If what goes where on the character sheet is confusing, I recommend you pop over to www.myth-weavers.com. Register a free account and use their Overfiend character sheet system to create your character. The server takes care of most of the calculations.
I'm not looking for a tool that will build my character for me. I'm looking for a step-by-step example of creating a character, including how each step affects which spaces on the character sheet.
I went to a gameday event, and later, using the PHB, tried to reproduce the premade character WoTC had provided, but some of my numbers didn't match up, and a lot of the time during the exercise, was confused about what to do next.
If my numbers are wrong for a lvl 1 character, how can I have any confidence in creating a lvl 5, or 15, character, or in teaching other people the new system?
If your numbers don't match a WotC-produced pregenerated character, if anything that just lends credence to the idea you are doing it correctly :P
Wow! why hadn't I thought of that? If I had, I could have gone to the forums and asked for a walkthrough...
Wow! why hadn't I thought of that? If I had, I could have gone to the forums and asked for a walkthrough...
Kouk's comment was meant as a dig toward WotC. Historically, the sample characters provided with various supplements contain a host of errors, including - but certainly not limited to - improper skill point calculation and/or allocation, invalid feat selections, improperly stacked modifiers, and equipment value in excess of the recommended wealth values.
I second his comment. If your numbers don't match the sample character, the odds are quite high that you are in fact doing things correctly. In doing things correctly, you may well have managed to discover an error in the sample character.
Rather than ask for a walkthrough, perhaps post back with specific issues you're having. It's far easier to answer specific questions than broad ones.
The "Cleave" Exploit says that it does 1[W] + Strength Modifier damage to first target, and Strength Modifier damage to the secondary. However, the premade character has this as 1d12+5 to the first, and 3 to the second.
One of two things is going on here. Either there is a +2 in the [W] (which would contradict the explanation on 276), or they're talking about two different Strength Modifiers. (or 3: WoTC screwed up their calculations)
(basic melee damage is 1d12+5 ; Str is 16, Dwarven Weapon Training feat gives +2 dmg)
Looking at the encounter power for this character, which specifies 2[W]+StrMod, and is 2d12+5 on the premade, that seems to rule out the first option, as the +2 isn't doubled.
What am I missing?
So lets say you're weilding a longsword which is 1d8.
You have a Str of 16 giving you a +3.
So you'd do 2d8+3. 2[d8]+str
2[w]+2*str would double all values. or you could have 1[w]+str*2 which would be the same thing and a little easier to read.
hope that helps.
Ok, specific question then:
The "Cleave" Exploit says that it does 1[W] + Strength Modifier damage to first target, and Strength Modifier damage to the secondary. However, the premade character has this as 1d12+5 to the first, and 3 to the second.
One of two things is going on here. Either there is a +2 in the [W] (which would contradict the explanation on 276), or they're talking about two different Strength Modifiers. (or 3: WoTC screwed up their calculations)
(basic melee damage is 1d12+5 ; Str is 16, Dwarven Weapon Training feat gives +2 dmg)
Looking at the encounter power for this character, which specifies 2[W]+StrMod, and is 2d12+5 on the premade, that seems to rule out the first option, as the +2 isn't doubled.
What am I missing?
It looks to me like you already wrote out the explanation. Dwarven Weapon Training is the difference.
4e is going for an exceptions-based rule system, with a few general rules, and some specifics that are exceptions and take precedence over those general rules, and further specifics that take precedence, etc.
The basic rule for attacks is that it does [W] plus Strength Modifier (plus half your level). Since the greataxe is a d12 for [W], and your Strength Modifier is 3 (derived from your strength score by subtracting ten and dividing by two, rounding down), you would normally deal 1d12+3 damage.
The exception is Dwarven Weapon Training. It gives that extra +2 to damage rolls with axes and hammers.
So your basic attack deals 1d12+5 damage.
Your Cleave exploit on a hit deals 1[W]+StrMod. DWT modifies it to 1[W]+StrMod+2(if using axe or hammer). So that's 1d12+5 damage. Cleave also says that, on a hit, another enemy takes StrMod damage. You don't get that extra +2, because it's a flat amount, and not a damage roll.
Does that help? I'm sure you've got lots more.
I'm a brand new player, never played any other D&D game, and wanted to get my friends into this new version. I just got the books a couple of days ago, and we all sat down to try to create our characters. Without some 'quick start' guide, we were pretty lost for at least 3 hours of us searching through the books to try to figure it out.
Not that we're a dumb bunch, we just have never done it before, so we didn't know what to expect.
I'd say by the end of the night we got about halfway through creating a wizard. We couldn't find out how many powers you were allowed to get at level 1
.4E was designed for old gamers and more particularly new, getting rid of overcomplicated rules and making it more friendly to introductory players. The wording behind most of the books thus far doesn't lend itself well to this and neither does the layout. My wife abhors DnD, because it's "so complicated." So, I showed her the new books and her first impression was "Oooooo....pretty." And, I must admit, the artwork is beautiful for just about any RPG out there. However, when I showed her the classes, she scratched her head a bit, when I showed her the classes, she pointed to the old AD&D 2nd ed. and said I'd have a better chance of getting her to play that (mind you she has patently refused to play 2nd ed and I have refused to teach it, but she has played 3rd.); the lay out of 4E really was that scary to her, A few others I showed agreed that it seemed very complicated. Once they were sat down and explained, the attitude changed, but I don't see my residuals coming in from WotC--a game, especially one designed to be more welcoming *should* sell itself.
But, I digress. I like 4e. I haven't decided if I like it more or less than 3.x yet, but I do like it. And, I'm willing to help others like it. I propose that perhaps, as a community, we take the time to throw some of that learning curve nuance back into the game and comprise a post/article on just what Kouk originally asked, and then perhaps the others as well.
The exception is Dwarven Weapon Training. It gives that extra +2 to damage rolls with axes and hammers.
...
Does that help? I'm sure you've got lots more.
Grr. TY. After 3.5, I should have been alert for those tiny words that change the meaning drastically.
Actually, since originally posting, I'd figured all the other things out, so that was the only thing stopping me from duplicating the premade. So either I'm now doing it right, or I'm making the same mistakes WoTC did.
I do think the walkthrough Epoch mentions could be helpful.
Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition
Character Creation Walk Through
As several posters have mentioned, there are several confusing rules out there for the DnD4e. It’s the same with all editions, though, there will always be questions and there will always be “intent vs. by the letter” variations. This is an attempt to lay out character creation “like they used to.” We’re going to take a hypothetical situation or two and walk you step-by-step through the character creation process. The actual “rules” won’t be discussed here, but what goes into creating a character from step one through 29 (or whatever it really ends up being) will be.
Having seen the fun his friends are having every Saturday during their weekly gaming session, Mike decides to join their adventuring party. He has his own copy of the Players Handbook, and has read through most of it. It’s almost game night, and he still has a lot of questions, but his friends assure him that’s okay—the best way to learn is by playing, and they’re going to help him have a fun time. So, the most important thing Mike needs to do right now is create a character.
Mike has a blank copy of the 4th Edition character sheet, some blank paper, dice and a pencil. That’s what his friends told him he’d need, and they’re right. Mike has talked to his friends and knows one is playing an eldarin wizards, another is playing a human rogue, one is a elf ranger, and another a dwarf fighter. It’s a very mixed crew, as the idea behind the adventure is a series of adventurers coming to a small, backwater town in search of a legendary treasure, which recent reports have suggested is in the nearby mountains. There have been no restrictions placed on Mike, although his friends have asked that he consider someone who can help the group heal through their adventures.
For a time, Mike considers the cleric, but something doesn’t really click with that idea. The idea of playing a dragonborn really intrigues Mike. He thinks it would be cool to be part dragon in a fantasy game, and their breath weapon would be helpful in a pinch. Since the dragonborn are supposed to be proud and honorable warriors, Mike settles on a paladin rather than cleric, which can still help the party heal, but also help protect the party, so they may not need to heal as much. He goes one step further to read over the deities presented and decides that his character will worship Bahamut. Mike marks this information down on his scrap paper, as he’s not locked into anything at this point.
Mike decides next to find his character’s ability scores. These are important. Ability scores are the basis for skills and most combat abilities within the game. Mike’s DM already told him that they are using Method 3 from page 18 of the PHB to determine ability scores. This means Mike will need to roll 4d6. Mike rolls a 4, 3, 3, and 6. He’s supposed to drop the lowest of the rolls, so Mike does that and adds the rest together for a total of 13. Mike marks that number down on his scrap sheet and does this 5 more times, a total of once for each of the six ability scores. The end results include 14, 12, 9, 17, and 11—very nice scores.
Mike takes more time to read over each of the ability scores and how they’re important before assigning his rolls. Strength would be nice, because it allows him to do more damage with melee weapons and a better chance to hit with those weapons. It also allows him to carry more gear, which might be important for someone he sees wearing heaving armor and toting around a shield. Dexterity can add to the character’s AC, but he’ll already be wearing pretty good armor, so that’s not as important to him. Dexterity is also useful for a number of skills, like thievery, acrobatics, and stealth, but he doesn’t see himself using those. Ranged combat is impacted by a character’s Dexterity as well, but again, Mike doesn’t see his character as making much use of that. Next, there is Constitution. This is helpful, Mike thinks, because it adds Hit Points, making the character tougher. Constitution also assists in Fortitude saves and endurance checks, both things Mike sees as being important to his character concept. Intelligence is beneficial to spell casters and for knowledge skills. Looking back at the paladin description, Mike sees that the types of divine powers his character will be using rely more on Strength, Wisdom and Charisma than on Intelligence, so this ability isn’t high on his list, either. Wisdom is somewhat important, as it adds to the characters ability in the way of Will saves and a number of the paladins divine prayers. Charisma is also important to Mike, because he wants people to like his character, and a number of the paladin powers are based on the character’s Charisma.
Mike must also remember as a dragonborn get a +2 to Strength and a +2 to Charisma right off the bat.
After weighing his decisions, Mike decides to assign his ability scores in the following manner:
Strength 19 (17+2 from dragonborn)
Dexterity 12
Constitution 14
Intelligence 11
Wisdom 13
Charisma 11 (9+2 from dragonborn)
He records this information now as well. It seems like his character will be able to deal a lot of damage in a fight, but might be lacking in other areas. It still makes a well-rounded character.
Next, Mike takes a look at his chosen class: the Paladin. Right down the line, Mike records information listed under the class traits section.
Armor Proficiencies: cloth, leather, hide, chain mail, scale, plate, light shield, heavy shield.
Weapon Proficiencies: simple melee, military melee, and simple ranged.
Implements: holy symbol
Bonus Saves: +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex, +1 Will
Hit Points at 1st Level : 15 + Constitution Score (15+14) for a total of 29.
Healing Surges per Day: 10 + Constitution modifier (10+2) for a total of 12.
Now, Mike needs to take a minute, because he’s come to the skill selection part of his class. Automatically, Mike’s paladin gets Religion as a trained skill. He gets to choose three more skills from the provided list. After reading over the skills and their description, Mike decides to make his character’s trained skills Diplomacy, Endurance, History, and Religion (free with class). These seem to round out his ideas a bit more on the honor bound, dragonborn paladin.
Mike looks over the class builds, and realizes he doesn’t really like either of them—he wants to be somewhere between the two. Mike also realizes this might change during play, but there are no rules forcing him to take either build; they’re just suggestions. He quickly jots down the class features and notes about each, so he knows what they do. The class features are Channel Divinity, Divine Challenge, and Lay on Hands.
Next, Mike knows he needs to choose his characters powers, which are called prayers for the Paladin. According to the chart on page 29 of the PHB, Mike knows his character knows two at-will powers, 1 encounter power, and 1 daily power. He looks over the different ones available, knowing that he can use at-will powers whenever he chooses, encounter powers only once during an encounter, and daily powers only once a day.
The powers Mike’s character gains from his class features do not count against the limit of how many powers the paladin knows. These are in addition to that. Furthermore, since Mike is playing a level one character the prayers his paladin has access to are only from the 1st level. He must wait to gain in experience and levels before choosing the more powerful powers known. Mike decides to take Valiant Strike and Holy Strike for his level 1 at-will prayers. For his level one encounter power, Mike decides to take Shielding Smite, because he truly sees his paladin as both a defender and an avenger. For the paladin’s level one daily power, Mike takes On Pain of Death. He writes this all down, knowing he can come back and grab the details later.
The next step for Mike to create his character is to select the characters feat. At level one, as a dragonborn, Mike’s paladin only gets one feat. He looks over the feat selection, knowing his is proficient with all the weapons and armor he wants to be at this time. There are some great choices, and Mike is a little dismayed to know he can’t take everything he wants, but knows he’ll get a chance to add to his character as the paladin increases in level. Mike decides to take Armor of Bahamut feat, as it requires that the character possess the Channel Divinity feature and worship Bahamut, which his character does both.
There are only a few things to do before calling his character done. Most of this is considered filling in the blanks. Mike’s DM has told him to take the standard 100gp to purchase gear for his paladin, and Mike will also need to come up with a back story. Other than that, the character is ready for naming, playing, and transferring over to the character sheet.
The part that I got hung up on was choosing weapons and putting stuff in the attack and bonus areas of the sheet. That part just seemed overwhelming to me. Might want to expand on that part.
Minor error: Mike picked the religion skill twice. Or if that's intentional under some rule that I don't know, might want to mention it.
The part that I got hung up on was choosing weapons and putting stuff in the attack and bonus areas of the sheet. That part just seemed overwhelming to me. Might want to expand on that part.
Yup, fixed the skill part, and am working on the other stuff you mentioned, but, using PS to point out specifics on the sheet along with text. Like I said, far from done, but a start, and comments do help.
Wow! why hadn't I thought of that? If I had, I could have gone to the forums and asked for a walkthrough...
This is where I stop considering being helpful. You're here asking for something from others, remember that.
We couldn't find out how many powers you were allowed to get at level 1
Page 29. You would think it would be at the beginning of the classes chapter, but organization in general really isn't that great. Also, 3 hours. Ouch. When I first picked up Fudge I was able to create a character in 5 minutes. Wotc needs to learn formatting from Grey Ghost.
I've been a player since 79 and I found this the most difficult process creating a character. I think it is mostly because of the book's layout and the layout of the included character sheet. I'm still really confused how to calculate my "base attack" and if the base attack factors in to an at-will attack or you recalculate the whole thing again for an at-will attack.
A few things that seem small but drove me nuts and led to me putting the books down (throwing) and walking away while creating a character:
OK, Powers. I'll select my powers. Wonder how many I get? Hmm... seems like it would be near where they are listed... no. I'll look in the index... not listed. Hmmm.. combat? no. How to fill out the character sheet? no. Ahhhh.. of course grrrr.. number of powers is noted under "Gaining Levels"!
OK, Weapon proficiency, there's a slot for it on my sheet. Probably in Classes right? OK, there's what weapons I am proficient in, but not the bonus. Why not? OK, index... page 219.. listed under "Reading the Weapons Table"!
C'mon guys, making a new character does not "flow" in this book. You have to turn back and forth over and over again to "known" pages to find the right info.
Yup, fixed the skill part, and am working on the other stuff you mentioned, but, using PS to point out specifics on the sheet along with text. Like I said, far from done, but a start, and comments do help.
Very nice, a little more at the beginning about what sort of character he wants to play(roleplaying stuff) would be good as intro material, but still quite good.
I hope you don't mind if I use it.
So my advice would be to take your character sheet, and assign ability scores. Go to classes, assign skills and powers. Go to races and change what needs to be changed. Go to equipment, pick the stuff up, then start working on stuff.
Odd, almost everything in the book is in the order that it is suggested you choose it in... and there aren't cases of having to skip over any chapters in order to go through character creation in most cases (choosing rituals being the exception, where you have to skip over the combat rules that aren't used for creating characters)
pgs. 14-31 are the how to build a character portion of the book, and the only thing that would be better earlier in the book is the table that says what you get at what level.
But hey, I guess a 9 point over view with a few paragraphs for each point following that even tell you what chapter to find the info you need in isn't much of a "walk through" at all now is it?
...I guess maybe "Making Characters" as a chapter name doesn't serve well enough to show people that it is the chapter in the book that tells you how to go about making a character.
pgs. 14-31 are the how to build a character portion of the book, and the only thing that would be better earlier in the book is the table that says what you get at what level.
That would be nice right at the beggining of classes, since it tells you whether or not you replace powers, as opposed to gaining them. Its current location is just stupid.
crappy organization?
Odd, almost everything in the book is in the order that it is suggested you choose it in... and there aren't cases of having to skip over any chapters in order to go through character creation in most cases (choosing rituals being the exception, where you have to skip over the combat rules that aren't used for creating characters)
pgs. 14-31 are the how to build a character portion of the book, and the only thing that would be better earlier in the book is the table that says what you get at what level.
But hey, I guess a 9 point over view with a few paragraphs for each point following that even tell you what chapter to find the info you need in isn't much of a "walk through" at all now is it?
...I guess maybe "Making Characters" as a chapter name doesn't serve well enough to show people that it is the chapter in the book that tells you how to go about making a character.
Gee, thanks Company Computer Guy. I mean, really, people have a valid concern that they're not understanding the layout Wiz chose for the books. The fact that you were able to race through and be on the same page with the developers is good for you, honestly, and there are others like you. For others, the communication was lacking complete translation. This is a discussion of what people are having trouble with and how to fix it. The equivalent of your statement, however, was "I get it, so should you." Not very helpful.
Character creation is a little vague at first, because of unfamiliarity with the issue... but I think a big portion of it is taking the time to read the whole book before you jump straight into creating a character.
I definitely apologize if you already read through it all and are still having issues.
As far as the company's computer guy comment goes, I take slight offense to that.
Gee, thanks Company Computer Guy. I mean, really, people have a valid concern that they're not understanding the layout Wiz chose for the books. The fact that you were able to race through and be on the same page with the developers is good for you, honestly, and there are others like you. For others, the communication was lacking complete translation. This is a discussion of what people are having trouble with and how to fix it. The equivalent of your statement, however, was "I get it, so should you." Not very helpful.
the equivalent of my statement was "what was wrong with organization, almost everything was in the order that it logically should have been in... what's your definition of organization?"
but yeah.. I will admit, I might as well have said "did you read the book, left to right, top to bottom, in order, from front to back?" with the tone that I ended up having.
I just don't get it though, I am not some reading wiz or some gamer info-sponge... I have no idea what better order anything (except for a few exceptions that I'm not even sure where I would put) could have been in.
The book basically goes in this order: what this game is -> how to play -> getting your character started -> your options for character details -> further depth on skill options -> further depth on feat options -> picking out your characters stuff -> two chapters of stuff that is useful, but that only the DM really needs to know -> stuff that not every character has, but is useful anyways.
And through all of that, the level up chart, the definition of [w], and the rituals chapter are the only things that I think where even slightly out of order.... but I don't know where would have actually been noticeably better to place them.
Seriously though... how could the book have been organized better? Character creation can actually be done by going straight the book from chapter 2 on with only a few characters having to skip entire chapters of info before getting what they want... and doesn't really require any flipping back and forth unless you just don't know what you want to be doing with the character.
Seriously though... how could the book have been organized better? Character creation can actually be done by going straight the book from chapter 2 on with only a few characters having to skip entire chapters of info before getting what they want... and doesn't really require any flipping back and forth unless you just don't know what you want to be doing with the character.
So, you realize that the PHB was *supposed* to be designed for new and returning players--players who very possibly would not know what they wanted from a character in the beginning, right? I read the whole book from front to back then skimmed it, then paid attention only to specific parts and suddenly found myself wondering "gee....where did I see that? did I even see that?" There are several things they could have done differently. Their decision on color coding the power to help with organization, for example, helps even color blind old me...my friend, severely more color blind than me actually gets confused with the color coding that is there. I showed the books to a handful of successful graphics artist who agreed the art was "pretty," but whoever did the layout should be shot. WW years back used to take two pages, and put basically crib notes, in terms of creating a character. There could have been better cross-indexing, if not for Wiz's fear that it would mean more work if/when future releases are put out, changing pagination. Wiz made a number of changes here, and things just aren't where/what people would expect them to be 100% of the time. Beyond that, remember how many *new* people are supposed to be looking at this game, who have never seen a game book before, and this book is akin to a programming manual in terms of friendliness. Not every cup of tea is made to suit everyone, and what's logical to you or me, may not be to someone with a different set of parameters. The fact that there have been questions and concerns like this indicates this is one of those times. I'm not saying 3d or any book by any publisher is any better. Instead, I'm saying, there is a group of people who have this issue: let's fix it, if we can.
You know, the mod + 1/2 level located on just on the right of each statistics is completly useless. all other square that you fill already use the 1/2 level, take ac for example, the 1/2 level is added with the 10. All the other save are like this as well. The only place you need to use it is for skills.
Don't forget that there are a few times where an Ability Check is called for and that 1/2 level still adds to that type of roll as well.
I can only think of the situation in which one ability is used in that manner off the top of my head though: Strength check to break something.
That's enough to have those boxes not be completely useless, although their use is extremely limited.
I just don't get it though, I am not some reading wiz or some gamer info-sponge... I have no idea what better order anything (except for a few exceptions that I'm not even sure where I would put) could have been in.
The chart for powers/feat/etc each level.
They should have some sort of notation in each class section of what page to look at.
It can be daunting for new 4E players. I had to explain this to guy who had the book (Amazon still hasn't shipped mine) after reading his.
And through all of that, the level up chart, the definition of [w], and the rituals chapter are the only things that I think where even slightly out of order.... but I don't know where would have actually been noticeably better to place them.
Yeah, the level up chart seems out of no where. I understand its use, but strange spot.
Money for 1st level is also hard to find. i found it, but I thought it could be showcased better.
Seriously though... how could the book have been organized better? Character creation can actually be done by going straight the book from chapter 2 on with only a few characters having to skip entire chapters of info before getting what they want... and doesn't really require any flipping back and forth unless you just don't know what you want to be doing with the character.
But making a character once you read the level up chart should be easy as pie.
Next, find Characterforge 1.11 (it's an excel character sheet) and download it.
With that and a PHB nearby to look up power and feat specifics, I was able to make my first character in under 10 minutes.
1) Get Character Concept (doesn't need book)
2) Read Races and the intro to the classes to figure out which is closest of both
2b) Pick Race and Class (read that class until around level 5 for abilities)
3) Point buy/ 4d6 and assign stats
3a) start all the fun number crunching (should not have any empty squares when finished)
4) Add racial abilities then class features
5) Pick at will (around 2) encounter (1) and daily (1) abilities
6) Pick skills (number (and class skills) determined by class)
7) pick feat(s) (modify stats as required)
8) spend cash (100gp)
being that over half the book is class abilities and chances are you wont need to know non class epic abilities for a while (or non class heroic isn't that necessary) half the book can be skipped (between that and paragon and epic feats which are cool reads not necessary right off the top)
yes this way does require an eraser or spreadsheet to keep track of everything when starting but then again so do current hit points and level ups
Here : http://www.nzcomputers.net/heroforge/default4e.asp
It works great
Maybe this would help?
I like that, tinwatchman... and I've used it before. I would like it even better if it were to include drow, genasi, gnolls, warforged, barbarians, artificers, and swordmages.
Well.. maybe not the play test classes.. but the others-oh yeah!
I'm going to sit with this book and cram. I'll give you my best advice. If you don't get it, read. Read. Read. Read it until your eyes bleed. Then ask a few questions on the forums and read some more, 'cause it's all there, and eventually it'll click and make sense.
Ok, specific question then:
The "Cleave" Exploit says that it does 1[W] + Strength Modifier damage to first target, and Strength Modifier damage to the secondary. However, the premade character has this as 1d12+5 to the first, and 3 to the second.
One of two things is going on here. Either there is a +2 in the [W] (which would contradict the explanation on 276), or they're talking about two different Strength Modifiers. (or 3: WoTC screwed up their calculations)
(basic melee damage is 1d12+5 ; Str is 16, Dwarven Weapon Training feat gives +2 dmg)
Looking at the encounter power for this character, which specifies 2[W]+StrMod, and is 2d12+5 on the premade, that seems to rule out the first option, as the +2 isn't doubled.
What am I missing?
I think they are trying to ask why the bonus damage from the feat doesn't go onto the secondary effect since it would still be from his weapon since the move has a weapon key word? Why isn't it 1d12+5 to the first and 5 to the 2nd? page 276 under damage when it talks about other mods being added on to the damage from a powers effect. Sorry if this has been answered already, I haven't read all the way through.
Note: I believe they will say that since the feat says "damage rolls" it would apply the the 2nd effect because you don't roll damage. It doesn't makes much sense to me even if that is what they will say! I mean you are following the swing through for the 2nd effect. IMO