I wasn't sure where to put this as it isn't technically a question for 4E character optimization.
I am completely new to D&D and will start up with a group of friends who also are completely new to the game. The DM is a good friend of mine and has a lot of experience DMing (and swears by 3.5E) and we are all looking forward to our first session.
To the problem at hand:
I have no idea about the dynamics of the game and the frameset that limits your choices. My original idea was to make an elderly human rogue who used a one-handed weapon and an unarmed off-hand using touch spells to paralyze, chill and drain life from enemies in combat.
I have no idea whether this is realistic or not within the ruleset of the game. Any advice on skilling or even telling me the idea won't work will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Thorhauge
Secondly, my understanding is that the best rogues generally have high AC even when wearing little to no armour*, so it doesn't sound like a horrible combination to go along with a spell caster (who take penalties for wearing lots of armour).
Especially since "Invisibility," being a level 2 spell, only requires 12 CHA and 4 levels in Sorcerer, would let you do Rogue Sneak Attack damage even without a partner, and even at Sorcerer 4 it can already be used 3 times a day for 4 minutes each time.
"Cat's Grace" and "Bull's Strength" are also the same level, either would give +2 to attack rolls ("Cat's Grace" if you use DEX, "Bull's Strength" if you use STR) for the same amount of time, and you would only need Sorcerer 5 to learn Invisibility AND either Strength or Grace instead of only one (at which point each would last 5 minutes instead of just 4).
Now, being the same spell level, you could only use 4 of those spells total (1 Invisibility + 3 Grace, etc...) per day at Sorcerer 5, not 4 of each, but you would only need to get to Sorcerer 7 to get the maximum of 6 lvl 2 spells per day (4 Invisibility + 2 Bull, etc...), and at this point they would each last 7 minutes instead of just 4-5.
All of this is not counting how many more times you could cast the same spells per day if you have an extremely high CHA score (+1 lvl2 spells/day at CHA 12-19, +2 at 20-27...). All in all, it looks like DEX and CHA would by far be the most important to focus on.
Wow, now I want to do this!
Also, Nale is a famous rogue/fighter/sorcerer, and he doesn't get killed a lot
And if you don't know who that is, then www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html
www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html
and xkcd.com/1053/
*To the best of my (very newbie) knowledge (which should be ripped to pieces by anybody more experienced than me, i.e. 95% of the people here
):Attack rolls (whether you hit or not in the first place) are based on either STR (normal), which also adds a few points of damage if you do hit, or DEX ("Weapon Finesse" feat), which also adds a few points of AC to avoid opposing attacks (unless the character has heavy armour).
Since the Sneak Attack ability does far more damage than any STR bonus, dealing a few extra points of damage become less and less important compared to having a few more points in AC, so using the Weapon Finesse feat to focus on AC (from increasing your DEX) over non-SA damage (from STR) encourages Rogues to use high Dexterity instead of heavy armour.
Since spell-casters take penalties for wearing lots of armour, they would probably want a high DEX anyway for in case they get attacked in close quarters.
However, rogues and sorcerers do not start with a BAB, and Weapon Finesse requires at least a +1, so perhaps you could start with just one level in Fighter to get Weapon Finnesse quickly to survive enough battles to get the Rogue/Sorcerer levels. You would also start with more HP than if Rogue or Sorcerer was your first level.
P.S. While "Previous Editions - Character Optimization" may have been a bit more specifically what you were looking for, I don't think that his is a through-and-through "bad" place to post. And even if I'm wrong and it is, the mods could just move it when they find out.
community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/7588... is a link to where you probably wanted to post.
Your concept is going to be pretty hard to do, to be honest. Especially with those specific classes. Can I ask why you chose them, and if you are tied to them? If you have the players handbook 2, the duskblade class basically does exactly what you are looking for.
Tip #1 for playing 3.5 - Noncasters should almost always multiclass, casters should almost never. If you follow this rule, your characters will be much stronger.
Your concept is going to be pretty hard to do, to be honest. Especially with those specific classes.
How so? It seems to me like they would go together pretty well.
While it would take longer to get special abilities (Opportunist, Crippling Strike, Slippery Mind etc.), a Rogue would only lose 2d6 from his Sneak Attack (≈7 damage / attack) by having 4 Sorcerer levels instead of 4 more Rogue levels, or 3d6 from having 1 Fighter and 5 Sorcerer levels (≈10.5 / attack) instead of 6 more Rogue levels, and it seems like having Invisibiility 3-4 times a day would more than make up for that by giving him more Sneak Attacks in the first place. There are Rogue feats that take off at least as much SA damage as the price for the special bonus.
As a complete homicidal psychopath once said: "Quantity is it's own quality."
I am not completely set on the rogue/sorcerer combination - I just figured that would be a logical choice for the kind of stealthy, assasinating, touch-based mage I was considering. I had never considered other classes outside 3.5E PH version 1 for sake of simplicity since this is my first play, but Dusklade does seem like a logical choice considering his Arcane Channeling ability. I would, however miss out on the stealthy, assasination aspects of the character I found exciting.
So I am not completely tied on that combination, I just figured, that it would be a logical combination for a rogueish, magic assasin. Maybe a Duskblade/Rogue combination to incorporate Stealth Attacks and Sneaking?
Thanks again for your help Krusk and Beldak_Serpenthelm
Your concept is going to be pretty hard to do, to be honest. Especially with those specific classes.
How so? It seems to me like they would go together pretty well.
They don't. To be a decent caster you need to max your caster level. Dropping 4 levels into rogue means you won't be a decent caster ever.
A duskblade 20 does basically exactly what you want. Don't multiclass. Sneak attacks are cool, but they aren't the be all and end all. And if you aren't setting up a method to get 5/6+ a round, its probably not worth doing at all. You will be better served by single classing and getting more powerful spells.
Your concept is going to be pretty hard to do, to be honest. Especially with those specific classes.
How so? It seems to me like they would go together pretty well.They don't. To be a decent caster you need to max your caster level. Dropping 4 levels into rogue means you won't be a decent caster ever.
While I haven't been able to find very much information on Duskblades, and they could very well be far better than I think:
Would a primary-Rogue with 4 levels in Sorcerer (whose magic would primarily supplement their already incredible hand-to-hand combat) work better than a primary-Sorcerer with 4 levels in Rogue (whose hand-to-hand combat would only detract from their otherwise incredible magic)?
Your concept is going to be pretty hard to do, to be honest. Especially with those specific classes.
How so? It seems to me like they would go together pretty well.They don't. To be a decent caster you need to max your caster level. Dropping 4 levels into rogue means you won't be a decent caster ever.
A duskblade 20 does basically exactly what you want. Don't multiclass. Sneak attacks are cool, but they aren't the be all and end all. And if you aren't setting up a method to get 5/6+ a round, its probably not worth doing at all. You will be better served by single classing and getting more powerful spells.
A duskblade does seem like a contributor to the main playstyle as this type of character. The group I will be playing with just doesn't have a skillmonkey or stealth character I think could benefit the group and provide good group dynamics. Well, that and I really liked the idea of sneaking for both combat and RPing purposes. I was thinking, that a rogue level of 2 for evasion, trapfinding, sneak attack and the skill point boost was sufficient and then multiclassing to Duskblade from thereon out and perhaps picking up the Able Learner feat to keep Rogue skills high.
I have also been thinking of getting to the Daggerspell Mage prestige class but I am unsure as to how to meet the requirement of arcane caster levl 5. Daggerspell Mages gain Sneak Attacks and can channel touch spells through daggers like the Duskblade so they seem like a natural extension.
Thanks again for your input
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