Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 BlackRequiem Oct 16, 2008 0:17:00	I'm.. not happy with the results of a game last Saturday. First of all, we're 6th-7th level and very well geared for our level. We have a Cleric, Rogue, me ( Wizard\Swordsage\JPM ), Warblade and a Wizard. What it boiled down to was one PC went to personally deal with his Orc step-father ( long story.. ) and beat him to death with his mace before he could even get initiative ( surprise round, good init rolls, GREAT damage rolls from a +3 Holy mace ). Ok, all that coolness aside, he's in over his head and uses an item to contact us for back up and afterwards I use one of our only two scrolls to teleport us to his location after some very quick prep time for the big confrontation. We end up battling a Cleric who had to be at least 10th or higher level because she used Righteous Might at the start of the fight. Still, we outnumbered her 5 to 1, at least till a dozen guards, one high level NPC baddie and his lower level NPC lieuteant busted in to aid her. Seems about even, right? The Cleric then proceeds to just bash on us with her mace. No spellcasting, no AoOs taken when people move around her to get at the guards, nothing. Just 'durr hurr *swing - MISS!*' for three rounds before I single-handedly beat her to death with my character. The other NPC bbeg is decapitated by a lucky 20 on a longsword with the Vorpal property on the first attack against him that session, and the other NPC is killed in one shot by an equally lucky critical hit with an enchanted composite bow. The other two NPCs? Sure, they were pure luck however disappointing as the DM seemed to have a grasp for sneaky tactics what with them entering invisible for Sneak Attacks. But the Cleric? SERIOUSLY? An Evil Cleric of 10+ level gets to her position of power by mindlessly bashing on random targets till she dies? I'm not even sure if the guy looked at her spell list or not. What I'm more afraid of is he doesn't even research what things do in D&D and just grabs things on the fly ( I did one time have to inform him what Circle Against Evil does after an attempted Mass Hold Person.. ) and runs with it. This has me.. concerned. I don't like unchallenging fights but I ESPECIALLY hate it when DMs either A.) pull their punches or B.) don't know any better because they're too lazy or inexperienced to formulate how it works. In all honesty we should've been eating some Holy Death while being bogged down with level 2 Fighter guards in decent quality gear while two level 5-8 Rogues out flank our squishier party members ( me namely! ) but that's not what happened. So I come to you guys.. What should I do?
#2 entropy_judge Oct 16, 2008 0:39:57	In general, communication is the big thing: talk to your DM, because if he doesn't know that you aren't happy with the way things are going, he's not going to be able to fix them. Maybe he is pulling punches - he might have been afraid he would TPK you if he actually used all the spells; of course, that is more likely a problem of inexperience. In that case, you have a couple options: 1) Switch DMs, at least until he gets his feet under him and knows how to run everything. 2) Tutor him. Give him tactical exercises so that he can learn how to run multiple high-level figures in combat (who knows? Maybe he's forgetful and meant for it to be a Fighter and not a Cleric, or maybe he didn't want someone as tough as a fighter but needed someone who could hit like one, hence the Righteous Might), especially spell-casters. 3) Multi-DM. Probably not a good idea, but you (or another player) could bow out of the campaign to run battles while he runs the story. In any case, though, what you really need to do is talk with him, and find out why you had such an easy time. Try not to be confrontational - you don't want to upset him or hurt his feelings, after all. Maybe you should talk about how lucky you were to get near insta-kills on the other two before the Cleric could start lobbing "Holy Death" around, or ask him if he's getting overworked trying to run the campaign, and slide into it from there. Also, make sure to talk to the other players as well - maybe they like the level of challenge that encounter brings, after all, and if you're the only one who's really bothered by it .... If the others feel the same way as you, however, I would suggest either assigning a spokesperson to talk to your DM, or each person having an individual meeting with him at different points throughout the week (personally, I'd go with the spokesperson idea). If you all go together, he might feel like you're ganging up on him, and if he *is* feeling stressed out or overworked, he might blow up on you (of course, you know him better than I, but it can still happen).
#3 BlackRequiem Oct 16, 2008 0:52:14	In general, communication is the big thing: talk to your DM, because if he doesn't know that you aren't happy with the way things are going, he's not going to be able to fix them. Maybe he is pulling punches - he might have been afraid he would TPK you if he actually used all the spells; of course, that is more likely a problem of inexperience. In that case, you have a couple options: 1) Switch DMs, at least until he gets his feet under him and knows how to run everything. 2) Tutor him. Give him tactical exercises so that he can learn how to run multiple high-level figures in combat (who knows? Maybe he's forgetful and meant for it to be a Fighter and not a Cleric, or maybe he didn't want someone as tough as a fighter but needed someone who could hit like one, hence the Righteous Might), especially spell-casters. 3) Multi-DM. Probably not a good idea, but you (or another player) could bow out of the campaign to run battles while he runs the story. In any case, though, what you really need to do is talk with him, and find out why you had such an easy time. Try not to be confrontational - you don't want to upset him or hurt his feelings, after all. Maybe you should talk about how lucky you were to get near insta-kills on the other two before the Cleric could start lobbing "Holy Death" around, or ask him if he's getting overworked trying to run the campaign, and slide into it from there. Also, make sure to talk to the other players as well - maybe they like the level of challenge that encounter brings, after all, and if you're the only one who's really bothered by it .... If the others feel the same way as you, however, I would suggest either assigning a spokesperson to talk to your DM, or each person having an individual meeting with him at different points throughout the week (personally, I'd go with the spokesperson idea). If you all go together, he might feel like you're ganging up on him, and if he *is* feeling stressed out or overworked, he might blow up on you (of course, you know him better than I, but it can still happen). It's definitely a very roleplay focused D&D group. But all of their fights were, at least before I came in, 'big and difficult' so this was a real let down. I was hoping we'd have an interesting encounter amidst a sea of dialog and drama but had those hopes dashed. I'm not sure if it's the other players or if he just had a brain fart or what and do aim to speak with him about it. It's not he first time he's pulled his punches, but... not with such a big encounter. This was the culmination of half a campaign's worth of efforts, spanning a good 6-8 months ( I came in half way ) so to say the least it was a bit of a let down even if the Cleric gets to strut his stuff about being 'vindicated' and 'righteous'.
#4 etarnon Oct 18, 2008 3:54:53	Think about how you'd feel if you had gotten tpk'ed. Offer to run your own game when the current one ends and show him by example... you know you wanna. ;)
#5 kyomamoru Oct 18, 2008 4:28:59	The other NPC bbeg is decapitated by a lucky 20 on a longsword with the Vorpal property on the first attack against him that session. So you're level 6 to 7 characters, and someone has a VORPAL WEAPON? 6th level characters = 13,000 Gp wealth 7th level characters = 19,000 GP wealth. A Vorpal weapon is a +5 enchantment worth 50,000 gp, and one that many, many, many DMs would -refuse- to allow in their game. This stands out to me as a sign that the DM isn't able to pace the items properly among other things, such as fights.
#6 Arcane_Guyver Oct 18, 2008 13:13:48	It's definitely a very roleplay focused D&D group. But all of their fights were, at least before I came in, 'big and difficult' so this was a real let down. So, would you say your presence has helped eliminate much of the challenge of the campaign, or is the DM just not trying as hard? I was hoping we'd have an interesting encounter amidst a sea of dialog and drama but had those hopes dashed. In my experience, lots of good luck or planning on the players' side will render most any encounters boring. The DM, seeing creatures he spent possibly hours putting together getting hacked down with such ease might have mentally just said "**** it, let 'em win, I don't care anymore." I know I've come very close to that recently in my own 3e game.
#7 arizonagoatee Oct 18, 2008 13:34:18	Sounds like you might have just had a dud game. It's the kind of situation where you'd be rightly disappointed, but it also seems like these feelings after a game are the exception, not the rule? So, most likely, you've been enjoying the campaign for the most part, but sometimes this sort of thing crops up? That's what I'm judging from your two posts. That being said, I understand where you're coming from. I DM a game, but I also play in two others during the week. Because of this, I'm pretty sensitive any time a situation arises that didn't turn out how "I would do things." Expectations (and whether they are met) are a big factor in any player's enjoyment of the game. It sounds like you're expecting tense, challenging encounters, especially when it's a dramatic "boss fight." The first thing I'd recommend is to make sure your DM and the other players are on the same page as you are. Maybe the last group this guy DMed for had entirely different needs, and preferred an easier game. Or maybe the current group favors that style of play. Talk it over and see if this was an actual mistake, or just the DM's way of running the game. If this is the preferred style of the group, then a compromise can still be reached. Talk to the DM and see if he can include the occasional more difficult encounter for your sake. Who knows? You might even win over the others to the more exciting way of gaming. If it was simply an error in judgement on your DM's part, you might just have to chalk it up to human fallibility, especially if you've said the other encounters you've played through so far have been more tense and difficult. Finally, there's the possibility that you're just doing too much metathinking. In 4th Edition, monsters are not built according to the same rules as players are. It could be that your DM simply had a low level cleric to whom he wanted to give the power Righteous Might. That might have been the most graceful way for him to make an encounter that was both challenging, used a power he wanted to showcase, and not obliterate your party. If this is true, then you were only disappointed because you have extensive knowledge of the game rules. If it becomes a major issue, ask the DM to keep the names and exact properties of monsters and their powers to himself.