4e Healing, clarification. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

4e Healing, clarification.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
exossare
Jun 17, 2009 10:25:02 I see that we have healing surges, I see that many powers grant the use of them, potions use them, and I see that we also have a second wind ability.

I guess my question is, if I have no powers that grant the use of a surge, no potions, and I have used my second wind, how do character's heal during combat?

In other words, what else can you do to gran yourself the use of a healing surge?

Thanks for the help, either in answer form, or book page reference!
#2
silent_stone
Jun 17, 2009 10:31:20 If you've already used your second wind, and you have no potions, and you don't have any abilities that let you use a healing surge (nor do you have any allies with such abilities), then simply put you don't heal in combat.

Outside of combat (during a short or extended rest), you can use healing surges to your heart's content.
#3
ctsshaw
Jun 17, 2009 10:33:37 You can't - the only way to spend a healing sure without a power to do so is via your second wind (Once per encounter).
#4
Diceman65
Jun 17, 2009 11:06:47 hello,
I am fairly new to 4e myself. I will answer your question as best as I can.
In most cases(exceptions exist) the healing your PC recieves is dependant on you having healing surges available. In every combat encouner you have one "second wind" available to you.

If you have used your second wind already in a given encounter and you are below zero hitpoints, any healing spell or healing skill check will bring you up to zero hitpoints plus one hit point. you will need to wait until after combat to use any remaining healing surges.

Not all healing powers require the target to use a healing surge/second wind, and there are a few powers/items that grant regeneration. Much of it depends on what classes are present in your group, what level you are and what builds everyone has.

If the rest of your party is down and you yourself are all out of healing you just need to hope you survive the fight. Just like any other edition fo D&D.

Once the fight is over you can use any remaining healing surges you have for that day.

See page 91 of the PHB for info on healing surges and page 93 for healing in general.
#5
rake
Jun 17, 2009 11:22:19 Do NPC 'commoners' and such have healing surges? Are there rules for anything like that? Could you heal an injured one with a healing potion, or are they 'minions'? Would a potion just do nothing for him, or is this one of those 'there's no rule for this, the DM makes up what happens' scenarios? For that matter, is there no way to heal any minion? Do they just go from 'perfect health' to 'dead'?
#6
Stuntman
Jun 17, 2009 11:28:26
I guess my question is, if I have no powers that grant the use of a surge, no potions, and I have used my second wind, how do character's heal during combat?

In other words, what else can you do to gran yourself the use of a healing surge?

You pretty well summed up all of the ways you can use a healing surge in combat. Your question ends up being, "If I run out of ways in combat that allow me to use a healing surge, how can I then use a healing surge in combat?" The answer is you cannot because you ran out of ways in combat that allow you to use a healing surge.
#7
dark_lambo
Jun 17, 2009 11:30:33
Do NPC 'commoners' and such have healing surges?

No.

Beyond that, I dunno.
#8
Stuntman
Jun 17, 2009 11:32:31
Do NPC 'commoners' and such have healing surges? Are there rules for anything like that? Could you heal an injured one with a healing potion, or are they 'minions'? Would a potion just do nothing for him, or is this one of those 'there's no rule for this, the DM makes up what happens' scenarios? For that matter, is there no way to heal any minion? Do they just go from 'perfect health' to 'dead'?

I think NPC minions are just dead. The DM has some leeway to deal with the result of a minion taking a point of damage. Perhaps the NPC minion can say a few dying words before dying. Perhaps the NPC is just knocked out and can be healed. I do not recall seeing any general rule about minion healing surges.

I think that non-minions have a healing surge, but generally no second wind ability. If you want to use Healing Word on a non-minion creature, you can allow it to activate a healing surge. I cannot remember where I saw this and have lent my DMG to a friend. I do recall something about creatures having a healing surge. That way if you fight and retreat from battle and then come back, the creatures can heal a bit for the rematch.
#9
kieferz
Jun 17, 2009 11:35:04 NPCs and normal or higher monsters do have healing surges; they get one per tier (1 at Heroic, 2 at Paragon, 3 at Epic), but they don't have Second Wind (with a few exceptions). Minions don't have healing surges, as far as I know.
#10
xtian
Jun 17, 2009 11:36:50 Actually, I think most NPCs do have surges, assuming they aren't minions. A DM is going to have to decide whether or not any given noncombat NPC is a minion or a creature. I remember a podcast in which I think Mearls mentioned an NPC ally in his campaign who had something like 1-2 surges. The number of surges an NPC has should probably depend on how long they're going to fight with the PCs. However, I would assume that all PC healing should work at least once on noncombat NPCs.

Also, realize even that minions don't necessarily die when reduced to 0 HPs. This can be especially important with townsfolk and such. If an evil wizard drops a fireball on the town square, all the citizens may be minions, but some of them are going to be dead while others will be knocked out, or had their limbs torn off, or whatever. If a PC wants to go out and heal noncombat NPCs, I'd let them save at least a few.
#11
Rustmonster
Jun 17, 2009 11:38:38
Do NPC 'commoners' and such have healing surges? Are there rules for anything like that?

There are rules for how many healing surges NPCs get. 1 per tier.

As for if they would get a healing surge? As long as they are concidered Level 1, they get one. Then again, a commoner is likely a non-combatant, so I personally don't think they deserve a level or HP.

For that matter, is there no way to heal any minion? Do they just go from 'perfect health' to 'dead'?

They go from "perfect health" to "stabbed through the throat". It's exactly the same way a standard monster goes from "perfect health" to "dead", the only difference being that a standard monster has a nice cushioning of Plot Armour, ie HP.
#12
oxybe
Jun 17, 2009 11:41:49
Do NPC 'commoners' and such have healing surges? Are there rules for anything like that? Could you heal an injured one with a healing potion, or are they 'minions'? Would a potion just do nothing for him, or is this one of those 'there's no rule for this, the DM makes up what happens' scenarios? For that matter, is there no way to heal any minion? Do they just go from 'perfect health' to 'dead'?

an NPC is what you want it to be. if you want him to be a minion, he's a minion. if you want him statted out like a normal monster, an elite, a solo, whatever. they're NPCs. i tend to leave them unstatted so i can just wing what happens when it does unless i feel this particular NPC needs attention. at that point i decide if monster or PC creation rules are best suited for this.

note that a "minion" is a narrative construct put into gaming terms. a minion is mook, a flunkie, ect... the faceless schmoes that make the big evil machine work on a base level. minions represent a certain type of enemy that the PCs are now that much better then, but still represent a viable threat in masses.

an ogre minion isn't an ogre with just 1 HP. he's an ogre that the PCs are that much more powerful then, and he can be felled with but one blow. at a lower level, he would be represented by a standard ogre enemy.

do they go from "perfect" to "dead"? yes, but like all enemies, the PCs can elect to knock them out instead of killing them
#13
rake
Jun 17, 2009 11:46:55 So you could 'knock out' a minion, but pouring a potion down it's throat would do nothing for it?
#14
dark_lambo
Jun 17, 2009 11:52:53 Hrm, in light of the responses, I suppose I must having been putting too much emphasis on the commoner bit. :P
#15
Rustmonster
Jun 17, 2009 12:01:18
So you could 'knock out' a minion, but pouring a potion down it's throat would do nothing for it?

It honestly depends how the DM runs it.

A Minion has 1 HP. But as long as it has a level, it has at least 1 healing surge. Knocking a monster to 0 HP is not necessarily a "kill". It can be a KO, if you like.

Therefore, it is up to the DM to decide wether or not the Minion can be revived. Yes, he has a HS, but then again, he is far below negative bloodied (-1HP).
#16
poseidon88
Jun 17, 2009 13:09:06 In response to the original question: RAW allows one character to make a heal skill check to allow another character to use their Second Wind without taking an action. It's a DC 10 (pretty easy), but the character being healed can't have already used Second Wind during the encounter. I think it would be a decent house rule if the DM allowed a DC 20 check for a character that has already used Second Wind. That way it's much more difficult, but can still be done if you've run out of other options. Maybe throw in an extra penalty, like the character being healed doesn't get a standard action on their next turn.
#17
nsibystander
Jun 17, 2009 16:00:15
It honestly depends how the DM runs it.

A Minion has 1 HP. But as long as it has a level, it has at least 1 healing surge. Knocking a monster to 0 HP is not necessarily a "kill". It can be a KO, if you like.

Therefore, it is up to the DM to decide wether or not the Minion can be revived. Yes, he has a HS, but then again, he is far below negative bloodied (-1HP).

Hmm. Taking this a bit further, if Minions have 1 HP, and the bloodied value of a creature is half its total HP, then the bloodied value of a Minion is 0 (due to always rounding down). So at that point, if you reduce a minion to 0 by doing a single point of damage to them, you have also immediately reduced them to their negative bloodied value.

If the Minion wasn't killed outright at that point (perhaps by intentionally knocking it unconscious instead of killing it), then you could use something to have them spend a healing surge. But the healing surge value is a quarter of its total HP, which would again be 0. So even if you do have it spend a healing surge, it could never heal that one HP. It would require a power that heals a specified amount not based on surge value or an extended rest to heal a Minion.
#18
Istaran
Jun 17, 2009 17:19:11
In response to the original question: RAW allows one character to make a heal skill check to allow another character to use their Second Wind without taking an action. It's a DC 10 (pretty easy), but the character being healed can't have already used Second Wind during the encounter. I think it would be a decent house rule if the DM allowed a DC 20 check for a character that has already used Second Wind. That way it's much more difficult, but can still be done if you've run out of other options. Maybe throw in an extra penalty, like the character being healed doesn't get a standard action on their next turn.

There is a DC 15 heal check to stabilize a dying character. This is always a worse choice than the DC 10 to instigate a second wind, except that second wind is 1/enc. So the answer is when a PC is down and you have nothing left to provide surges, it's time for a DC 15 heal check to keep them from dying, and that PC is out for the rest of the fight.

This is where the difference between a party with sufficient leaders and a party with insufficient leaders is felt. The party with insufficient leaders may have plenty of healing surges unspent, but very quickly none of them are available. Potions are the easy bandaid for that problem; people will balk at paying money to use healing surges for less than their HS value, up until they start running out of healing powers in combat and see that spending a HS for half value via a potion is far better than having no access to that vitally needed HS.

Healers are no longer required for success in D&D, but they still make a huge difference.
#19
Istaran
Jun 17, 2009 17:20:45
Hmm. Taking this a bit further, if Minions have 1 HP, and the bloodied value of a creature is half its total HP, then the bloodied value of a Minion is 0 (due to always rounding down). So at that point, if you reduce a minion to 0 by doing a single point of damage to them, you have also immediately reduced them to their negative bloodied value.

If the Minion wasn't killed outright at that point (perhaps by intentionally knocking it unconscious instead of killing it), then you could use something to have them spend a healing surge. But the healing surge value is a quarter of its total HP, which would again be 0. So even if you do have it spend a healing surge, it could never heal that one HP. It would require a power that heals a specified amount not based on surge value or an extended rest to heal a Minion.

People have said throughout this thread that minions have no HS. According to the rules if the minion is below 0 HP and has no HS then a healing power that requires them to spend a HS heals them to exactly 1 HP. Which for a minion is awesome.
#20
OleOneEye
Jun 17, 2009 17:25:14
Do NPC 'commoners' and such have healing surges? Are there rules for anything like that? Could you heal an injured one with a healing potion, or are they 'minions'? Would a potion just do nothing for him, or is this one of those 'there's no rule for this, the DM makes up what happens' scenarios? For that matter, is there no way to heal any minion? Do they just go from 'perfect health' to 'dead'?

If a minion is hit in combat, his head is not necessarily cleanly cleaved from his shoulders. Most will be writhing about on the ground in agony holding their missing arm, grasping at the arrow in their chest, murmuring their last prayer, etc. Combat narration that has everyone silently die is kinda boring, IMO.

Minions don't have healing surges, so by the book they would not be able to take advantage of magical healing. However, if a PC is willing to use a Healing Word on Jimbo the spearman, then as a DM I would by all means allow it to heal him.

Outside of combat, I like to give NPCs all kinds of naggling injuries that do not heal up in one rest. If a peasant cuts his leg open with a plowshare, it could take weeks to heal - or he may even get gangreen and die. If a PC uses healing magic on the peasant, I allow it to work with a hand-wave.

In short, healing surges are primarily a construct for PC healing and do not work terribly well as a function for how NPCs heal.
#21
stogoe
Jun 17, 2009 20:20:50
I think it would be a decent house rule if the DM allowed a DC 20 check for a character that has already used Second Wind.

Yeah no. For one, a static DC like that is easily bypassed at mid-heroic, thus granting unlimited healing in-combat. Second, it's something that's better left to a power that allows you to spend a healing surge.
#22
darquing
Jun 18, 2009 7:01:43 I was under the impression you could use healing surges without using a power? Obviously if you're unconscious you can't use one. Another character can use the Heal skill (DC 10) to heal you equal to your heal surge value.
#23
pluisjen
Jun 18, 2009 7:21:22 You can only use them outside of combat, during a short rest.

In combat the only option you have in Second Wind or a healing power; you can't just activate some for extra HP. If it were like that you might as well just add them to your HP total; they wouldn't be adding much anymore.
#24
salla
Jun 18, 2009 12:22:59
I was under the impression you could use healing surges without using a power? Obviously if you're unconscious you can't use one. Another character can use the Heal skill (DC 10) to heal you equal to your heal surge value.

Not quite; another character can use the heal skill to activate another character's Second Wind, provided he hasn't already used it.
#25
funkyv
Jun 20, 2009 13:08:40
If you have used your second wind already in a given encounter and you are below zero hitpoints, any healing spell or healing skill check will bring you up to zero hitpoints plus one hit point. you will need to wait until after combat to use any remaining healing surges.

You actually go to 0 and then regain hit points based on the effect that healed you. If you don't have any surges left and the spell or whatever requires you to spend a surge...then you end up at 1 hp.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 exossare Jun 17, 2009 10:25:02	I see that we have healing surges, I see that many powers grant the use of them, potions use them, and I see that we also have a second wind ability. I guess my question is, if I have no powers that grant the use of a surge, no potions, and I have used my second wind, how do character's heal during combat? In other words, what else can you do to gran yourself the use of a healing surge? Thanks for the help, either in answer form, or book page reference!
#2 silent_stone Jun 17, 2009 10:31:20	If you've already used your second wind, and you have no potions, and you don't have any abilities that let you use a healing surge (nor do you have any allies with such abilities), then simply put you don't heal in combat. Outside of combat (during a short or extended rest), you can use healing surges to your heart's content.
#3 ctsshaw Jun 17, 2009 10:33:37	You can't - the only way to spend a healing sure without a power to do so is via your second wind (Once per encounter).
#4 Diceman65 Jun 17, 2009 11:06:47	hello, I am fairly new to 4e myself. I will answer your question as best as I can. In most cases(exceptions exist) the healing your PC recieves is dependant on you having healing surges available. In every combat encouner you have one "second wind" available to you. If you have used your second wind already in a given encounter and you are below zero hitpoints, any healing spell or healing skill check will bring you up to zero hitpoints plus one hit point. you will need to wait until after combat to use any remaining healing surges. Not all healing powers require the target to use a healing surge/second wind, and there are a few powers/items that grant regeneration. Much of it depends on what classes are present in your group, what level you are and what builds everyone has. If the rest of your party is down and you yourself are all out of healing you just need to hope you survive the fight. Just like any other edition fo D&D. Once the fight is over you can use any remaining healing surges you have for that day. See page 91 of the PHB for info on healing surges and page 93 for healing in general.
#5 rake Jun 17, 2009 11:22:19	Do NPC 'commoners' and such have healing surges? Are there rules for anything like that? Could you heal an injured one with a healing potion, or are they 'minions'? Would a potion just do nothing for him, or is this one of those 'there's no rule for this, the DM makes up what happens' scenarios? For that matter, is there no way to heal any minion? Do they just go from 'perfect health' to 'dead'?
#6 Stuntman Jun 17, 2009 11:28:26	I guess my question is, if I have no powers that grant the use of a surge, no potions, and I have used my second wind, how do character's heal during combat? In other words, what else can you do to gran yourself the use of a healing surge? You pretty well summed up all of the ways you can use a healing surge in combat. Your question ends up being, "If I run out of ways in combat that allow me to use a healing surge, how can I then use a healing surge in combat?" The answer is you cannot because you ran out of ways in combat that allow you to use a healing surge.
#7 dark_lambo Jun 17, 2009 11:30:33	Do NPC 'commoners' and such have healing surges? No. Beyond that, I dunno.
#8 Stuntman Jun 17, 2009 11:32:31	Do NPC 'commoners' and such have healing surges? Are there rules for anything like that? Could you heal an injured one with a healing potion, or are they 'minions'? Would a potion just do nothing for him, or is this one of those 'there's no rule for this, the DM makes up what happens' scenarios? For that matter, is there no way to heal any minion? Do they just go from 'perfect health' to 'dead'? I think NPC minions are just dead. The DM has some leeway to deal with the result of a minion taking a point of damage. Perhaps the NPC minion can say a few dying words before dying. Perhaps the NPC is just knocked out and can be healed. I do not recall seeing any general rule about minion healing surges. I think that non-minions have a healing surge, but generally no second wind ability. If you want to use Healing Word on a non-minion creature, you can allow it to activate a healing surge. I cannot remember where I saw this and have lent my DMG to a friend. I do recall something about creatures having a healing surge. That way if you fight and retreat from battle and then come back, the creatures can heal a bit for the rematch.
#9 kieferz Jun 17, 2009 11:35:04	NPCs and normal or higher monsters do have healing surges; they get one per tier (1 at Heroic, 2 at Paragon, 3 at Epic), but they don't have Second Wind (with a few exceptions). Minions don't have healing surges, as far as I know.
#10 xtian Jun 17, 2009 11:36:50	Actually, I think most NPCs do have surges, assuming they aren't minions. A DM is going to have to decide whether or not any given noncombat NPC is a minion or a creature. I remember a podcast in which I think Mearls mentioned an NPC ally in his campaign who had something like 1-2 surges. The number of surges an NPC has should probably depend on how long they're going to fight with the PCs. However, I would assume that all PC healing should work at least once on noncombat NPCs. Also, realize even that minions don't necessarily die when reduced to 0 HPs. This can be especially important with townsfolk and such. If an evil wizard drops a fireball on the town square, all the citizens may be minions, but some of them are going to be dead while others will be knocked out, or had their limbs torn off, or whatever. If a PC wants to go out and heal noncombat NPCs, I'd let them save at least a few.
#11 Rustmonster Jun 17, 2009 11:38:38	Do NPC 'commoners' and such have healing surges? Are there rules for anything like that? There are rules for how many healing surges NPCs get. 1 per tier. As for if they would get a healing surge? As long as they are concidered Level 1, they get one. Then again, a commoner is likely a non-combatant, so I personally don't think they deserve a level or HP. For that matter, is there no way to heal any minion? Do they just go from 'perfect health' to 'dead'? They go from "perfect health" to "stabbed through the throat". It's exactly the same way a standard monster goes from "perfect health" to "dead", the only difference being that a standard monster has a nice cushioning of Plot Armour, ie HP.
#12 oxybe Jun 17, 2009 11:41:49	Do NPC 'commoners' and such have healing surges? Are there rules for anything like that? Could you heal an injured one with a healing potion, or are they 'minions'? Would a potion just do nothing for him, or is this one of those 'there's no rule for this, the DM makes up what happens' scenarios? For that matter, is there no way to heal any minion? Do they just go from 'perfect health' to 'dead'? an NPC is what you want it to be. if you want him to be a minion, he's a minion. if you want him statted out like a normal monster, an elite, a solo, whatever. they're NPCs. i tend to leave them unstatted so i can just wing what happens when it does unless i feel this particular NPC needs attention. at that point i decide if monster or PC creation rules are best suited for this. note that a "minion" is a narrative construct put into gaming terms. a minion is mook, a flunkie, ect... the faceless schmoes that make the big evil machine work on a base level. minions represent a certain type of enemy that the PCs are now that much better then, but still represent a viable threat in masses. an ogre minion isn't an ogre with just 1 HP. he's an ogre that the PCs are that much more powerful then, and he can be felled with but one blow. at a lower level, he would be represented by a standard ogre enemy. do they go from "perfect" to "dead"? yes, but like all enemies, the PCs can elect to knock them out instead of killing them
#13 rake Jun 17, 2009 11:46:55	So you could 'knock out' a minion, but pouring a potion down it's throat would do nothing for it?
#14 dark_lambo Jun 17, 2009 11:52:53	Hrm, in light of the responses, I suppose I must having been putting too much emphasis on the commoner bit. :P
#15 Rustmonster Jun 17, 2009 12:01:18	So you could 'knock out' a minion, but pouring a potion down it's throat would do nothing for it? It honestly depends how the DM runs it. A Minion has 1 HP. But as long as it has a level, it has at least 1 healing surge. Knocking a monster to 0 HP is not necessarily a "kill". It can be a KO, if you like. Therefore, it is up to the DM to decide wether or not the Minion can be revived. Yes, he has a HS, but then again, he is far below negative bloodied (-1HP).
#16 poseidon88 Jun 17, 2009 13:09:06	In response to the original question: RAW allows one character to make a heal skill check to allow another character to use their Second Wind without taking an action. It's a DC 10 (pretty easy), but the character being healed can't have already used Second Wind during the encounter. I think it would be a decent house rule if the DM allowed a DC 20 check for a character that has already used Second Wind. That way it's much more difficult, but can still be done if you've run out of other options. Maybe throw in an extra penalty, like the character being healed doesn't get a standard action on their next turn.
#17 nsibystander Jun 17, 2009 16:00:15	It honestly depends how the DM runs it. A Minion has 1 HP. But as long as it has a level, it has at least 1 healing surge. Knocking a monster to 0 HP is not necessarily a "kill". It can be a KO, if you like. Therefore, it is up to the DM to decide wether or not the Minion can be revived. Yes, he has a HS, but then again, he is far below negative bloodied (-1HP). Hmm. Taking this a bit further, if Minions have 1 HP, and the bloodied value of a creature is half its total HP, then the bloodied value of a Minion is 0 (due to always rounding down). So at that point, if you reduce a minion to 0 by doing a single point of damage to them, you have also immediately reduced them to their negative bloodied value. If the Minion wasn't killed outright at that point (perhaps by intentionally knocking it unconscious instead of killing it), then you could use something to have them spend a healing surge. But the healing surge value is a quarter of its total HP, which would again be 0. So even if you do have it spend a healing surge, it could never heal that one HP. It would require a power that heals a specified amount not based on surge value or an extended rest to heal a Minion.
#18 Istaran Jun 17, 2009 17:19:11	In response to the original question: RAW allows one character to make a heal skill check to allow another character to use their Second Wind without taking an action. It's a DC 10 (pretty easy), but the character being healed can't have already used Second Wind during the encounter. I think it would be a decent house rule if the DM allowed a DC 20 check for a character that has already used Second Wind. That way it's much more difficult, but can still be done if you've run out of other options. Maybe throw in an extra penalty, like the character being healed doesn't get a standard action on their next turn. There is a DC 15 heal check to stabilize a dying character. This is always a worse choice than the DC 10 to instigate a second wind, except that second wind is 1/enc. So the answer is when a PC is down and you have nothing left to provide surges, it's time for a DC 15 heal check to keep them from dying, and that PC is out for the rest of the fight. This is where the difference between a party with sufficient leaders and a party with insufficient leaders is felt. The party with insufficient leaders may have plenty of healing surges unspent, but very quickly none of them are available. Potions are the easy bandaid for that problem; people will balk at paying money to use healing surges for less than their HS value, up until they start running out of healing powers in combat and see that spending a HS for half value via a potion is far better than having no access to that vitally needed HS. Healers are no longer required for success in D&D, but they still make a huge difference.
#19 Istaran Jun 17, 2009 17:20:45	Hmm. Taking this a bit further, if Minions have 1 HP, and the bloodied value of a creature is half its total HP, then the bloodied value of a Minion is 0 (due to always rounding down). So at that point, if you reduce a minion to 0 by doing a single point of damage to them, you have also immediately reduced them to their negative bloodied value. If the Minion wasn't killed outright at that point (perhaps by intentionally knocking it unconscious instead of killing it), then you could use something to have them spend a healing surge. But the healing surge value is a quarter of its total HP, which would again be 0. So even if you do have it spend a healing surge, it could never heal that one HP. It would require a power that heals a specified amount not based on surge value or an extended rest to heal a Minion. People have said throughout this thread that minions have no HS. According to the rules if the minion is below 0 HP and has no HS then a healing power that requires them to spend a HS heals them to exactly 1 HP. Which for a minion is awesome.
#20 OleOneEye Jun 17, 2009 17:25:14	Do NPC 'commoners' and such have healing surges? Are there rules for anything like that? Could you heal an injured one with a healing potion, or are they 'minions'? Would a potion just do nothing for him, or is this one of those 'there's no rule for this, the DM makes up what happens' scenarios? For that matter, is there no way to heal any minion? Do they just go from 'perfect health' to 'dead'? If a minion is hit in combat, his head is not necessarily cleanly cleaved from his shoulders. Most will be writhing about on the ground in agony holding their missing arm, grasping at the arrow in their chest, murmuring their last prayer, etc. Combat narration that has everyone silently die is kinda boring, IMO. Minions don't have healing surges, so by the book they would not be able to take advantage of magical healing. However, if a PC is willing to use a Healing Word on Jimbo the spearman, then as a DM I would by all means allow it to heal him. Outside of combat, I like to give NPCs all kinds of naggling injuries that do not heal up in one rest. If a peasant cuts his leg open with a plowshare, it could take weeks to heal - or he may even get gangreen and die. If a PC uses healing magic on the peasant, I allow it to work with a hand-wave. In short, healing surges are primarily a construct for PC healing and do not work terribly well as a function for how NPCs heal.
#21 stogoe Jun 17, 2009 20:20:50	I think it would be a decent house rule if the DM allowed a DC 20 check for a character that has already used Second Wind. Yeah no. For one, a static DC like that is easily bypassed at mid-heroic, thus granting unlimited healing in-combat. Second, it's something that's better left to a power that allows you to spend a healing surge.
#22 darquing Jun 18, 2009 7:01:43	I was under the impression you could use healing surges without using a power? Obviously if you're unconscious you can't use one. Another character can use the Heal skill (DC 10) to heal you equal to your heal surge value.
#23 pluisjen Jun 18, 2009 7:21:22	You can only use them outside of combat, during a short rest. In combat the only option you have in Second Wind or a healing power; you can't just activate some for extra HP. If it were like that you might as well just add them to your HP total; they wouldn't be adding much anymore.
#24 salla Jun 18, 2009 12:22:59	I was under the impression you could use healing surges without using a power? Obviously if you're unconscious you can't use one. Another character can use the Heal skill (DC 10) to heal you equal to your heal surge value. Not quite; another character can use the heal skill to activate another character's Second Wind, provided he hasn't already used it.
#25 funkyv Jun 20, 2009 13:08:40	If you have used your second wind already in a given encounter and you are below zero hitpoints, any healing spell or healing skill check will bring you up to zero hitpoints plus one hit point. you will need to wait until after combat to use any remaining healing surges. You actually go to 0 and then regain hit points based on the effect that healed you. If you don't have any surges left and the spell or whatever requires you to spend a surge...then you end up at 1 hp.