A friend of mine and myself were discussing what we define as absurd or overpowered.
A few things I would like to know:
1.Does anybody else find Dragon Shaman or Marshal broken? (My friend does)
State why/why not.
2.State an overpowered class and why it is overpowered. None of this optimization crap, just an ability they have that makes them CRAZY!!!
2. Cleric, Druid, Wizard. Because they're full spellcasters with the ability to change their prepared spells to take on whatever it is they're going to be fighting. (Druid gets Wild Shape on top of it).
My take on it is that the game designers need at least one party member to be a healing machine for the game mechanics to balance nicely, and set up the class to be powerful and flexible enough that it was attractive to players.
1. Dragon Shaman, and Marshal only have the abilities available to fill 1 or 2 party roles (healer, buffer, damage dealer, meatshield, etc.) So they are not actually broken... as almost every class can fill at least 2 of those roles.
2. Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Psions, and other full progression spellcasters (the ones that get up to 9th level spells/manifestations) are broken because - despite the illusion that they only fill 1 or 2 of the above mentioned rules - can typically fill any (and at high levels all) of the roles within a party.
Don't have a rogue to take care of all those skill check related obstacles? Good thing you have a wizard to cast spells like Knock and Voice of the Dragon.
Don't have a cleric to cover all the damage the party is taking?
Good thing you have a wizard to cast spells like Summon Monster I - IX so you have some spare meatshields around.
Don't have a rogue/ranger/fighter/barbarian to deal tons of damage for the party?
Good thing you have a wizard to cast spells like Scorching Ray and Disintegrate
Don't have those odd powers that sometimes come in handy?
Good thing your wizard took polymorph and can do near anything because of it.
However, that said the question is faulty.
That said there really isn't anything that's "Overpowered". Certainly some classes are far stronger than others and you can't really expect things to turn out well for a ranger in a game where druids are running around.
Any game can turn out fine with almost any class set, so long as you know what part of the power curve you're playing to. Honestly I find it easiest to play to the middle/low-high end (Tome of Battle Classes + Spontaneous Casters/Psionics) than it is anything else. If you want to run a game with only low-power classes that works, everyone can play PHB melee. If you wanna have some high-power fun, go ahead Wizards, Druids & Archivists all round! Hell if you want, you can even all go with piles like Marshal and CW Samurai. Just so long as you don't mix them too heavily you'll be fine.
EDIT: All this is putting things like infinite-loops and other such things that just crash the game engine aside, of course.
I'd say marshal is most certainly broken, in the sense it's a worthless pile.
If you're building a "diplomancer" it's a great one level dip.
Also, in a low to middle-ish power game, the marshal can be effective -- particularly in a larger sized party.
If you're building a "diplomancer" it's a great one level dip.
Also, in a low to middle-ish power game, the marshal can be effective -- particularly in a larger sized party.
Well yes, but when you're talking about something being decent as a 1-level dip, the class in and of itself is still a pretty stinky pile. My personal stance if something on it's can't stand on it's own for at least the 5 levels needed before entering most PrCs, it's a very weak as a class. Even if sniping 1 or 2 of its features work out in the context of a larger build.
But yeah, it can have a place in a low power game. That was exactly my point, I admit comparing it to the CW Samurai was a bit of hyperbole it's probably more on par Fighter & the like. I've always been sour on that class since it's such a cool concept, with such lackluster implementation.
1. No, because they aren't spellcasters.
2. Cleric, Druid, Wizard. Because they're full spellcasters with the ability to change their prepared spells to take on whatever it is they're going to be fighting. (Druid gets Wild Shape on top of it).
That assumes you know exactly what you're fighting each day. I don't think I've ever had that circumstance. My DM likes to surprise me.
(Although wizards do have the potnetial to be very overpowered...)
But yeah, it can have a place in a low power game. That was exactly my point, I admit comparing it to the CW Samurai was a bit of hyperbole it's probably more on par Fighter & the like. I've always been sour on that class since it's such a cool concept, with such lackluster implementation.
It definitely gets a chance to shine a bit with a larger party, too. The auras can have a huge effect when you're granting a +2 (major) and a +6 (minor) to seven different people. That's a lot of bonus - especially since Motivate Dexterity can be up and active before a fight even starts, giving everybody (especially the rogues) a boost to Init.
I do agree, though, that if the best thing you can say about a class is that "it makes a great one level dip" then it's probably a very sucky class.
Being heavily armored and having two good saves makes them pretty durable, but while their talents boost the party as a whole, they have no ability to personally perform deeds that will turn the tide of a fight.
Fun for certain persons, but sub-par in overall power.
My Friend seems to believe that the Dragon Shaman is broken because after combat, essentially everyone goes back to half health, which is more than the Cleric can do. Does anyone see a problem with that?
My Friend seems to believe that the Dragon Shaman is broken because after combat, essentially everyone goes back to half health, which is more than the Cleric can do.
No, it isn't.
And even if it were, boo-****ing-hoo. Heaven forbid a class be able to something better than another class.
Seriously, if somebody answers this topic's question with anything other than Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and maybe Artificer or Psion, they probably have no idea what they're talking about... (Though lots of people forget Artificer because they're setting-specific.)
EDOT: To elaborate, the reason that the above classes are overpowered is that they can easily become a party of one. In other words, they can adventure all by themselves, without any allies, and still cover all of their party role bases. They have this ability by virtue of their ridiculously extensive spell access potential.
Dragon Shaman and Marshal can't do this, not even close.
My Friend seems to believe that the Dragon Shaman is broken because after combat, essentially everyone goes back to half health, which is more than the Cleric can do. Does anyone see a problem with that?
Past very early levels, parties are not limited by thier HP, as any functional party worth their 11-foot polls will own stock in Wands of CLW and LV. There's little reason why any party should ever be below half HP after an encounter, Dragon Shaman present or not. The real limiter to the adventuring day, more often than not, is the number of spells the party's full casters haven't yet burned off. Healing Aura is a great trick that will save you some resources, but it's nothing the party couldn't do regardless. Besides, 1/2 HP is not a great place to be for some classes (especially the d4 and d6 ones), so the cleric will still still have to pop a few heals anyway if he doesn't want to expend wand charges.
Past very early levels, parties are not limited by thier HP, as any functional party worth their 11-foot polls will own stock in Wands of CLW and LV. There's little reason why any party should ever be below half HP after an encounter, Dragon Shaman present or not. The real limiter to the adventuring day, more often than not, is the number of spells the party's full casters haven't yet burned off. Healing Aura is a great trick that will save you some resources, but it's nothing the party couldn't do regardless. Besides, 1/2 HP is not a great place to be for some classes (especially the d4 and d6 ones), so the cleric will still still have to pop a few heals anyway if he doesn't want to expend wand charges.
And if you don't have a cleric or other healing spellcaster, just give your wands to your rogue, bard, or any other class with UMD and top the party off that way.
Really, regaining HPs is nothing special.
That said there really isn't anything that's "Overpowered". Certainly some classes are far stronger than others and you can't really expect things to turn out well for a ranger in a game where druids are running around.
All animals are equal.
But some are more equal then others.
Seriously. If your friend thinks dragon shamans or marshals are overpowered, he's an idiot. Evidently most DMs permit clerics and druids yet will not allow "psionics" to be uttered because well, people are arrogant ass clowns. They have no logic behind it, they don't even have a misguided purpose. They just do it because they can.
Dragon Shamans/Mashals are something of low tier. Maybe on the higher end of low-tier, but still low-tier. They're not casters, their auras maybe do one or two cool things while everyone is flipping out, doing all kinds of crazy ****. Evidently the only reason to be Marshal is to give your friends extra actions per round, and a dragon shaman for breath weapon and fasthealing. Nothing being a caster couldn't do. Heck, Dragonfire Adept gets breath weapon and better abilities. Blowing both dragon shamans and warlocks out of the water!
What Big Tony said is sortof true. There's a heirachy within the 3.5 classes, and if you understand that heirachy the other players can pick classes accordingly so everyone is fair. If you don't know the heirachy, or lack an honor system, things are going to suck.
I don't even think wotc play-tested 3.5. It's like Yugioh, they just release crap that seemed like a good idea at the time or something that might garner sales. I mean seriously, the cleric alone could fulfill the roles of the knight, paladin, healer, psychic warrior, favored soul.. all well being a better class.
So the Marshal and the Dragon Shaman are not broken?
There not overpowered, no.
My Friend seems to believe that the Dragon Shaman is broken because after combat, essentially everyone goes back to half health, which is more than the Cleric can do. Does anyone see a problem with that?
In addition to what everything else has been said, a cleric can do this, he just needs to spend a feat (reserve feat touch of healing I believe)
Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Psion, Artificer, and Archivist are not overpowered because they can plan for the inevitable, but because they have specific powers that enable them to make any game a one man show.
Clerics, want to be a Fighter? At 7th level, they gain access to a spell which enables them to shove their fingers in their ears and proclaim themselves a fighter with an enhanced strength score AND magical Full BAB. And they can still cast their spells. All for the cost of no bonus feats. So, at seventh level, they make the meatshield type class obsolete because they can do the Paladin/Ranger/Fighter shtick better than they could hope to because they still have spells like Bless rolling around. If you felt like being a meanie, You could take the Planning Domain at level one and work your way up to Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell. You can accomplish this by level seven, which means you walk around ALL DAY with a huge bonus to strength and BAB (Not a bonus to Hit). Now, walk into battle and buff yourself and watch the enemies wish they never insulted your god.
Wizard. Spellbooks make most of the cheese harder... unless you pick intelligently from level one. Honestly, investing in a wand of Magic Missile alleviates quite a few problems with the "But I don't have enough things to do" at low levels. And then eventually you get access to ploymorph. Now... monster abilities... yeah, open up the monster manual and decide how you want to own the enemies. This does not include any cheese involving fun magic tricks from feats. But then again, there is that really amazing "Find City Bomb".
Druid. Once you take Natural Spell at level six, there is NO reason to not be a Bear/Elephant/Dinosaur forever. You can just click your teeth and cast really big awesome spells. Planning takes no part in this, just a nice access to, you guessed it, the monster manual.
Psion. Read Wizard. Replace Magic Missile with appropriate power. They ONLY reason they don't make it into many peoples lists of the OPed is because they don't have as much support as Cleric/Wizard/Druid. But if the Wizard can do it in PHB, the Psion can almost certainly do it in XPB.
Archivist. Take the Cleric spell list. Add the Wizard spell list. So long as you can find someone (like the Shugenja) who will make the Wizard spell divine, you are golden. Access to the two best spell lists makes you an intimidating opponent. Now, this one DOES take planning, but he is really bad once he gets rolling.
Artificer. See that section in any book with magic items? Given enough time and enough cash, it is yours. And don't worry about the cost, everything is only 37.5% of the original cost. If you start an Artificer in a level 12 game, take the level hit for XP cost, chart out the progression of your items, and start the game with more items than a person should own in their career. Sure, magic items are hard to make while adventuring, but once you get a Dedicated Wright, you just make a quick stop into town every few days to continue the progress. Don't like doing that? Then make a portable hole, or buy one (but why buy what you can make). Then you just load a lab into the hole and set the little guy to work. If you need ANY spell that ever existed, then you walk into the lab, order it up, and then come back 8 hours later. (Seriously, I stole a CASTLE at level 12 with the help of a level 13 illusionist.)
Now, some of this cheese is hard to maintain when you are with a whimsy DM, but most of this just requires you to be able to do research, not guess work. Just guess what is weak to a dino's teeth... Almost everything with Magic Fang...
I ran a thread asking a similar question about which were the most overpowered classes in 3.5, in the end a came up with this list.
The ten most overpowered classes of 3.5 are:
1. Druid
2. Cleric
3. Artificer
4. Erudite spell to power variant
5. Archivist
6. Wizard
7. Sorcerer
8. Psion
9. Dread Necromancer
10. Any other full casting class because magic trumps everything in 3.5
4. Erudite
I don't think that quite counts. The Dragon magazine Erudite was never official, so it might as well have been a home-brew for how much people cared about it, and the official Erudite that later come out in Complete Psionics was much less powerful than it was. Though it wasn't out too long before 4E came out, so I could be wrong and I just never heard about it...
I'm surprised that you got Sorcerer so high up on such a poll though. It most definitely belongs on a list of powerful classes, yes, but most people don't realize it. Heck, I always remembered some people saying the Sorcerer was underpowered just because it was less powerful than the Wizard, and then I would laugh. In a world of sharpened sticks and stones, a grenade launcher isn't underpowered just because a nuclear missile exists...
I don't think that quite counts. The Dragon magazine Erudite was never official, so it might as well have been a home-brew for how much people cared about it, and the official Erudite that later come out in Complete Psionics was much less powerful than it was. Though it wasn't out too long before 4E came out, so I could be wrong and I just never heard about it...
It was a variant psion that came out in complete psionic, but this variant on a variant made it broken:
Erudite spell to power variant
This variant basically turned a slightly nerfed psion into a class that can do what an archivist does, except with all arcane and psionic powers instead of divine.
I'm surprised that you got Sorcerer so high up on such a poll though. It most definitely belongs on a list of powerful classes, yes, but most people don't realize it. Heck, I always remembered some people saying the Sorcerer was underpowered just because it was less powerful than the Wizard, and then I would laugh. In a world of sharpened sticks and stones, a grenade launcher isn't underpowered just because a nuclear missile exists...
There is a fairly large gap in the votes between 1-6 and 7-10. Even though sorcerer isn't as powerful as a wizard, it still is one of the most powerful classes in the game.
It was a variant psion that came out in complete psionic, but this variant on a variant made it broken:
Erudite spell to power variant
This variant basically turned a slightly nerfed psion into a class that can do what an archivist does, except with all arcane and psionic powers instead of divine.
BWAHAHAHAHA!
Oh, wow! I've never seen that before, no, but who the heck thought that was a good idea? Oh goodness. :P
BWAHAHAHAHA!
Oh, wow! I've never seen that before, no, but who the heck thought that was a good idea? Oh goodness. :P
Honestly, I have no clue. Maybe they were trying to slip that one by us to see if anyone notices? I'm guessing they did the same thing for the Planar Shepard.
1.Does anybody else find Dragon Shaman or Marshal broken? (My friend does)
State why/why not.
Rule 17 of the WotC boards: If someone starts a thread about "X is broken", they're usually wrong.
Rule 17b: If said statement is not from the poster himself, but from a friend / his brother / his roommate, the statement is always complete bogus and the thread is a waste of time.