Actually, I'm the one who proposed the title for the new Player's Board (and the DM's Board).
Would it be possible for you to explain your reasoning? I for one preferred the 'What's a DM/Player to Do?' title greatly, and can't see reason to change.
From a marketing standpoint, rhetorical questions are bad. And not bad in a "Hmm... that could have been better" but bad in a "This sets the wrong tone."
Rhetorical questions are used in one of two places. First, to convey a sense of hopelessness as in "That sucks, but what are you gonna do?" Second, to convey the idea that the speaker doesn't know what he's talking about: "Why ask me?" Neither of these are good bases for naming a forum. I know we're all used to it now so it seems natural, but imo, it was a really bad idea and set the wrong tone for what these forums were supposed to be about: a community of people with experience and wisdom who can help one another with the issues that arise at the game table.
I've despised the rhetorical question since I first logged onto these forums. I find them off-putting rather than inviting. I find it to be an forced, insincere attempt at being chummy.
Now, primarily I didn't want the DM boards, of which I am forum lead, to have a rhetorical question as its title. But you can't have the player's board use a rhetorical question and not the DM's board. The two boards should be similarly marketed.
For the DM's board, I game up with Dungeon Master Guidance. It's a play on the Dungeon Master's Guide and conveys precisely what the board is for: a community where DMs could get guidance on running their games.
I tried to come up with a name for the player's board that mirrored that idea. I tried to come up with a name that was simlar to "Player's Handbook" and conveyed the idea of a community where players could come for advice on how to play their characters.
Sadly, the only phrase I could come up with beginning "Player's Hand---" would be utterly inappropriate.
So I came up with something more direct: Player Advice. In the various threads before the reorganization, where the board names were discussed, I asked people to come up with a better suggestion. Nobody proposed anything better.
The Players' board is unlikely to go back to "What's a Player to Do?" However, if there's a title for the board that is not a rhetorical question and the community likes better than "Player Advice" I'd be happy to go to bat for you guys in asking Community Management to rename the forum.
Seems like well thought out reasoning to support a personal pet peeve of yours. Guess I shouldn't complain as I missed all the discussion threads on the topic... I still don't see them, are they not in "Player Advice"? Could you link, I'm curious what people's feedback was and I generally only read this section and the 4.0 section.
All the discussions of the Forum Reorganization was in the [forum=46]Community Business[/forum] boards.
. . .
. . .
hmmmmm. . . I guess we could call it "Player's Tavern - Tips, Tricks, and Guidance," but they already called the off-topic area the Tavern.
Maybe they should call the off-topic area The Gazebo instead. . .
Then let me propose to change it back. Any seconds?
I also preferred keeping the old name. In the end, Community Management decided (for whatever reason) that they liked wrecan's suggestion better than my "keep it the same' suggestion.
I would personally have called the DM forum "Behind the Screen - DM Advice and Guidance" and the Player forum "Player's Hand-. . ."
I had proposed a name with "screen" but someone properly pointed out that people might get confused with the "computer screen" of the DDI.
From a marketing standpoint, rhetorical questions are bad.
It wasn't a rhetorical question. It was, in fact, a legitimate question with legitimate answers. People came here to find out what a player is to do.
Looking in the Forum Lead thread...
Mercurius suggested "Players' Helper Board" as a name, utilizing the PHB acronym.
And that was the only suggestion.
Now's the time -- toss out your ideas! Do you like the new name? Say so! Do you like Mercurius's suggestion? Say so! Want the old name back? Say so (though I doubt we'll get it)! Have a spiffy new idea? Throw it out there for everybody to consider!
I'm certainly willing to ask as well. (though the cynic in me wants to point out that CM seems to disregard everything I suggest and ask recently).
Maybe I'll request the new name and then you write a post saying how that name would be horrible and everybody would hate it. That would almost guarantee they choose that name. ;)
I don't mind the Dungeon Master's Guidance title. It makes sense and let's you know what you will see. The Player Advice does so as well, but it sounds awkward. So I propose it be renamed:
The Player's Perspective
I think that sounds a lot better. It's not as clear cut, obviously, but it should give enough of a clue as to what's going on there. Since it will be paired with the DM thread it should be pretty easy to figure out. Whaddaya'all think?
* remembers GZ might read this *
Er, I mean... I hate it! Loath it with every fiber of my being! It suxxors my boxxors!
I wish they'd change it to "Players' Helping Hand" or "Players' Handout" or something. I mean the DM one is "DM Guidance" to play off of the DMG title... Player one should do something similar.
Player's Libram of Wisdom
Gainful Book of Players Knowledge (or a players Ganful book of...)
Actually, I'm the one who proposed the title for the new Player's Board (and the DM's Board).
I'm sorry, but I don't think I can agree with your uh, decision. @_@
I also find the decision to remove the RPG Classifieds link strange. It was little known enough as it was... and undoubtedly this will only cause yet more people to post in this forum asking to find groups.
I like that one, ZB!
* remembers GZ might read this *
Er, I mean... I hate it! Loath it with every fiber of my being! It suxxors my boxxors!
Thanks! Er ... uhh ... I mean ... why the hate, man? I'm just trying to be helpful! ;)
Well, got some reason, "Dungeon Master Guidance" is now "Dungeon Master Advice". Odd.
I guess Mike doesn't like you any more...
It wasn't a rhetorical question. It was, in fact, a legitimate question with legitimate answers. People came here to find out what a player is to do.
+1
"Player Advice" has the problem that it's not clear if it's advice for players or from players, or both.
I prefer the old name, but I think that Zombie_babies' suggestion "The Player's Perspective" is the best so far.
Though "Player's Hand***" might work...
My question is What difference does it make? If you call it Players Advice, or Whats a player to do?, its still the same section.
OK first I have not been around in a few months so I just noticed that the names were changed.
My question is What difference does it make? If you call it Players Advice, or Whats a player to do?, its still the same section.
But in the end, I've got to say UAMDB is right. It's not all that vital a difference, and we've got to learn to adapt to change. While I'm still not used to the difference, I'm not going to demand we put it back to normal.
Here is my reasoning:
From a marketing standpoint, rhetorical questions are bad. And not bad in a "Hmm... that could have been better" but bad in a "This sets the wrong tone."
Rhetorical questions are used in one of two places. First, to convey a sense of hopelessness as in "That sucks, but what are you gonna do?" Second, to convey the idea that the speaker doesn't know what he's talking about: "Why ask me?" Neither of these are good bases for naming a forum. I know we're all used to it now so it seems natural, but imo, it was a really bad idea and set the wrong tone for what these forums were supposed to be about: a community of people with experience and wisdom who can help one another with the issues that arise at the game table.
I've despised the rhetorical question since I first logged onto these forums. I find them off-putting rather than inviting. I find it to be an forced, insincere attempt at being chummy.
Now, primarily I didn't want the DM boards, of which I am forum lead, to have a rhetorical question as its title. But you can't have the player's board use a rhetorical question and not the DM's board. The two boards should be similarly marketed.
For the DM's board, I game up with Dungeon Master Guidance. It's a play on the Dungeon Master's Guide and conveys precisely what the board is for: a community where DMs could get guidance on running their games.
I tried to come up with a name for the player's board that mirrored that idea. I tried to come up with a name that was simlar to "Player's Handbook" and conveyed the idea of a community where players could come for advice on how to play their characters.
Sadly, the only phrase I could come up with beginning "Player's Hand---" would be utterly inappropriate.
So I came up with something more direct: Player Advice. In the various threads before the reorganization, where the board names were discussed, I asked people to come up with a better suggestion. Nobody proposed anything better.
The Players' board is unlikely to go back to "What's a Player to Do?" However, if there's a title for the board that is not a rhetorical question and the community likes better than "Player Advice" I'd be happy to go to bat for you guys in asking Community Management to rename the forum.
You over thought the name. One of the more successful ad campaigns in the past decade is summed up in two words. Got Milk? It's a rhetorical question that has sold a lot of milk and has inspired numerous parodies. Every time a company parodies it people think of what that company is parodying. That equals free advertising. From a marketing perspective it has been an unmitigated success.
"What's a DM to do?" works because DMs have hard jobs and they need advice. Someone looking though that board who needs help sees that and what goes though their head is "That's what I want to know!" and they click on it. Same thing for "What's a Player to do?" It's visceral, sporty, and casual.
"Dear Abby" is about what Abby has to say about a persons problem. It's not about the person and their problems, it's about the advice that Abby is giving. On a visceral level "Dungeon Master Guidance" tells me there's people here who are going to tell me what to do. Same thing with "Player Advice". They shift the focus from the people with problems to the people who would tell the person what to do. That is the wrong message to be sending.
Now if you want to maintain that rhetorical questions make for bad marketing then you should now kindly articulate to the rest of us how the Got Milk? advertising campaign has been an abject failure.
You over thought the name. One of the more successful ad campaigns in the past decade is summed up in two words. Got Milk?
If people wanted "Got DM?" I'd be more amenable to it. "Got Milk?" -- a yes-or-no question -- is pithier than the open-ended question "What's a DM to Do?"l. In short, the reason is that the question "Got Milk?" implies its own preferred answer ("Yes"), while the only implicit answer to "What's a DM to Do?" is "I don't know."
Now if you want to maintain that rhetorical questions make for bad marketing then you should now kindly articulate to the rest of us how the Got Milk? advertising campaign has been an abject failure.
Done.
Of course, the time to be discussing these things was a month ago when the discussion was going on and nothing had been decided, not now, when it's too late.
"What's a DM to do?" This is every DM's question boiled down to absolute simplicity. I don't know. But if I go to this forum I will probably get an answer.
Done.
Not done. You would need to articulate how the Got Milk Campaign was an abject failure. This is a different issue then the one you addressed.
Of course, the time to be discussing these things was a month ago when the discussion was going on and nothing had been decided, not now, when it's too late.
Aren't you now complaining that Dungeon Master Guidance has been changed to Dungeon Master Advice? Obviously the powers that be don't think it's too late.
Got Milk? is much more of an open ended question then you let on.
I disagree. Got Milk is a yes-or-now question. Do you "got milk" or not? Its' simple and direct.
Not done. You would need to articulate how the Got Milk Campaign was an abject failure.
I don't think Got Milk? was an abject failure. Got Milk? is an exception to the rule for the reasons I stated.
Aren't you now complaining that Dungeon Master Guidance has been changed to Dungeon Master Advice?
No, I am not "complaining".
Obviously the powers that be don't think it's too late.
They didn't change it back to "What's a DM to Do?" did they?
They didn't change it back to "What's a DM to Do?" did they?
It's not like they can't. (And, in fact, that's what it shows up as from here.)
However i also agree that the current title is concise, to the point but bland.
Anyway i wasn't around when did a discussion (or at least i think there was one) on this so i can live with it
I leave for a week-long vacation on Sunday, so I would like to have the whole conversation wrapped up no later than Saturday so I can make a recommendation to Community Management before I leave.
Let's work on the assumption that What's a Player to Do? will not be re-instated as the forum name, and that we need to come up with something new.
Let's also remember that all we can do, collectively, is make a request for a name change; we can't demand one.
So let's keep those things in mind and discuss the name of the players' advice forum here. I'm certain that if we stay focused, we can figure out something.
Thanks!
I don't think Got Milk? was an abject failure. Got Milk? is an exception to the rule for the reasons I stated.
You did not state that it was an eception to the rule. You were arguing that it was apples and oranges.
No, I am not "complaining".
You are changing the subject. The plain fact of the matter is that it can be changed. Nothing is set in stone.
They didn't change it back to "What's a DM to Do?" did they?
Your point?
I conceed that the Got Milk/Rhetorical argument is not the matter at hand.
Is there any rational for Community Management to not change the names back other then the fact that they've changed them and so need to stick firm on changing the name regardless of what they change the name too?
Is there any rational for Community Management to not change the names back ... ?
None that I know of. I fully admit I'm just making an assumption based on past actions I've seen from the CM team. It's just my opinion that we'd have an easier time to convince them to change to "new name X" rather than convincing them to change it back to what it was.
However, if the overall opinion leans very heavily towards changing it back, I'll certainly make that suggestion. My plan is to offer up more than one suggestion to Community Management, listing them in order of preference. That gives them choices, but also allows them to know what the community (overall) prefers.
My plan is to offer up more than one suggestion to Community Management, listing them in order of preference. That gives them choices, but also allows them to know what the community (overall) prefers.
Righto.
The Player's Perspective is better then "Player Advice" and I can accept that as a replacement for "What's a Player to do?". I really can't think of anything better for "What's a DM to do?" then What's a DM to do?. None of the suggestion thus far have jumped out at me.
What about The DM's Perspective? To keep it like The Player's Perspective?
I'll second this. And not just because The Player's Perspective was my suggestion ... honest!
Seriously, I do like it.
I also like the "Player's Perspective" option, though "What's a Player to do?" and "What's a DM to do?" are my favorite. If we're going to do "Player's Perspective", though, how about "DM's Direction" or some such? Just a thought.
I don't approve of the change and haven't seen any suggestions better than the old name.
I say put them back.
..but now that I know where they are and what they I don't really care what they're called. Still nice to give a good first impression don't you think?
Dungeon Master Advice ----> Us
Player Advice ----> Them
*****
What about The DM's Perspective? To keep it like The Player's Perspective?
I'll put myself down for The DM's Perspective in the absence of returning to the old names.
Me, I like wordplay. I'd prefer names that played of the titles of the core books like:
Dungeon Masters Guidance
Players Help Board
Monsterous Maintenance (not sure about this one)
They originally had Dungeon Master Guidance and changed it. I don't know if it was because they wanted the name to match the Player board, or if there was some other reason. They haven't said.
They should've changed the players forum name to match the DM's, not the other way around. The current names are dull as dishwater. And not just any dishwater, this is special extra-dull dishwater from washing extremely dull dishes using Dullkleen© dish detergent with new and improved with Dull-u-Max⁚ for extra dulling action.
Here is my reasoning:
From a marketing standpoint, rhetorical questions are bad. And not bad in a "Hmm... that could have been better" but bad in a "This sets the wrong tone."
Rhetorical questions are used in one of two places. First, to convey a sense of hopelessness as in "That sucks, but what are you gonna do?" Second, to convey the idea that the speaker doesn't know what he's talking about: "Why ask me?" Neither of these are good bases for naming a forum. I know we're all used to it now so it seems natural, but imo, it was a really bad idea and set the wrong tone for what these forums were supposed to be about: a community of people with experience and wisdom who can help one another with the issues that arise at the game table.
I've despised the rhetorical question since I first logged onto these forums. I find them off-putting rather than inviting. I find it to be an forced, insincere attempt at being chummy.
Now, primarily I didn't want the DM boards, of which I am forum lead, to have a rhetorical question as its title. But you can't have the player's board use a rhetorical question and not the DM's board. The two boards should be similarly marketed.
For the DM's board, I game up with Dungeon Master Guidance. It's a play on the Dungeon Master's Guide and conveys precisely what the board is for: a community where DMs could get guidance on running their games.
I tried to come up with a name for the player's board that mirrored that idea. I tried to come up with a name that was simlar to "Player's Handbook" and conveyed the idea of a community where players could come for advice on how to play their characters.
Sadly, the only phrase I could come up with beginning "Player's Hand---" would be utterly inappropriate.
So I came up with something more direct: Player Advice. In the various threads before the reorganization, where the board names were discussed, I asked people to come up with a better suggestion. Nobody proposed anything better.
The Players' board is unlikely to go back to "What's a Player to Do?" However, if there's a title for the board that is not a rhetorical question and the community likes better than "Player Advice" I'd be happy to go to bat for you guys in asking Community Management to rename the forum.
The old name gave me the feel that the people on that board were actual people, and not just some hired guys working to give advice to others.
The new one kinda gives me a really cold feeling, like people don't want to be chummy with you.
We're trying to move forward.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeIdpqJiSNo
Here is my reasoning:
Okay...
From a marketing standpoint, rhetorical questions are bad.
That's odd. And here I thought some of the most successful advertising slogans ever were rhetorical questions. From phrases like "Got Milk?" to "Have you had your break today?"
Rhetorical questions are used in one of two places. First, to convey a sense of hopelessness as in "That sucks, but what are you gonna do?" Second, to convey the idea that the speaker doesn't know what he's talking about: "Why ask me?" Neither of these are good bases for naming a forum.
Huh, that's not what they taught me when I studied writing. Or public speech. Or mass media. Maybe all my college professors were just wrong about that. I can think of several other common uses for rhetorical questions off the top of my head, and I don't think your two-sided coin even describes their primary uses. Where, exactly, did you pull that conclusion from?
It sounds like you just have a personal bias against rhetorical questions, rather than any basis in marketing knowledge or language studies.
How about replacing the G with something other than guidance?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeIdpqJiSNo
Please don't turn this into a 4chan-style debate. This thead has been generally civil.
That's odd. And here I thought some of the most successful advertising slogans ever were rhetorical questions. From phrases like "Got Milk?" to "Have you had your break today?"
I address this later in this very thread. [post=15914260]Here[/post] and [post=15914739]here[/post]. There's really no need to be smarmy and we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I'll put my business education against almost anybody else's any day of the week. But, as the New Yorker put it, on the internet nobody knows you're a dog. So let's not make oblique references to our unprovable real-world credentials.
In the end, the question is moot. CM agreed that the forum names should be changed. If you don't like "Player Advice" the productive measure is to come up with an alternative they might like, not try to revisit a decision that is unlikey to be reversed.
And that's what I mean by trying to move forward.
It sounds like you just have a personal bias against rhetorical questions, rather than any basis in marketing knowledge or language studies.
In what way is this elevating the tenor of the thread?
What we can do is work together for the next week or so and develop a new set of names and a plan for proposing them to CM.
Come on, fellas. Let's stay on topic, please, and work together to determine if the pair of forums should be renamed, and if so to what. We can't undo the fact that two people - me and wrecan - offered names during the reorganization discussion. Nor can we undo the fact that Community Management liked wrecan's suggestions better than mine.
What we can do is work together for the next week or so and develop a new set of names and a plan for proposing them to CM.
How about:
Player's Assistance
DM's Asssistance
Since we aren't really just advising them: we are assisting them in their endevours. (however you spell that word).
As an aside: I liked that linked to One Step Forward. I don't get the 4chan reference...
4chan is…notoripus for its
That is, by a wide margin, the most apt typo in the history or words.
Man, I wish my intentional typing was as clever as my typos!
We all wish your intentional typing was as clever as your typos. ;)
Show
Joke!
Dungeon Master's Ghetto
Player's Haven
Or maybe. . . Gazebo. Dungeon Master's Gazebo. Which doesn't take damage even from +3 arrows.
Players Commonroom of Hospitality
DMs are the badguys and badguys hang out in Dens of Ill Repute?
And players need a place to rest up and hang together. Sounds like a commonroom to me!
Dungeon Masters Den of Ill Repute
Players Commonroom of Hospitality
DMs are the badguys and badguys hang out in Dens of Ill Repute?
And players need a place to rest up and hang together. Sounds like a commonroom to me!
I Concur with the players name!
Although DM's are usually bad guys, they can be neutral, or even good guys sometimes. Maybe something that deals with their omnipotentness in the DnD world?
Dungeon Masters Den of Intrigue
Dungeon Masters Cantina of Intrigue
Players Commonroom of Hospitality
Alternatively they could be shortened to
Dungeon Masters Den
Dungeon Masters Cantina
Players Commonroom
But I think the "of *" versions makes them ultimately more personable and fun.
Essentially they would have more character. Of these new suggestions I prefer Dungeon Masters Den of Ill Repute and Players Commonroom of Hospitality.
If we're going to do "Player's Perspective", though, how about "DM's Direction" or some such? Just a thought.
Alliterations are a big "YES!" in my book.
-Count Dravda
Zombie Babies wins. "The Players Perspective" and "The DM's Perspective" win my vote.
-Count Dravda
Why thank you. Coming from someone as obviously wise and intelligent as your esteemed self, this is quite the compliment. :D To be fair, I must remind everyone that it was regrettably not I who penned the proposed name for the DM board. That honor lies with Ariakus.
What a DM's to do.
What a Player's to do.
What a DM suggests.
What a Player wants.
You guys might have to rename the sticky threads.
You're correct, but...
After 30 days, only a moderator can edit a thread title. My options are: A) Bribe a mod; or B) repost it in a new thread.
I don't think that "blandness" of the forum title is really a big issue. The titles as they are now are intuitive, which is what really matters. Do I, as a player or DM, need advice? Do I have advice to give? The forum titles as they are now tell me pretty clearly where I should go.
That's right- do you have advice or need advice only. There is no room for spinning a yarn about a game experience on either side (DM or Player). If it is not advice, where should one go?
One of the things I liked about "What's a Player/DM to Do" was that it was more welcoming to non-advice threads.
I'd also like to reiterate my point that the discussion should be in what is currently the "Player Advice" forum not in CM. The average board member probably doesn't have time to monitor every section for changes to things they may care about (I'm assuming I'm average in that 70% of my time is spent here, 28% in 4E section, and 2% in the DM section seeing how the other half lives).
And honestly stickies are ignored for the most part as they rarely change. If there weren't more suggestions originally perhaps those are some of the reasons.
Anyway, I hope we're not doing the same thing to the DMs (looks like something has already precipitated a name change over there) and forcing a change (not that DMA is worth keeping) just to match player advice. (I'm wondering why this is in fact that so many people feel they need to be similar?)
So officially my "vote" is:
A) Change Player Advice back to What's a Player to Do
B) If that's not possible go with Player's Perspective
and let the DM community decide what they want, irrespective of what we want.
That's right- do you have advice or need advice only. There is no room for spinning a yarn about a game experience on either side (DM or Player). If it is not advice, where should one go?
One of the things I liked about "What's a Player/DM to Do" was that it was more welcoming to non-advice threads.
I'd also like to reiterate my point that the discussion should be in what is currently the "Player Advice" forum not in CM. The average board member probably doesn't have time to monitor every section for changes to things they may care about (I'm assuming I'm average in that 70% of my time is spent here, 28% in 4E section, and 2% in the DM section seeing how the other half lives).
And honestly stickies are ignored for the most part as they rarely change. If there weren't more suggestions originally perhaps those are some of the reasons.
Anyway, I hope we're not doing the same thing to the DMs (looks like something has already precipitated a name change over there) and forcing a change (not that DMA is worth keeping) just to match player advice. (I'm wondering why this is in fact that so many people feel they need to be similar?)
So officially my "vote" is:
A) Change Player Advice back to What's a Player to Do
B) If that's not possible go with Player's Perspective
and let the DM community decide what they want, irrespective of what we want.
I agree. The names are so bland now. When the names were, Whats a DM/Player to do, it caught my attention. I have no idea as to why. Now it just seems boring, and boring marketing is bad marketing. Things seemed to be just fine as they were. Maybe just trying to sever another connection to the old 3.5 boards.
Thanks to everybody who chimed in with their thoughts.
edit: ninja'ed!