally, you could try to destroy something the target was holding or wearing (like shattering a vial of acid in the evil wizard's hand). Those were the only special effects for called shots. There was no crippling or instant death. Also note that particularly difficult called shots could have more than a -4 penalty. Finally you take a +1 initiative penalty for the called shot. There is one more note for called shots. This is an optional rule tacked onto an already optional rule. The DM can allow you to make a called shot that deals no damage, but forces an automatic knockdown or retreat. Personally, I would never have allowed it for the automatic trip (since that makes it much better than a normal trip attempt). However, for the trip, there were two ways to handle it. One was an opposed STR roll vs the target's STR or DEX plus various modifiers for differences in size, extra legs, etc. The other was a simple saving throw vs paralyzation. I assume you are going with the opposed roll, so here are some things that might help: -Weapons that grant bonuses to trip (I think the scythe does, so make sure you are taking that into account) -You get a +3 bonus if the target was unaware of the attack -Use Enlarge or similar magic to give you a size boost -Hit the target while he's moving (-6 penalty to your check if he's stationary) Also, it may seem unduly hard to trip enemies, especially certain creatures, but keep in mind just how powerful the prone status is in 2e, and you can make the attempt round after round until you succeed. Finally, if you convince your DM to use the knockdown rules from C&T, I believe the scythe has a pretty decent knockdown die, so you might be able to trip enemies on a normal hit (bypassing the normal opposed roll and doing damage along with the trip).
#15 mstevenm76 Apr 17, 2010 16:34:07	Everything Bone Naga said looks pretty acurate to me. Combat and Tactics is a great resource. In my 2nd edition games I was a big fan of critical hits because they added that extra bit of excitement and bragging rights for the players and , as the DM, I'd use them relatively sparingly against the players. C&T provides specialized charts for each type of weapon against each body part. Here are the rules for critical hits from C&T. "Critical Hits Although critical hits are mentioned in the core AD&D rules as an option, this system works differently than any provided there. A critical hit may occur when a character rolls exceptionally well during his attack. The attack roll must be a natural 18 or higher, and the roll must hit the target by at least 5. A 1st-level fighter with a THAC0 of 20 can achieve a critical against an opponent with AC 5, since he can roll a 20 and hit him with 5 to spare, but he can't get a critical against an opponent with AC 4 (or better).      As a basic rule, critical hits inflict double damage. However, Chapter Six is devoted to the topic of critical hits and presents an integrated system that accounts for the strength of the blow, the location injured, and a dash of luck.      If PCs can get critical hits with great attack rolls, monsters should be able to as well. Otherwise, the balance of the game shifts in favor of the player characters." In my games, when it came to critical hits and called shots, I ignored the natural roll and said that if you hit by 5 or more then it was a critical hit.  The attacked creature gets to make a saving throw vs. Death and if failed then you roll on the severity tables. Here are the rules for Severity in C&T. "Severity The second roll on the critical hit charts is for severity. The severity of a hit is determined by the relative size of the attacker's weapon and the defender. Weapon vs. Target Size        Effect     Di(c)e Weapon size is < target size    Minor     1d6 Weapon size is = target size    Major      2d4 Weapon size is > target size    Severe    2d6 Weapon is two sizes larger      Mortal    2d8 The di(c)e indicated is the type rolled for that severity. For example, if a human armed with a long sword (size M) is fighting a gnoll (size L), he rolls 1d6 for the critical hit's severity because the long sword's size is smaller than the gnoll's size. If the weapon is two sizes larger than the target, it is possible to reach the 13+ column of the chart. These hits inflict triple damage dice, even if the victim passes his saving throw to avoid the effects of the critical hit. The arrows and bolts fired from bows and crossbows are considered size M weapons, even though the missiles themselves are Small. Heavy crossbow bolts are considered size L." For your Scythe I'm including the severity chart for Slashing weapons vs. Head (Humanoid). Location: Head (10)      Severity      Effect      1–3              No unusual effect       4                  Head grazed, stunned 1d3 rounds, minor bleeding      5                  Head struck, helm removed, victim stunned 1 round; –2 penalty to attack                          rolls, minor bleeding if victim had no helm      6                  Head struck, minor bleeding, victim blinded for 2d4 rounds by blood in                          eyes      7                  Helm damaged, face injured, stunned 1d6 rounds, minor bleeding, 1/2                          move, –4 penalty to attacks      8                  Skull broken, helm damaged, victim reduced to 0 hit points, major                          bleeding      9                  Throat injured, severe bleeding      10                Skull destroyed, victim reduced to 0 hp, severe bleeding, Int, Wis, Cha all                          drop by 1/2 permanently      11                Throat destroyed, victim killed      12                Head severed, immediate death      13+             As 12 above with tripled damage dice Hope this helps. I have the entire Combat and Tactics book in Microsoft Word format. If you'd like a copy let me know and we can figure out a way to get it to you.
#16 chanter_hound Apr 18, 2010 1:53:23	In 2e called shots allowed you to hit an item/weapon or to aim for a specific body part. The attack still did normal damage. If you were using the critical hit rules from Combat & Tactics, a critical hit automatically affected the area you attacked rather than rolling randomly on the hit location chart. The effect was determined normally as per the critical hit charts. If you were using the partial armor rules from C&T, you could use a called shot to bypass someone's AC by hitting an unarmored area (so if that idiot in full plate didn't wear a helmet, you could take the -4 penalty and hit AC 10 instead of AC 1). Finally, you could try to destroy something the target was holding or wearing (like shattering a vial of acid in the evil wizard's hand). Those were the only special effects for called shots. There was no crippling or instant death. Also note that particularly difficult called shots could have more than a -4 penalty. Finally you take a +1 initiative penalty for the called shot. There is one more note for called shots. This is an optional rule tacked onto an already optional rule. The DM can allow you to make a called shot that deals no damage, but forces an automatic knockdown or retreat. Personally, I would never have allowed it for the automatic trip (since that makes it much better than a normal trip attempt). However, for the trip, there were two ways to handle it. One was an opposed STR roll vs the target's STR or DEX plus various modifiers for differences in size, extra legs, etc. The other was a simple saving throw vs paralyzation. I assume you are going with the opposed roll, so here are some things that might help: -Weapons that grant bonuses to trip (I think the scythe does, so make sure you are taking that into account) -You get a +3 bonus if the target was unaware of the attack -Use Enlarge or similar magic to give you a size boost -Hit the target while he's moving (-6 penalty to your check if he's stationary) Also, it may seem unduly hard to trip enemies, especially certain creatures, but keep in mind just how powerful the prone status is in 2e, and you can make the attempt round after round until you succeed. Finally, if you convince your DM to use the knockdown rules from C&T, I believe the scythe has a pretty decent knockdown die, so you might be able to trip enemies on a normal hit (bypassing the normal opposed roll and doing damage along with the trip). Well for the most part, this week I didn't call shot head until I wasn't allowed to use a scythe to "backstab". Last week they wouldn't allow me to back stab at first because they said I had to be using a piercing weapon. (Scythe is of course both slashing and piercing.) So I said, Okay fine. It still gives me a +4 to hit because they are expecting the shadow to suddenly be a scythe weilding necromancer of doom. Called shot head. So from now on, Called shot head will only be used at the start of combat, when I can use what should have been a backstab. Knockdown I'm not actually finding to be very powerful at all. Not like 3.5 knockdown where you take an AoO for standing. I've actually found new and intresting ways to knock people down too. (Dm gave me gloves of far reach, giving me telekinese at will. So I've now starting killing goblins and throwing the corpses at other goblins. and yes, I know the real gloves probally have some limitation on amount per day or something, but she tends to ignore that, as I've brought it up a couple of times with other items I've gotten.)
#17 bone_naga Apr 20, 2010 20:27:53	Well prone might not provoke AoOs (I thought it did but upon rereading I don't see anything about it), but it does require a full-move action (in other words, if you stand up from the prone, you get no other actions that round).
#18 chanter_hound Apr 20, 2010 21:19:40	Hmm.. I never noticed that myself. I've knocked targets prone so few times because the current set up allowed them to roll a dex check, which most have 15+ dex so they avoid it almost every time. Then of course, I also manage to do enough damage to actually kill them on the second attack. Currently Called Shot: Head.. with the instant death rules is only being applied to attacks that should be "back stabs" For some reason, the DM can't allow me to just do x2 damage because a scythe is a big weapon, but is cool with me being able to insta kill things. I just don't get it. I think part of it, is that they think my scythe is shaped like a farming scythe, While I see it being more of a quarterstaff with a blade on one end. (course the one thing I did attemt to sneak attack, and changed it to a called shot instead because they said no, I would have killed with the x2 damage anyways.)
#19 rian_king Apr 21, 2010 11:17:11	Hmm.. I never noticed that myself. I've knocked targets prone so few times because the current set up allowed them to roll a dex check, which most have 15+ dex so they avoid it almost every time. Then of course, I also manage to do enough damage to actually kill them on the second attack. Currently Called Shot: Head.. with the instant death rules is only being applied to attacks that should be "back stabs" For some reason, the DM can't allow me to just do x2 damage because a scythe is a big weapon, but is cool with me being able to insta kill things. I just don't get it. I think part of it, is that they think my scythe is shaped like a farming scythe, While I see it being more of a quarterstaff with a blade on one end. (course the one thing I did attemt to sneak attack, and changed it to a called shot instead because they said no, I would have killed with the x2 damage anyways.) what are you looking for? I have shown what the written rules are for called shot.  I don't know if your DM is aware of this.  Maybe you should give him a heads up. I see your complaining that the called shot you do is not doing twice the damage, but instant death is a good substitute
#20 chanter_hound Apr 21, 2010 12:21:32	Not really looking for anything anymore. DM is pretty much set on, if I hit.. the creature dies. I've tried suggesting a few other things to lower that. But by me moving so I'm only using it to do my backstab as a called shot, it lowers the likely hood that the party will begin trying to do the same thing as me, as it also pretty much only works once per combat. I just find it wierd that using the x2 damage of a backstab isn't allowed, being the weaker of the two effects, and instant death is.
#21 rian_king Apr 21, 2010 12:58:31	does he know the RAW on called shot?
#22 chanter_hound Apr 21, 2010 22:12:45	I'm pretty sure she does, as she has said something about having someone who used it before. But some of the question is.. Which rules exactly? Allow me to explain, what we are playing is based mostly in 2.0. However, they have drudge somethings up from 1st edition, and brought some things down from 3rd. So we kinda have a fusion between the three. There is also several houserules that have apperently been created over the years that they have played. Like Mana being used for casting spells, instead of memorization and other things... allowing us to easily spam low level spells over and over and over again if we really wanted to. I'll talk with her a little more. But it will be pretty sad if the end result is both Callshot: Head does normal damage (I'm still having to hit through the entire armor class. Even if all they have is a chain mail thong.) and I can't do the x2 damage for backstabbing.
#23 rian_king Apr 22, 2010 7:14:30	the rules on how called shot work as raw
#24 chanter_hound Apr 22, 2010 8:41:53	Not what I ment there, but okay.
#25 rian_king Apr 22, 2010 13:59:01	Not what I ment there, but okay. thought you were asking me what rule was I refering to
#26 chanter_hound Apr 22, 2010 20:35:33	Nope. Was just saying that while 2.0 is the base, She's got a bit scattered things around here and there. But for the most part, this is solved. Limiting it only to when i could have normally do sneak attacks, makes it so that combat doesn't devolve, and the DM doesn't want the target to die, then all she has to do is make it do double damage instead. (Soon to be triple)
#27 bone_naga Apr 23, 2010 18:29:28	Hmm.. I never noticed that myself. I've knocked targets prone so few times because the current set up allowed them to roll a dex check, which most have 15+ dex so they avoid it almost every time. Ah no wonder you have so much trouble with tripping. It's not a DEX check to avoid the trip. It is a DEX or STR check OPPOSED by your STR check. If you win, they are tripped, regardless of whether or not they would have succeeded at a normal ability check.