Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 frostwolf Feb 25, 2009 23:18:04	We have a large group (7 players), and not a one is even trying to function as a group. Every battle, every crucial event, we end up with mild to high levels of chaos. The rogue won't even try to flank, the bard/vigilante has no idea what he is doing, and the druid summons fire elementals with wild abandon. three times, the only thing that prevented a TPK was some clever last second thinking on the part of the Time Mage. I've considered barking out orders in combat, but the few times I've done that, I've felt like a tool for telling people what to do and half the time I'm ignored. What should I do? Keep handing out orders? let the chaos continue? withhold the healing (I'm the cleric) to teach them a lesson?
#2 scarves Feb 25, 2009 23:35:42	Are you using a map? I find that a table map with minis, markers, or dice help many players start to think more tactically. Also perhaps you could try creating strategies with the other players when the group is starting a game session, or when there's a break in play. I think if your group starts to see the benefits of good strategy they will begin to chime in with their own ideas. Or, possibly, they may benefit from playing different classes that coincide more with their play styles. I think your worst option is not healing, that will probably just create bad feelings at the table. If nobody seems to mind your battle commands, go ahead and take up the mantle of leadership, every party needs a leader of some sort. Don't worry about being a jerk unless someone actually seems upset by it. Or not; really everything depends on who your players are, it's hard to give suggestions on how to handle something as dynamic and varied as a group of players.
#3 etarnon Feb 26, 2009 3:29:40	you need to get a party leader. If that's you, take charge. If your DM knows what they are doing, no tactics will end up with party = smoked. Good luck.
#4 entropy_judge Feb 26, 2009 5:02:48	A battlemap with your locations and visible enemies' locations would probably help implementation of tactics ... but without some kind of leader or a preplanning session, you would probably end up with people without a clue and some more chaos and confusion.
#5 Electricbee Feb 26, 2009 6:16:05	Have the DM create a nemesis party who is equal or slightly lower levelled and trounce you with it due to superior tactics. Nothing pulls a unit together like the desire for revenge.
#6 frostwolf Feb 26, 2009 8:54:58	Have the DM create a nemesis party who is equal or slightly lower levelled and trounce you with it due to superior tactics. Nothing pulls a unit together like the desire for revenge. Heh. I've asked him to do this, and I think he intends to. But your right, I think I'm going to start planning our tactics and supporting those that comply with aid before those that run willie nillie (Buff and heal the useful first, the useless last).
#7 falstyr Feb 26, 2009 9:36:14	If all the above suggestions fail just have a few TPK's. If they don't learn basic strategy just to stay alive...well...then they'll just have to make new characters every week until they learn.
#8 navar100 Feb 26, 2009 10:28:59	Roleplay it. Have your cleric realize that the party is not tactically sound in combat, and it's hurting. You have to use more healing than necessary because the party is lacking in minimizing getting hurt by their lack of tactics. Just assume the mantle of Combat Leader.
#9 Zherog Feb 26, 2009 10:29:01	Talk to the group, outside of the game session. Share your concerns, politely of course. Ask if they think it would be possible to work together a bit more during combats. Explain what you think are some good tactics, and get their input. I've seen what you're describing, and in my experience it's one of the "growing pains" of gaining levels. At the early levels, helter-skelter often works fine. For the first several levels, even bad tactics are likely to work - especially if you have seven PCs. Some specifics... The rogue won't even try to flank Does the rogue use melee weapons or ranged weapons? A lot of rogues feel too squishy to get into melee range, and they certainly have a point. I know a guy who is quite content for the rogue to find and remove traps, scout ahead, make a sneak attack in the surprise round, and then disappear for the rest of the combat. If that's all the rogue does, he's happy - anything extra she adds during combat is a bonus in his eyes. Does the player understand the rules for sneak attacks? Does the player understand that sneak attacks are how he/she will dish out large amounts of damage during combat? the bard/vigilante has no idea what he is doing I've seen this a lot, most often with spellcasters. Is the player willing to learn? Can you spend time with him/her on the side to help teach things? Has anybody bothered to spend time with him/her to try to teach the game, or did the player jump in and learn on the fly? The basic concepts of the game are very simple: roll a d20 and add a modifier. But there's a lot of little things that go around it, especially with a class like the bard who has a decent amount of skills, spells, and class abilities. and the druid summons fire elementals with wild abandon For whatever reason, a lot of players seem to have a fascination with fire. I know my wife, for example, loves to play evokers who load up on fire spells. There's just something cool about magically controlling fire. Does the player of the druid understand his/her other spells? Does he/she understand wild shape, and all it involves? Does he/she have an animal companion, and if so does it get used to best effect? * It really sounds to me like you have one of two scenarios, and maybe even both: A) A bunch of new players who don't completely understand the game B) A group with a conflicting style to yours In the first case, if they're willing to learn then you have a chance to aid them. Be open minded to their ideas, too. Always remember that it's their character, not yours, and they get final say. But as long as their willing to listen, there's no good reason you shouldn't offer them help so they can learn the game better. In the second case, there's nothing wrong with it. You can either suck it up or leave. I've done both.
#10 mesinock Feb 26, 2009 10:51:48	Get them together for a dungeon run in WoW using these chaos tactics so they can see just how deadly the lack of sound tactics is.
#11 Zherog Feb 26, 2009 12:44:11	Get them together for a dungeon run in WoW using these chaos tactics so they can see just how deadly the lack of sound tactics is. While the intent is decent, I don't know that it would help. First, it would take a little bit of time (and money) to get everybody to a point where they could run one of the low-level instances (either ragefire chasm or deadmines). Even at that, both of those instances are fairly forgiving when it comes to bad tactics, unlike some of the later instances. It would certainly demonstrate the concept a little bit, but I don't think it would completely drive the point home.
#12 chaosturtle Feb 26, 2009 21:16:16	"Hey guys, I have this cool idea that I think will help next fight..." Shouldn't come off as a tool from that.
#13 lormador Feb 28, 2009 3:38:01	Often times bad tactics result from a player having more options than they know how to use. The solution to this is fairly simple- place them in a resource-starved environment, like an extremely harsh dungeon, and only allow resources to gradually be restored. Bad tactics will continue if the group is allowed to get away with it. I recommend Undermountain, with 1st level characters. It is like DND boot camp. Oh, yeah, and go ahead and tell them what to do until they can argue with you about it.