Of those the best option I have found is the leopard (which we are playing as a cougar).
In reading the "wild shape" rules I see the following:
"The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level."
Well, a leopard is a 3HD animal. BUT, in the DMG or Monster Manual it talks about how you create monsters with additional hit dice. Gaining additional hit dice provides other benefits too. One of the things I found perusing the online d20 reference was that higher hit dice monsters should use different arrays than "normal" monsters. They list a "non-elite" and an "elite" array.
It seems to me that since the world my druid lives in has leopards (cougars) with as many as 6 hit dice, that she should be able to wild shape into a 6HD leopard (cougar). So I went through all the rules around improving monsters and reverse engineered the leopard's racial bonuses and then applied the "elite" array to that to create a 6HD leopard(cougar) just as I would do if I were running a campaign and creating a family of leopards with a leopard patriarch.
The end result is a slighly better leopard (cougar) that my druid could wild shape into. In general it's got a +1 to most attacks and saving throws and a +2 to AC when compared to a "normal" leopard (cougar).
I think this is completely RAW. I don't think my 6th level druid should be forced to wild shape into a 3HD animal. Has anyone else done anything like this?
If it's available to you, check out the PHB2's alternate wild shape rules. I much prefer them as they simplfy the whole ability.
Note that you use all of your stats except for the physical ones and then adjust accordingly. You're not playing the 3HD cougar out of the MM, but you're playing a cougar with your HD and HP, a level 6 druid's Base Attack Bonus, class bonuses to saves, feats, and skills. So you'd be doing his claw and bite at +8 if you had Weapon Finesse, or a +7 if you don't. Fort +7, Reflex +6 and then the druid's base +5 plus your own wisdom mod.
Not sure if you're doing this already but it doesn't sound like you are.
You change into the "most common" version of that animal, which is recorded in the Monster Manual. Technically you're already playing a "6HD" cougar.
Note that you use all of your stats except for the physical ones and then adjust accordingly. You're not playing the 3HD cougar out of the MM, but you're playing a cougar with your HD and HP, a level 6 druid's Base Attack Bonus, class bonuses to saves, feats, and skills. So you'd be doing his claw and bite at +8 if you had Weapon Finesse, or a +7 if you don't. Fort +7, Reflex +6 and then the druid's base +5 plus your own wisdom mod.
Not sure if you're doing this already but it doesn't sound like you are.
Yes, I'm doing all that. With a normal leopard I get a 15 AC, with the 6HD version I get a 17 AC and I gain a +1 to most bonuses and saves, etc.
So, I play a level 6 druid in a 3.5e game. My DM is restricting my wild shape options to animals I know about that he has written up in the monster manual.
Your DM is running it correctly.
I think this is completely RAW.
It's not. First, leopards can only be advanced to 5HD. Second, in advancing from 3HD to 5HD, the leopard gains:
- 2d8+4 hp
- +1 point of BAB
- +1 Fort, +1 Will
...and that's it. None of those changes affect your druid's wild shape at all.
Now, it's true that a DM putting together a 5HD leopard to challenge a party might choose to alter its ability scores, but those changes are governed (in a section intended for DMs and not for players) by words like "often" and "may"--not "should", as you write.
I don't think my 6th level druid should be forced to wild shape into a 3HD animal.
You already have arguably the best mechanics/class features in the game, including an animal companion that at 6th level is already starting to eclipse the fighter class. You have the option of replacing your worst ability scores with good ones, as well as tripling the number of attacks/round you're entitled to, twice a day with no effect on your already-formidable spellcasting abilities. You're plenty good enough already.
You change into the "most common" version of that animal, which is recorded in the Monster Manual. Technically you're already playing a "6HD" cougar.
Note that you use all of your stats except for the physical ones and then adjust accordingly. You're not playing the 3HD cougar out of the MM, but you're playing a cougar with your HD and HP, a level 6 druid's Base Attack Bonus, class bonuses to saves, feats, and skills. So you'd be doing his claw and bite at +8 if you had Weapon Finesse, or a +7 if you don't. Fort +7, Reflex +6 and then the druid's base +5 plus your own wisdom mod.
Not sure if you're doing this already but it doesn't sound like you are.
Yes, I'm doing all that. With a normal leopard I get a 15 AC, with the 6HD version I get a 17 AC and I gain a +1 to most bonuses and saves, etc.
The bonuses the leopard gets to his hit dice, base attack bonus natural armor and saves are a product of his 3 animal class levels he's gained inbetween being 3HD and 6HD. Meanwhile you also gain bonuses to your hit dice, saves and base attack bonus through your druid class levels. I don't see what the issue is here. You -already- turn into the equivalent of a 6HD leopard when you change into a leopard. You just want the bonuses from the leopards 3 animal class levels as well? Do you want his skill points and his feats as well?
Multi-class leopard if you really need them that much I guess.
One reason I posted the question was to see if I was doing the advancement correctly. I did see that the advancement listed HD 4-5, and if leopards can only advance to level 5 then that's fine. I'd still expect a druid to wild shape into a 5 HD leopard, not a 3 HD one.
Since my druid is capable of wild shaping into an animal with 6 hit die, I'm just wanting to do that. To me to not allow a class to use the full capability of their powers is essentially nerfing the class. It's like telling a wizard "Sure, I know the PHB SAYS you can cast third level spells now, but you just haven't actually FOUND any yet."
Yes, I'm trying to find a RAW way to get the best wild shape I am entitled to. For some reason I don't even remotely feel a need to apologize for that.
You already have arguably the best mechanics/class features in the game, including an animal companion that at 6th level is already starting to eclipse the fighter class. You have the option of replacing your worst ability scores with good ones, as well as tripling the number of attacks/round you're entitled to, twice a day with no effect on your already-formidable spellcasting abilities. You're plenty good enough already.
I'm not sure you are doing the HD advancement properly. I was certain that ability scores were also advanced. I know they are on my animal companion using almost identical rules.
As far as my animal companion outpacing a fighter, well, maybe so if I was able to have a raptor or an ape or something. Nope, no matter what I tried to summon when I replaced my dead wolf companion, the only animal that came was a mountain lion (using leopard stats). Now leopards are pretty nice to be sure, but they don't eclipse a fighter.
Perhaps my DM is purposefully nerfing my character because he secretly feels that the druid is overpowered as you do. That's fine. We aren't having an argument about it or anything and I enjoy the heck out of my druid regardless. But that doesn't mean that I don't constantly look for LEGAL ways to improve. Next time we go into town I'm going to try to buy a "rod of metamagic: extend" so that my summoning spells and/or buffs last twice as long. Am I going to find out that such rods don't exist because my druid is "overpowered?" Well, what about our sorcerer? Does that mean he can't use those rods either?
I'm not sure you are doing the HD advancement properly. I was certain that ability scores were also advanced. I know they are on my animal companion using almost identical rules.
Your animal companion uses very different rules, actually. Monsters don't change their abilities unless they change size categories or the DM changes their ability score array (which is what you want to do).
As far as my animal companion outpacing a fighter, well, maybe so if I was able to have a raptor or an ape or something. Nope, no matter what I tried to summon when I replaced my dead wolf companion, the only animal that came was a mountain lion (using leopard stats). Now leopards are pretty nice to be sure, but they don't eclipse a fighter.
I direct you thusly to the ultimate statement of druid awesomeness.
Perhaps my DM is purposefully nerfing my character because he secretly feels that the druid is overpowered as you do.
He's not, unless by "nerfing" you mean "enforcing the rules as written".
Perhaps my DM is purposefully nerfing my character because he secretly feels that the druid is overpowered as you do.
He's not, unless by "nerfing" you mean "enforcing the rules as written".
Selectively enforcing rules to limit a character's potential while refusing to use rules which allow a character to reach their full potential does, in my way of thinking, qualify as "nerfing." Your mileage may vary of course.
It's not a huge deal in all honesty, I was mostly just wondering if I could beef up a standard animal since it would seem that a "real" druid would wild shape into a superior version of an animal instead of an average one, so long as the rules allow it, and they seem to.
I still read the alternate array use to mean that an animal gains the "non-elite" or "elite" arrays when they are improved. I think that's RAW too.
I would probably allow it as a DM. Not because I want druids to be more powerful, but mostly just because it "makes sense" to me that a druid would wild shape into a 5HD leopard instead of a 3HD leopard since 5HD leopards are entirely within the rules of the game. 6HD may not be, but I might even argue that...
The irony of this whole argument is that I am sure there are 6HD animals my druid could wild shape into that are far more powerful than a leopard, even an "enhanced" one. So it seems odd to me that this is considered "overpowering" a druid. Geez, most druids have raptors as animal companions whether they've ever seen a dinosaur bone or not. At least I'm trying to stay within the DM's "you can only change into what you've seen" rules, even though druids TRAIN for YEARS and STUDY animal forms with experts who have seen and know of virtually any animal you could imagine. That's why druids have societies and a secret language you know.
Selectively enforcing rules to limit a character's potential while refusing to use rules which allow a character to reach their full potential does, in my way of thinking, qualify as "nerfing." Your mileage may vary of course.
There's no selectivity here. Your DM is apparently enforcing the rules that describe the Druid's wild shape ability.
It's not a huge deal in all honesty, I was mostly just wondering if I could beef up a standard animal since it would seem that a "real" druid would wild shape into a superior version of an animal instead of an average one, so long as the rules allow it, and they seem to.
I still read the alternate array use to mean that an animal gains the "non-elite" or "elite" arrays when they are improved. I think that's RAW too.
Several people have already said this, but I'll repeat it again: you're already wild-shaping into a "superior" version of an animal, because you keep your own mental ability scores, HD, BAB, and feats. What you mean by "superior" is that you want to borrow better physical ability scores, which is not only broken, but not even what happens when you advance a monster.
What you're asking for is an additional boost to your stats while using wild shape. Your justification for this seems to be that you're no longer 3rd level, so you should have better ability scores than you did then. The rules simply don't work that way (and you haven't presented a better reason than "makes sense" for why there should be a new rule). The fact that you apparently don't like the answer doesn't change what's in the rules.
I would probably allow it as a DM. Not because I want druids to be more powerful, but mostly just because it "makes sense" to me that a druid would wild shape into a 5HD leopard instead of a 3HD leopard since 5HD leopards are entirely within the rules of the game. 6HD may not be, but I might even argue that...
Balance-wise, there are only a few things about an animal that make a difference: ability scores, attack routine, and natural armor. I'm not going to dig out my 3.5 books to check, but I'm sure there are a couple of Medium-size animals with 5 or 6HD; however, I doubt you'll get a better attack routine (claw/claw/bite is fairly standard). You may be able to scrape out another point of natural armor, and maybe on balance another point or so in modifiers out of your ability scores--and if you want to go looking, you should, because at least as far as the rules are concerned, that's the only way to improve.
The irony of this whole argument is that I am sure there are 6HD animals my druid could wild shape into that are far more powerful than a leopard, even an "enhanced" one. So it seems odd to me that this is considered "overpowering" a druid. Geez, most druids have raptors as animal companions whether they've ever seen a dinosaur bone or not. At least I'm trying to stay within the DM's "you can only change into what you've seen" rules, even though druids TRAIN for YEARS and STUDY animal forms with experts who have seen and know of virtually any animal you could imagine. That's why druids have societies and a secret language you know.
RANDOMLY yelling at PEOPLE on a MESSAGEBOARD is not a good way to get REASONABLE, HONEST answers. If you think there are better monsters out there, go look, and come back to your DM with a case that says "I should be able to be this good, and I'd still like to look like a cat. Is that okay?" You could also adopt the alternative class feature in PHB2, which is considerably more balanced and lets you look like whatever you want.