| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1revan54115110Sep 09, 2009 9:43:22 |
Ok now i am playing war blade in this campaign and why do i think i have to have a long chat with my group Ok the problem is we have a my war blade, a cleric, sorcerer , and a spell thief. And the main problem is that the cleric does not have the ability to spontaneously get healing spells (but he can wound and cast summon natures ally) and he never gets enough healing spells ready, he also has no interest in being a dedicated healer. Is there any options i can consider being before the group or our we dead meat from the start ? |
| #2Ka_D-ArgoSep 09, 2009 9:59:30 | Have the cleric take the Touch of Healing Feat from Complete Champion (if allowed): Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level spells. Benefit: As long as you have a conjuration (healing) spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast, you can spend a standard action to touch a target creature and heal 3 points of damage per level of the highest-level conjuration (healing) spell you have available to cast. You can use this ability only on a target that has been reduced to one-half or fewer of its total hit points. The effect ends once you've healed the subject up to half its normal maximum hit points. This ability has no effect on creatures that can't be healed by cure spells. |
| #3kirjotusviheSep 09, 2009 11:16:26 | Wand of cure light wounds. Solves all your problems. |
| #4brentnewhallSep 09, 2009 11:46:32 | Get into a couple of tough fights where everyone almost dies, thus illustrating the importance of healing. This will probably encourage your cleric friend to take on the appropriate role. |
| #5jgumbyrxSep 09, 2009 12:03:03 |
I like this. this way, you only have to memorize one healing spell each day (albiet your highest spell level if you want it to be significant). |
| #6Ka_D-ArgoSep 09, 2009 13:09:07 |
Yeah, we had a Favored Soul in our group that had that feat. It makes it extremely nice during downtime. You are guaranteed to keep your party at least at half health without spending up all your healing spells. |
| #7i_roll_onesSep 09, 2009 13:09:36 | Trying to force your cleric friend to heal, if he doesn't want to, will probably just result in him getting bored and walking away. There is a good chance he picked it to be a CoDzillia, not a healbot while everyone else has fun. Yes, some people like healing, but others detest it. See if, however, you can convince him to pick up the feat in emergencies, as it would expand his repertoire nicely. Just don't expect him to whip it out if you have a boo-boo, unless you're missing two arms and a leg. Therefore, wands of Vigor and Lesser healing are probably going to be your best bet. Potions might also be a good idea. Er...What about a hireling NPC healer? |
| #8Ka_D-ArgoSep 09, 2009 14:19:41 |
Maybe its just bad stereotyping, but with the multitude of classes there are in 3.5, if someone chooses to play a cleric. There are certain things your group whould be able to reasonbly expect. From an adventuring standpoint, if you have this group of melee types go look for a cleric and then this guy pops up and says "Yeah, I'm a cleric". So they heqad off to battle and when the party actually needs him to heal, he replies "Oh, you wanted a cleric that can heal. Yeah, i'm not that guy". I would expect the group to drop him and go find someone who could restore their life. Yes, it's possible to adventure with less than optimal builds. But, I would think that there should be a very good reason why this group would continue as such. The DM may not make magic items "that" readily available. Heaven forbid a time sensitive quest, and the heroes have to rest for 10 days to gain all their HP back. Now, if the group chooses to adventure that way, then so be it. One of my current groups just lost our healer (she moved), now, the rest of the party built their characters around the fact that we had a healer. It's a low magic campaign (as far as items anyway), I'm hoping the DM will allow me (or any of us) to take the leadership feat and make a healer cohort, cause no one wants to really re-roll their character. Those are just my thoughts on the subject. |
| #9sallaSep 09, 2009 14:24:32 |
This. Clerics in 3rd never cast healing spells. They cast save-or-dies or buff up and kick butt. Healing is done post-combat with wands. |
| #10minchazoSep 09, 2009 14:46:37 | If your DM allows custom magic items, you *could* make a 'rock of healing' based on the Cleric's 0-lvl heal spell. Let me see if I can calculate it correctly: Spell lvl x caster lvl x 1800 (command word activated) = 0.5 x 1 x 1800 = 900 gp Now you can heal 1 hp as a standard action! |
| #11pyro_azerSep 09, 2009 14:53:55 |
One of these. You do not need a healer and forcing someone into the role is going to result in someone not having fun. |
| #12sockmonkey66Sep 09, 2009 15:24:23 | You could just have him swap characters with someone who wants the job. |
| #13secretarysevenSep 09, 2009 17:13:09 | Healing in 3.5 is not a necessary job, nor does it require a dedicated player to take care of. In-combat healing often elongates the encounter and makes it feel less dangerous (and thus more boring) to everyone involved. If you feel that you "must" have healing, when you have a d12 hit die and maneuvers available like Wall of Blades or Exorcism of Steel, I don't know what to say. If you're still worried, take Toughness. Or cloister yourself up with a heavy shield and full plate. Or re-roll a Crusader. Remember, you could have a healing proficient powerful cleric who can cast every heal spell in the world, but he'll be completely useless if the monster who's threatening the squishy guy dies in one hit. Completely avoiding damage by just killing the monster hurting you is the best way to avoid damage. Meanwhile, buy a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. If you're using the Magic Item Compendium, buy a Belt of Healing. Ask the cleric to prepare spells like Aid. |
| #14kujihnSep 09, 2009 19:01:50 | Ehhhhh .... people should play how they want to play. I would think your DM would just augment the game once discerning how players like to play. Three years ago my last-last group had a party with no real 'healer' type ... and alot of our accolades came from purely manipulating others to do our dirty work. RP intensive over anything else. I don't see why your dm would be any different ... have a whole lot of rp moments, as well as no protracted combat scenarios .... more so high-levelled, short intensity combats that would lead to longer party resting periods, or activities of less physical stress. |
| #15mynameisjakeSep 09, 2009 19:53:40 |
This would be closer to Fast Healing 1, and therefore much more expensive. |
| #16pyro_azerSep 09, 2009 20:56:26 |
Except fast healing requires no actions and this would require a standard. |
| #17KruskSep 09, 2009 20:57:27 |
To that sounds like the adventuring parties fault. "Hey are you a priest? Awesome, come with us. What? No I don't care who your diety is, nor do I care about any of the basic tennants of your faith. Your a holy man, and thats all I need to know."..... After battle "What do you mean you are a battle cleric of Kord? Don't all religions basically have the same tennants? Be solmn, boring, heal anyone who comes near you, and pray a lot?"
And thats just funny, considering it is generally optimal to not play a healbot but instead be a better melee combatant than a fighter, while simultaneously casting spells almost as good (Arguably as good as) as a wizard. Buy potions, wand of lessor vigor, wand of cure light wounds, belt of battle or... well hey onewinged4ngle actually did a pretty good explanation right here. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... ... If you want to mention optimal builds. (My post came off very aggressive and I really did not mean for it to be. I apologize ahead of time) |
| #18mynameisjakeSep 09, 2009 21:30:54 |
Which is why it would get a discount off the price for Fast Healing 1, not the price for an unlimited use 0 lvl spell.
|
| #19williamtannerSep 10, 2009 10:47:32 | I have to agree with i_roll_ones. The character is who the character is. If you don't want to adventure with that character, you can stop playing, play a different character yourself, or pester the other player to be your servant. I don't think you are justified in choosing the latter. The cleric in the game I DM likes to wade into battle without buffing or the like. He's trying to enjoy the game too. Perhaps you could use better tactics that reduce your potential for injury... |
| #20Ka_D-ArgoSep 10, 2009 10:51:44 |
True, but do you know what every faith believes or does? I know some of the basics, but would expect (maybe wrongly so) that most holy men would kind, if not enlightened, individuals. I'm not saying all clerics should heal. But it is something that should be worked out at character creation so those things can be taken into consideration. And thats just funny, considering it is generally optimal to not play a healbot but instead be a better melee combatant than a fighter, while simultaneously casting spells almost as good (Arguably as good as) as a wizard. Probably my fault for never playing a cleric like you (and many others on here) are suggesting. I guess my contention comes from not having a cleric that can heal (or is willing to), as opposed to not having a cleric at all. Our group gauges what challenges they can continue doing by what healing power is available, even if the healing is done solely after the combat. Can a game be tailored around not having a healer? Sure can, though it's not personally how I would do it. In fact I ran one game where the party, without a healer, went into the dungeon and faced a single encounter. The party outnumbered the enemy 3 to 2 (same level), they won, but had to go back to town to rest and recuperate. Two whole minutes of battle and they had to go rest for 8 hours. And no, they didn't have the money for healing potions or wands (all started at level 1). (My post came off very aggressive and I really did not mean for it to be. I apologize ahead of time) No worries, no offense was taken. |
| #21mesinockSep 10, 2009 11:39:58 | There are so many better ways to mitigate damage than having your cleric (buff master 5000) waste all of his spell power on healing during the fight. 1) Kill the monsters faster than are killing you. Tactics, Tactics, Tactics. Divide and conqure, get flanking, control the flow of battle; engage only one or two enemies at time (your cleric has some excellent spells for this) 2) Protection spells and attack/damage buffs (from your cleric) 3) Better armor. If the monsters can't hit you, they can't damage you. Thus less healing needed. Also see point 2, protection buffs. 4) Healing after combat with wands of CLW and potions. Yeah money is a concern here. However if the DM is running level appropriate encounters; by the time your party 'really needs' these things, they can afford them. |
| #22Ka_D-ArgoSep 10, 2009 13:30:32 |
That's a nice thought, but not always doable. Personally, I always try to kill monsters faster than they are trying to kill me. Last game I played in, we had 3 PC's versus about 12 bad guys. Some of them had reach weapons, at least three were arcane casters, and at least 2 were divine casters (shaman I think). Out of the PC's, there was a Leonal (homebrew monster class, level 8), a monk 6/shintao4, and Favored Soul10. The Leonal has some healing abilities, but if the Favored Soul hadn't chosen to heal during that battle, and if the bad guys hadn't casted their own fireball into the fray (hurting more of their own than us). I do not believe we would have survived the fight. Could things have been done differently, Yes, I'm sure they could have. I'm not the best tactician out there. 2) Protection spells and attack/damage buffs (from your cleric) They take time to cast. And while they are being cast your comrades are dying. Not to mention the Cleric has to have them memorized that day (or prayed for, whatever term you want to use). Yes, some last long enough to be cast ahead of time. But, are you going to waste a spell not knowing if it will be useful for it's duration. 3) Better armor. If the monsters can't hit you, they can't damage you. Thus less healing needed. Also see point 2, protection buffs. Only applies if your DM makes it available. Scream bad DM if you want for those that don't make it available, but truth is, not every place you go to will have the best stuff to be bought and sold. We, for example were in a desolate mining town, the kind where you don't go to unless you have no other choice. There isn't a magic shop, there is barely a cleric temple. Why not leave you say? Sure we could leave, but during the travel time it takes us to get to a major city and back, the bad guys will have accomplished their goal (or at the very least much closer to it). Our DM, for better or worse tries to run things in real time. Once the game starts (where we are actually there playing) the clock starts ticking. If we attack somebody, but don't finish the job because we have to go back and rest. The rest of those guys will either seek us out or reinforce their position, making it harder for us to go back. 4) Healing after combat with wands of CLW and potions. Yeah money is a concern here. However if the DM is running level appropriate encounters; by the time your party 'really needs' these things, they can afford them. Level appropriate or not, it still depends on the local economy as to whether these things are available. It is my personal belief that there should be a way to counter whatever effects that could occur. So, if by some stupid chance encounter, your level 5 wizard gets feebleminded, there should be some way to get it fixed (whether quested or purchased or whatever). |
| #23KruskSep 10, 2009 13:57:55 |
Do I know what every faith believes, probably not. That said in a typical fantasy world, where it is not a matter of debate on "do the gods exist" but more along the lines of "do the gods care if i do this?" I would think I would put a little more effort into learning what they do and do not stand for. Additionally, if I my boss says "Hey go pick up this new guy john, he doesn't know where the office is." I show up, and he introduces himself as "John, cleric of the almighty ____[thing i have not heard of]_____" you can be very sure I am going to say "Oh really john? what are some basic tenants of that faith? before I let him in my car. Let alone depend on him to keep me alive. This definatly should be worked out ahead of time. IE "OK IM gonna play a tank, probably 2 levels of fighter, 4 of paladin and maybe prestige-ing after that." "Cool, I will do a 'god wizard' straight wizard, and prestige-ing asap." "Im gonna go skill monkey, straight factotum the whole way. " "Cool, I think I will do a tank as well, cleric for a bit and then into some full casting prestige class." "Hey we dont have a healer, lets make sure to get belts of battle, and put ranks in use magic device."
The biggest problem with this idea is that any good or neutral aligned cleric can provide any healing is needed without bothering to prepare to do so. Sure you call it a gamble when preparing stoneskin over (heal spell of same level). You may never need stoneskin, and then it would indeed be a waste. The thing is though, that if you prepare stoneskin and don't need it, but you do need healing guess what? turn that stoneskin into healing. There is no reason to prepare healing spells, because you can spontaneously do them, and so if it turns out the belts of battle, and cure wand were not enough, go ahead and spontaneously cast some healing to top everyone else off. Then if it turns up that you did need stoneskin, you are safe. |
| #241_ton_ghostSep 10, 2009 14:14:17 |
Truly (well said/respect). Getting pigeonholed per old/new stereotypes is for the birds and stagnates good play, story growth, and stifles creativity, let alone personal initiative. You're not going to learn anything new if you keep trying the "same ole, same ole" mentality. Yes, some tried and true tactics and concepts work, but innovation and creative problem solving are the key to an average character (player) getting better, not just number crunching and optimization and trusting in those in an on/off capacity.
Qualitative trumps quantitative more often than not in pen & paper. Reverse is often true for MMOs and the like cuz' they don't allow for non-linear thinking/personal initiative often. 1) Kill the monsters faster than are killing you. Tactics, Tactics, Tactics. Divide and conqure, get flanking, control the flow of battle; engage only one or two enemies at time (your cleric has some excellent spells for this)
Or, the old strategist cliché, "Best defense is a strong offense." This is largely true from a risk assessment, number-based mentality, especially when you have a fairly good approximation of "knowing your enemy", their (Sp)'s, BAB, Saves, etc. Another argument for good intel/recon ahead of time (preemptive Knowledge check vs. monster type, scouting, research in general, etc). #1 is the best point (team play), nj btw. If you (and your group) use their brains rather than just relying on 'x' beats 'y' pattern recognition, it's far more pragmatic. And by pragmatic I mean you live longer (heal less) statistically.
When you don't know however, which is often the case depending on level, environ, etc., going nova can be, well, stupid. You give 'em both barrels, thusly, showing the full worth of your arsenal (tells them what you're capable of) w/ nothing to fall back on, ignorant of possible SR, DR, other hidden monsters/threats, if the whole damn thing was an illusion, whatever. "Look before you leap" or, "Once of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Otherwise, yeah, in most standard fare (typical dungeon crawl, wandering monsters, etc), it's preferable to pour on the dmg quickly to eat up the clock (that's time you could be taking dmg yourself). Time is the only constant. 2) Protection spells and attack/damage buffs (from your cleric)
You'd be amazed how 5% (1 facet of a d20) can be a total reversal of fortune. One Bless, Aid, whatever (low lvl spell), can be a Hell of an investment in that it might take multiple spells of the same lvl or higher to take up the slack (heal dmg) said buffs theoretically could've provided. Again, careful analysis, often as simple as paying attention @ the table for 5 seconds to reading a paragraph about your own power(s) is enough to que simple logic and risk vs. threat equations. 3) Better armor. If the monsters can't hit you, they can't damage you. Thus less healing needed. Also see point 2, protection buffs.
Sound & simple, yes. Hence a big fan of Dex as an investment in that it covers more mechanics (init, AC's, Reflex, many good skills, ranged or Finesse attacks, etc) than Con. If you don't get hit, Con, and thusly HP in terms of healing resources, isn't an issue. If you'll pardon the expression, you've dodged a bullet and will not tax a party mate's resources later by taking them for granted and acting haphazardly in combat. Feats, tactical flexibility, cover, concealment, terrain mastery in general (static, fixed benefits) are your friends per defense, not counting on healing magic (finite, not guaranteed) to CYA after the fact. Bird in the hand... 4) Healing after combat with wands of CLW and potions. Yeah money is a concern here. However if the DM is running level appropriate encounters; by the time your party 'really needs' these things, they can afford them.
I suppose this is accurate for standard fare, why not. Watch your ass though, it's all contingent on the DM. So, always think in the back of your mind, "Regular adventuring day, regular weather, regular everything...featuring nasty surprise!" In the classical sense, most villains are defeated cuz' they always underestimate 'x' (heroes, personal inadequacy, allies, etc).
Yes, ideally, it is way more efficient to heal post combat; no risk of spell disruption being the biggest benefit, guards on recon to insure breathing room while regroup/heal takes place, etc. If you're fairly certain relative safety will afford more down time, use up those remaining healing spells (unless the 8 hr grace period per prayer is a factor) as they'll refresh. Charges do cost money, and CL to a Cure 'x' plus any feats to up HP heal is nice and won't necessarily (sometimes they do) apply to a healing item. Otherwise, yeah, party investment (don't make the cleric pay alone) on a Cure Light, Lesser Vigor Wand (most efficient HP:charge ratio), Healer's Belt, etc. is the way to go.
Above all things though, you do not have to resign yourself to a healbot (hate that term). I saw a 3 player party (3.0 [Oriental Advntrs] human samurai, assimar sorcerer, and human wzd) perform famously w/ little to no healing...and I was relentless at times on them. Do not fall for the BS rhetoric of, "We must have a healer!" No. The DM works for you and will challenge party 'x' per their design(s) not players randomly making characters in blind hopes they've created a smart match though completely ignorant of what the DM will throw out next. It's give and take, symbiotic. If you have to have static play and cannot adapt, improvise, and overcome, well, see MMO mentioned prior. |
| #25CCSSep 10, 2009 14:43:33 |
So you don't like how this other player chooses to play a cleric? Tough.
|
| #26Ka_D-ArgoSep 10, 2009 14:46:27 |
I'm aware of spontaneously casting heal spells, but in regards to the OP, their cleric couldn't do that (guessing he was an evil cleric). |
| #27revan54115110Sep 10, 2009 21:20:54 |
well if Wee Jas is Evil i would say yes for he wants to be a bit of a summoner / if some one is going to send skeletions at us then he acts like a very lazy necromancer |
| #28i_roll_onesSep 10, 2009 23:20:52 | I think that if we will argue the various possibilities of this campaign, we should probably ask what campaign setting it is first. After all, it might be a world where all clerics are healers. |
| #29chaosturtleSep 11, 2009 2:36:18 | I'd just ask him to carry a few extra healing spells. He doesn't need to be a dedicated healer, but if he can get rid of a buff or two in exchange for more healing it'd be appreciated. I imagine he's getting hurt too and wants the healing, so maybe as a party you could pool a share of the loot towards a healing scroll/potion/wand fund. Maybe if there's a specific spell he's using instead of heals you could instead buy potions/scrolls/wands of that so he can clear up some slots for healing spells. |
| #30KruskSep 11, 2009 15:48:21 |
If he is dead set on ignoring the other advice about how this isn't even a good tactic, he could instead take the tomb tainted soul feat and be healed by his cleric. (and maybe even some of the enemies) |
| #31shadow_viperSep 11, 2009 17:57:06 |
This would be a huge waste of gp. When for 750 GP you can use a swift action to cure from 2d8 to 4d8 points of damage with a healing belt(spending the needed charges, which renew each day) or 1d8+1 from a wand of CLW as a standard action(spending one of 50 charges).
I second(or third,etc) the advice of getting both a healing belt(750gp, Magic Item Compendium) and Wand(s) of Cure Light Wounds(750gp DMG) I advise against buying cure potions, in my opinion they are a waste of GP. GP that would be much better saved and spent on the the Healing Belt and/or Wand of CLW. However, if cure potions are found it loot, they should be kept and held on to, they're great for emergencies.
To clear up some confusion, the Belt of Battle is also an extremely good belt, it too is found in Magic Item Compendium. But it will not help with healing(unless the extra standard action is used for casting a healing spell). The belt allows extra actions to be given at the cost of a swift action. 3 charges which can be spend to get a Move Action, Standard Action or a Full Around Action. I believe those that mentioned it were referring to the Healing Belt. |
| #32mynameisjakeSep 11, 2009 20:34:32 |
If a DM allowed it at such a ridiculously low price, it would not be a waste. In fact, every single character would have one. 1 hp/rd wouldn't help much in combat, but a 10 min rest = 100 hps cured. Who wouldn't want the equivalent of a heal spell after every single combat? And for 900 gp? Yes, please. |
| #33shadow_viperSep 11, 2009 21:14:11 | My post was in the context of using the items while engaged in combat.
Out-of-combat healing, the rock would indeed be extremely helpful. However, personally I would perfer to buy cheaper items which allow me to heal myself/a partymate while engaged in combat, rather than spending close to 1k gp on an item that is only useful outside of combat. As a piece of found loot, the healing rock would be awesome. |
| #34mynameisjakeSep 11, 2009 21:30:33 | Agreed. |