I don't know if I'm posting this in the right forum. Anyway, we have a new player for D&D 3.5. This is her first time RPG'ing. During the combat of her first session, I noticed she didn't want to fight with her weapon like all of us veteran RPG'ers are accustomed to do when combat breaks out. She seems to want to be more creative rather than simply "attack."
For example, instead of attacking the bear and other wild animals we were fighting, she wanted to gather fruits to feed and lead it or calm it or something (during combat).
She's playing an Aventi Rogue (Aventi is an aquatic species from Stormwrack I think). So she has lots of skill points. I was thinking maybe she could get some skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel? She's proficent with a bow. Is there some type of "net-launching" arrow that she can use to capture enemies and entangle them in a net? The other suggestion I had for her was to get Improved Disarm, so that she could disarm targets with her rapier, but she needs Combat Expertise and we're not high enough level for that yet.
Advice?
I don't know if I'm posting this in the right forum. Anyway, we have a new player for D&D 3.5. This is her first time RPG'ing. During the combat of her first session, I noticed she didn't want to fight with her weapon like all of us veteran RPG'ers are accustomed to do when combat breaks out. She seems to want to be more creative rather than simply "attack."
For example, instead of attacking the bear and other wild animals we were fighting, she wanted to gather fruits to feed and lead it or calm it or something (during combat).
Awesome. If her solutions make sense in-game, I say roll with it. Creativity should be encouraged and rewarded. That's not to say that her ideas should automatically be met with success simply for trying to think outside the box. For example, attempting to appease an angry bear with fruit will likely leave you minus one face no matter how good your intentions. But attempting to appease or lull away a non-aggressive bear could possibly work, perhaps requiring a Handle Animal check depending on how much coaxing the bear needs.
Is there some type of "net-launching" arrow that she can use to capture enemies and entangle them in a net?
I'm not familiar with any special arrows like that, but since she's a Rogue, UMD is a good option for achieving such special effects. A wand of Ray of Stupidity, for example, for quickly and nonleathally taking out animals and other low-int creatures. And a few scrolls of Sleep or Deeper Slumber can do likewise to groups of low level threats.
Alchemical items are a less expensive alternative. A few Tanglefoot Bags would be effective enough to halt foes at low levels.
Though if your DM is adaptable, it wouldn't be very hard to homebrew some special arrows if non already exist.
The other suggestion I had for her was to get Improved Disarm, so that she could disarm targets with her rapier, but she needs Combat Expertise and we're not high enough level for that yet.
Disarming with a rogue can be tricky since rogues don't have the best BaB and tend to prefer lighter weapons (which leaves then with no bonus, or even a penalty, to the attempt), but it certainly is doable.
Advice?
I'm tempted to suggest her playing a Bard instead of a Rogue since they both fill the skill-monkey niche and since the Bard's spells give them lots of non-combat tools for disabling foes and crafting creative solutions; Even more so if she has access to the SC since it greatly enhances the utility of their spells. However, if since your player is new, and since Bards do require some familiarity with the game to get the most out of them, they may not be the way to go for a first character. Though putting the suggestion out there couldn't hurt.
I don't know if I'm posting this in the right forum. Anyway, we have a new player for D&D 3.5. This is her first time RPG'ing. During the combat of her first session, I noticed she didn't want to fight with her weapon like all of us veteran RPG'ers are accustomed to do when combat breaks out. She seems to want to be more creative rather than simply "attack."
For example, instead of attacking the bear and other wild animals we were fighting, she wanted to gather fruits to feed and lead it or calm it or something (during combat).
Awesome. If her solutions make sense in-game, I say roll with it. Creativity should be encouraged and rewarded. That's not to say that her ideas should automatically be met with success simply for trying to think outside the box. For example, attempting to appease an angry bear with fruit will likely leave you minus one face no matter how good your intentions. But attempting to appease or lull away a non-aggressive bear could possibly work, perhaps requiring a Handle Animal check depending on how much coaxing the bear needs.
I like the Handle Animal check idea.
Is there some type of "net-launching" arrow that she can use to capture enemies and entangle them in a net?
I'm not familiar with any special arrows like that, but since she's a Rogue, UMD is a good option for achieving such special effects. A wand of Ray of Stupidity, for example, for quickly and nonleathally taking out animals and other low-int creatures. And a few scrolls of Sleep or Deeper Slumber can do likewise to groups of low level threats.
Alchemical items are a less expensive alternative. A few Tanglefoot Bags would be effective enough to halt foes at low levels.
Though if your DM is adaptable, it wouldn't be very hard to homebrew some special arrows if non already exist.
Pardon my ignorance, but what is UMD?
I’ll check out the tanglefoot bags, thanks. Where can I find other alchemical items? Also, we’re not playing with any magic, so no wands, scrolls, or spells.
Are there any rules or guidelines for homebrewed arrows? For example, sleep arrows, or arrows with a toxin that equals the Ray of Stupidity.
The other suggestion I had for her was to get Improved Disarm, so that she could disarm targets with her rapier, but she needs Combat Expertise and we're not high enough level for that yet.
Disarming with a rogue can be tricky since rogues don't have the best BaB and tend to prefer lighter weapons (which leaves then with no bonus, or even a penalty, to the attempt), but it certainly is doable.
Yes, but I figured since Improved Disarm gives a bonus to disarm, it could be an option.
Advice?
I'm tempted to suggest her playing a Bard instead of a Rogue since they both fill the skill-monkey niche and since the Bard's spells give them lots of non-combat tools for disabling foes and crafting creative solutions; Even more so if she has access to the SC since it greatly enhances the utility of their spells. However, if since your player is new, and since Bards do require some familiarity with the game to get the most out of them, they may not be the way to go for a first character. Though putting the suggestion out there couldn't hurt.
Thanks, but like I said, we’re not playing with magic. Maybe she can multiclass to 1 level of Ranger to get Wild Empathy for calming animals.
Don't punish her creativity, but make it clear that once combat begins the non-aggressive non-combat option is pretty much off the table.
Spoken like a true role-player.
As veteran RPG-ers, when combat breaks out, we all whip out our weapons and attack. That’s our automatic reaction. But I’ve come to realize that she may not want to do that. She was trying creative non-aggressive non-combat options during combat. That’s why I’m looking for other options for her to use during combat.
It’s also made me pause and think, “When combat breaks out, we always fight. No one seems to try a diplomacy check or something else.” New players always have novel ideas that make me question our habits and the way we automatically react to things.
Spoken like a true role-player.As veteran RPG-ers, when combat breaks out, we all whip out our weapons and attack. That’s our automatic reaction. But I’ve come to realize that she may not want to do that. She was trying creative non-aggressive non-combat options during combat. That’s why I’m looking for other options for her to use during combat.
It’s also made me pause and think, “When combat breaks out, we always fight. No one seems to try a diplomacy check or something else.” New players always have novel ideas that make me question our habits and the way we automatically react to things.
I'm not saying there aren't non-vilolent ways to end a combat, or that it's always weapons-free once someone draws steel, but the example you gave of feeding fruit to a bear simply isn't going to work. Ever. If this player really does not want to fight then what about a mage or bard who buffs companions or casts non-lethal spells to trap, hinder and subdue enemies. If she simply does not want to fight at all then D&D probably isn't the game for her.
Maybe she should see if she can get the other characters to agree that she's the conflict resolution expert and should be allowed to try and prevent a fight, with others to follow her lead (so if she starts with subdual damage, everyone else goes in with that too), but if it doesn't work, it's fine for the others to go in a-hackin' and a-slashin'. That way, she gets to have a go with the creative stuff - and will probably encourage others to reassess the way they deal with combat - but there's still a chance for the rest of the party to just have a bit of a ruck.
Buff character/skill monkey seems like the way to encourage her to go, whatever happens.
As veteran RPG-ers, when combat breaks out, we all whip out our weapons and attack. That’s our automatic reaction. But I’ve come to realize that she may not want to do that. She was trying creative non-aggressive non-combat options during combat. That’s why I’m looking for other options for her to use during combat.
I'm not saying there aren't non-vilolent ways to end a combat, or that it's always weapons-free once someone draws steel, but the example you gave of feeding fruit to a bear simply isn't going to work. Ever. If this player really does not want to fight then what about a mage or bard who buffs companions or casts non-lethal spells to trap, hinder and subdue enemies. If she simply does not want to fight at all then D&D probably isn't the game for her.
I agree, basically once some people are swinging swords at a creature, the creature will either fight back or run. They probably won't care about the fruits, or whatever. You might even want to steer her character concept into something more aligned with the rest of the group.
She is a rogue, she could max ranks in use magic device, and use wands of charm monster/charm person. *edit, Never mind, noticed you said no magic. Instead have her get a super high diplomacy score, and just auto win any encounter she wants by making them friendly all of a sudden. Still probably requires allies to stop hitting them though.
Pardon my ignorance, but what is UMD?
The Use Magic Device skill. It allows a character to activate magic items without being a spellcaster.
I’ll check out the tanglefoot bags, thanks. Where can I find other alchemical items? Also, we’re not playing with any magic, so no wands, scrolls, or spells.
There's a few scattered about various supplements, but my 3e-fu's a bit rusty. The Eberron Campaign Guide has a few. Races of the Dragon has Ditherbombs.
Are there any rules or guidelines for homebrewed arrows? For example, sleep arrows, or arrows with a toxin that equals the Ray of Stupidity.
There are no official guidelines for item homebrewing.
The closest you will get is the magic item pricing guidelines in the DMG. However, and I'm only stressing this because its a common point of confusion, the item pricing guidelines are guidelines for pricing items are not item creation rules. Treating them as the latter can cause balance issues. But that's another topic altogether, and the point is mostly moot since your group's not using magic items. Though its good to know for future reference.
Something like sleep arrows would most likely be a magic item of some sort due to the power of the effect. Though you might be able to convince your DM to allow some homebrewed sleep poisons and alchemical items. Personally, I would price particularly powerful items as if they were magic items and use Scrolls of Sleep or Deeper Slumber as the base line for both cost and power of the effect.
The other suggestion I had for her was to get Improved Disarm, so that she could disarm targets with her rapier, but she needs Combat Expertise and we're not high enough level for that yet.
Disarming with a rogue can be tricky since rogues don't have the best BaB and tend to prefer lighter weapons (which leaves then with no bonus, or even a penalty, to the attempt), but it certainly is doable.
Yes, but I figured since Improved Disarm gives a bonus to disarm, it could be an option.
I didn't forget about the bonus. Even with it, disarming can still be a risky proposition since you're still behind on BaB against many foes. Disarming also doesn't help against non-weapon using foes which could be another point against it depending on type of foes you commonly fight.
Advice?
I'm tempted to suggest her playing a Bard instead of a Rogue since they both fill the skill-monkey niche and since the Bard's spells give them lots of non-combat tools for disabling foes and crafting creative solutions; Even more so if she has access to the SC since it greatly enhances the utility of their spells. However, if since your player is new, and since Bards do require some familiarity with the game to get the most out of them, they may not be the way to go for a first character. Though putting the suggestion out there couldn't hurt.
Thanks, but like I said, we’re not playing with magic. Maybe she can multiclass to 1 level of Ranger to get Wild Empathy for calming animals.
Ouch. Not even semi-casters? Now I'm curious how your game handles healing. But I digress.
Animal Empathy could be worth it if her rogue has a good charisma, but I wouldn't recommend it. Animal Empathy functions off of your Ranger level instead of a skill check, so a single level dip won't get her a very high check. She would have a lot of trouble making an unfriendly animal indifferent, let alone trying to get a hostile animal to back down. And if you DM enforces multiclass penalties, that's something else to consider.
As veteran RPG-ers, when combat breaks out, we all whip out our weapons and attack. That’s our automatic reaction. But I’ve come to realize that she may not want to do that. She was trying creative non-aggressive non-combat options during combat. That’s why I’m looking for other options for her to use during combat.
Without magic at all, that becomes a very tricky since non-spellcaster don't have many combat options for non-lethally ending combat. As others have suggested, focusing on her skills is probably the way to go as far as mechanics are concerned. She should definitely keep her Diplomacy and Sense Motive high if she wants to play peacekeeper, though Bluff and Intimidate have their place as well in that regard. She might also find Gather Information and the Knowledge skills useful, since being forewarned is forearmed.
And for combat tricks, the Subduing Strike feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds allows her to deal non-lethal damage with a weapon without taking a penalty. The Complete Warrior has a few fun feats such as Ranged Pin, Ranged Disarm, and Kiai Shout.
If your DM is open to using the Tome of Battle, the Martial Stance and Martial Study feats open up some interesting options. Though I doubt your DM would allow martial maneuvers since they have a caster-feel to them despite being non-magical.
I'm sure there's more options, but like I said, I'm a bit rusty on 3e material.
As gamers, we become used to thinking in terms of hit points. We defeat everything by doing damage. As a DM, I've become fustrated with this mindset at times. Players design their characters to become good at it and they're at a disadvantage when it isn't the best way. I've had veteran players who were at a loss when they had to capture a foe without killing.
But there are a lot of ways to play a noncombative character. You can take the diplomatic approach, either using the Diplomacy skill, Animal Handling, or Animal Empathy to get the foes to stop attacking. This isn't easy, especially against already hostile enemies. Nor is it fair to allow a single such check to end a fight that would have required dozens of attack rolls.
You could also take the Knowledge route. Perhaps when the group is fighting a creature, a noncombatant could make an appropriate Knowledge check to Aid Another. Weak points, dangers to avoid, specific behaviors...these could all be used to give another person a +2 to attack to or AC.
If the character is willing to enter melee, but just doesn't want to be doing the hitting, there are dozens of things that can be done that are often ignored. Just being in the right place at the right time creates flanking opportunities. Aid Another is easy to do and makes a big difference. Rescuing the fallen with Heal checks or potions, or just moving them out of harms way. You don't need magic to light things on fire, or to find other ways of changing the terrain situation. All that alchemical stuff is awesome if you have enough of it and know how to use it. Caltrops, marbles, nets, and more can cause a fight to change drastically.
My last suggestion is more to the DM of the group than to the player in question. Why not having something going on other than the combat? I've found that traps are a lot more interesting if the person disarming them is doing so while the rest of the party is fighting a swarm of foes. The same goes for picking a lock so that everyone can escape. It doesn't have to be rogue either. Knowledge skill can be used to figure something out that saves the day, or a Craft check might be needed to put something together. Just because a fight is happening doesn't mean that its the only thing happening.
While the others in the party are taking damage to do their thing, the non-combatant should be in just as much danger of injury to do their non-lethal actions. And just as a few blows would be needed take out a foe, so too it should take a few skill checks/actions - with each success perhaps showing progress or giving bonuses - before the foe is pacified.
For example, the food might attract some of the foes - but then they will go for the character. The character needs to focus attention on the food not themselves, risking damage. And then perhaps the two foes will fight. If not harming the creatures is the issue, then the second part would be to split the two up without refocusing on the character. Things like that.
It's always seems a tricky balance to make 'good' actions mean something by making them harder, yet not making it stupidly punitive and unattractive to try them.
Also, where can I find alchemy or potions, like tanglefoot bags and things like that?
Tanglefoot bags and other basic alchemical items should be in the equipment section of the 3.5 PHB; their crafting should be covered in the Skills chapter.
If a player is looking to be "more creative than simply 'attack'," you might consider some ad-hoc terrain exploits the character can get up to. Maybe the player isn't interested in "mere" attacking, but you can drop hints about possible assists. Waving a branch and distracting the bear, giving the fighter a leg up to a better position for flanking... the other players won't complain that she's not contributing if her character's actions make *them* more awesome.
As mentioned, that sort of thing should be encouraged. It's going to make the encounter memorable for the rest of the party, too. We don't remember most die rolls, but we remember the crazy stunts.
Oh, duh. She could aid another in combat. Giving another player a +2 to hit, or AC.
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'll suggest that she pumps up her Diplomacy skill to the max so she can use that. Also, maybe she can use Craft "MacGuyver-style," ie, scrounging up things and making something useful.
Also, where can I find alchemy or potions, like tanglefoot bags and things like that?
Alchemical items can be found scattered in a few sources, as I mentioned earlier. The Player's Handbook, Eberron Player's Guide, Race of the Dragon have a few. I think the Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel have a few as well. And if your DM allows 3.0 sources, Tome and Blood had an healing alchemical salve that could substitute for a potion of Cure Light.
Potions, however, are magic items, so they can't be crafted with a skill. You need to actually be able to cast spells to make them in addition to the rest of the normal prerequisites, so they are out of your grasp.
I don't know if I'm posting this in the right forum. Anyway, we have a new player for D&D 3.5. This is her first time RPG'ing. During the combat of her first session, I noticed she didn't want to fight with her weapon like all of us veteran RPG'ers are accustomed to do when combat breaks out. She seems to want to be more creative rather than simply "attack."
For example, instead of attacking the bear and other wild animals we were fighting, she wanted to gather fruits to feed and lead it or calm it or something (during combat).
She's playing an Aventi Rogue (Aventi is an aquatic species from Stormwrack I think). So she has lots of skill points. I was thinking maybe she could get some skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel? She's proficent with a bow. Is there some type of "net-launching" arrow that she can use to capture enemies and entangle them in a net? The other suggestion I had for her was to get Improved Disarm, so that she could disarm targets with her rapier, but she needs Combat Expertise and we're not high enough level for that yet.
Advice?
Is it just combatsd vrs. animals or combat in general. Plenty (some?) people find killing, attacking animals distasteful. Furthermore one might assume that battles against animals are avoidable, or even mutable.
Not fighting and murdeing a bear is not only an option but the easy option, and smart roleplaying.
Many non-gamers and early first time gamers respond in a much more self preserving manner; and see combats and conflicts as things to avoid or circumvent. This player is weighing the option of possible injury versus gain and rationally sees the difference. Honestly vetran gamers concept of accepting injury as part of the job skews their percpetion of the risks of combat, in a way that neophyte gamers do not.
Try making sure that the combats are meaningful, and worhtwhile; or have a direct motivating factor and seeing if that encourages this player to react more typically.
It comes down to the old adage of "to a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail". Vetran players spend hours choosing hammers, while new players spend hours thinking about all the tools they are offered.
As the DM, let players try that sort of thing. Just don't let it be to easy.
Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'll suggest that she pumps up her Diplomacy skill to the max so she can use that. Also, maybe she can use Craft "MacGuyver-style," ie, scrounging up things and making something useful.
Also, where can I find alchemy or potions, like tanglefoot bags and things like that?
Alchemical items can be found scattered in a few sources, as I mentioned earlier. The Player's Handbook, Eberron Player's Guide, Race of the Dragon have a few. I think the Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel have a few as well. And if your DM allows 3.0 sources, Tome and Blood had an healing alchemical salve that could substitute for a potion of Cure Light.
Potions, however, are magic items, so they can't be crafted with a skill. You need to actually be able to cast spells to make them in addition to the rest of the normal prerequisites, so they are out of your grasp.
Even though we're not using magic, the GM may allow crafting potions with a skill. I'll check out the resources you provided, thanks.
Is it just combatsd vrs. animals or combat in general. Plenty (some?) people find killing, attacking animals distasteful. Furthermore one might assume that battles against animals are avoidable, or even mutable.
Well, it was her first fight and our only combat that session. So it’s hard to tell if it was attacking animals that she found distasteful, or if she just wanted to be creative, or she didn’t know what she was doing and making stuff up on the spot.
Not fighting and murdeing a bear is not only an option but the easy option, and smart roleplaying.
Many non-gamers and early first time gamers respond in a much more self preserving manner; and see combats and conflicts as things to avoid or circumvent. This player is weighing the option of possible injury versus gain and rationally sees the difference. Honestly vetran gamers concept of accepting injury as part of the job skews their percpetion of the risks of combat, in a way that neophyte gamers do not.
Try making sure that the combats are meaningful, and worhtwhile; or have a direct motivating factor and seeing if that encourages this player to react more typically.
It comes down to the old adage of "to a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail". Vetran players spend hours choosing hammers, while new players spend hours thinking about all the tools they are offered.
These are very valid observations. As veteran role-players, our first reaction was, “The wild animals escaped? Let’s take them down!” And we quickly whipped out our weapons. The new player wanted to try something new.
also provided the other characters let her try, allow her a nature check (or handle animal if you deem more appropriate) to see if she can lead the animals away. Obviously if they are being attacked they aren't going to just leave but maybe she can find a way to lure 1 or 2 off while the others fight the rest.
As the DM, let players try that sort of thing. Just don't let it be to easy.
We can be easy with her. It’s her first time! Anyway, she’s the GM’s best friend, so I think the GM will be lenient with her.
Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'll suggest that she pumps up her Diplomacy skill to the max so she can use that. Also, maybe she can use Craft "MacGuyver-style," ie, scrounging up things and making something useful.
Also, where can I find alchemy or potions, like tanglefoot bags and things like that?
Alchemical items can be found scattered in a few sources, as I mentioned earlier. The Player's Handbook, Eberron Player's Guide, Race of the Dragon have a few. I think the Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel have a few as well. And if your DM allows 3.0 sources, Tome and Blood had an healing alchemical salve that could substitute for a potion of Cure Light.
Potions, however, are magic items, so they can't be crafted with a skill. You need to actually be able to cast spells to make them in addition to the rest of the normal prerequisites, so they are out of your grasp.
Even though we're not using magic, the GM may allow crafting potions with a skill.
In that case, that would open a ton of non-combat options for her. The standard rules for brewing potions are in the Dungeon Master's Guide. There's no set list for potions, though the DMG does provide a list of common ones for convenience. You can make a potion or oil of any non-personal spell of 3rd level or lower that has a casting time of 1 minute or less.
Since potions are use activate and only target the imbiber (or object, in the case of oils), they are very impracticable for direct offense (as much fun as lobbing a Potion of Fireball grenade would be). Though since your friend is trying to avoid direct combat options, that should be a non-issue. However, she would have access to plenty of spells that indirectly aid combat by buffing the target.
If you can convince your DM to eschew the XP cost as well that would be even better since she wouldn't need worry about XP opportunity costs. Just the amount of gold she has on hand.
Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'll suggest that she pumps up her Diplomacy skill to the max so she can use that. Also, maybe she can use Craft "MacGuyver-style," ie, scrounging up things and making something useful.
Also, where can I find alchemy or potions, like tanglefoot bags and things like that?
Alchemical items can be found scattered in a few sources, as I mentioned earlier. The Player's Handbook, Eberron Player's Guide, Race of the Dragon have a few. I think the Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel have a few as well. And if your DM allows 3.0 sources, Tome and Blood had an healing alchemical salve that could substitute for a potion of Cure Light.
Potions, however, are magic items, so they can't be crafted with a skill. You need to actually be able to cast spells to make them in addition to the rest of the normal prerequisites, so they are out of your grasp.
Even though we're not using magic, the GM may allow crafting potions with a skill.
In that case, that would open a ton of non-combat options for her. The standard rules for brewing potions are in the Dungeon Master's Guide. There's no set list for potions, though the DMG does provide a list of common ones for convenience. You can make a potion or oil of any non-personal spell of 3rd level or lower that has a casting time of 1 minute or less.
Since potions are use activate and only target the imbiber (or object, in the case of oils), they are very impracticable for direct offense (as much fun as lobbing a Potion of Fireball grenade would be). Though since your friend is trying to avoid direct combat options, that should be a non-issue. However, she would have access to plenty of spells that indirectly aid combat by buffing the target.
If you can convince your DM to eschew the XP cost as well that would be even better since she wouldn't need worry about XP opportunity costs. Just the amount of gold she has on hand.
Sweet. Thanks.
i'd suggest checking out the book of exalted deeds (3e), because if she's really into non-violence, they've got all sorts of holy vows that she'd really benefit from. i mean, if you're going to religiously avoid bloodshed, you might as well be rewarded for doing it, right?
