I was going to change my game to a Darksun game, but one of my players asked if I could let them run it. When I informed them that I would be stoked to play in a 4e game in general, but doubley so to play DS, he was happy. He also told me he had a bunch of 2e books, and was a major followr of athas.org in 3e. So he knew alot more then I about the setting. He also rea dhte novels way back when.
So I was expecting him to know way more then I do...
then we started. First of all he bearly knows the rules. He game 1 didn't know what we ment when we said Death save... even though he played through 27 levels in one of my games... he said he never paid attention to other peoples turns. Then he killed the first party member, and then things went down hill...
Ok, so we are 9 game in, 5 PCs are dead, 2 by 1 player...
The DM has introed new 10,000+ year old NPCs that date back to pre clensing war, and we have books about before the cleansing war (at level 3)... and we just found out those NPCs are from forgotten realms... and this is a post spell plauge FR setting (becuse he says way back when it was a theory on the origin of Dark Sun).
I'm just not having any fun. There are multi dragons, we travel places with a hand wave, we always have plenty of food and water. It doesn't feel like darksun...
then he makes weird house rules... (like you can sleep non prone, fully equiped, with weapons ready) becuse when we got attacked in camp, I was laughed at for saying "Move action stand, minor action draw weapon, then standard action... later he covered by saying "No waking up, and standing and getting into your armor and weapons are a free action" then he has skill challanges that I am told what skills I can roll, but nothing happend till we hit our success or fail... so no one knows what we are doing, then he just tells us what we did... he also dislikes rituels...and seekers... or brutal weapons...
then he (the Dm) gets mad about our powers. Our warden has 3 guys marked, one of them attacks our druid, so the warden gets an attack...then the DM throws a fit "Why do you get an attack?!?" we even have magnits on our minis showing things like marks... Our battle mind's blurred step got to him too.
when we asked him once about all this he told us he didn't want to spend more then 5-10 mins between games working on his game. I gave him a copy of master plan, but he dosn't want to learn to use anew program...
long and short of it is I am having no fun. I also know of the 5 other players 2 have threatned to walk. The real problem... the DM throws these gilt trips... and he has already said he really wants this game to go somewhere...
I can't just back out of the game (What I would normaly do) becuse as the normal DM of the night, and the owner of the house we game at, and the person who owns the minis we use, me leaving the game ends the game.
This DM is inexperienced, and doesn't really understand what he has taken on, but sounds keen that he wants to continue DM-ing. Bear in mind he will probably have a different style and approach to you, even assuming he's keen enough to put some effort in - you'll probably never have to track resources (you may find he doesn't enjoy that as a player btw), but perhaps you'll get some creative story lines and enough consistency that you can relax and enjoy the game.
Some suggestions you could run past him:
1) He runs a pre-made adventure - even if you are in the middle of his wannabe amazing global plot, then surely you could fit in 3-4 levels of a pre-made.
2) He gets onto the forums here or similar and asks for help on areas where he feels he wants to improve.
3) You work on prepping an adventure with him, and show him what's usually involved. His idea that he only wants to spend 5-10 minutes is laughable, and it might help if he's shown what really goes into the sessions you prepare.
long and short of it is I am having no fun. I also know of the 5 other players 2 have threatned to walk. The real problem... the DM throws these gilt trips... and he has already said he really wants this game to go somewhere...
UGH I'm not in the same boat right now but I've had a similar experience. A very noobie DM wanted to DM and made us all feel sorry for them when it didn't go well so they could still DM.
Honestly best thing you can do is be completely open about it. Heck try to avoid focusing on the DMing if you think it will cause lasting problems and say that you really *really* would prefer to DM again. That might work as well.
Unless they are willining to learn more about the rules and do more prep work you are doomed to a bad game.
He does need to be confronted by the players but as perviously mentioned in as constructive a way possible (e'g. "look we do appreciate that you want to DM but can you run a 4E game as per the books(pretty much but I'd lower non boss enemy HP's-IMHO) until you get to grips with the system because we're not enjoying it as much as I think you want us to, think about it ok?" something like that maybe.
If he starts trying to explain his homebrew changes, then pull him up "as i've said can you stick to the 4E books for now?"
If he still adamant about not changing then it's between the players what you do but better you boot him DMing and someone else takes over. He's not going to like it but if your not enjoying it( all of the players) then better as above than the group breaks up.
1st fight he said we could as a minor action switch weapons or implments...
1st round of fight 2 the battle mind used his move action to move, his minor to mark, then said he wanted to switch his weapon as a free action... the DM said it was ok, that from now on it is free action switch...
then another player said "Hey, can I retrain quick draw then, since you just gave it to everyone" and the DM told him there was no more retraining at all... he was stuck with that feat for the life of the character....
In the middle of a skill challange he called "climb the mountin" he would not let us use athletics checks to climb...
ok, so tongith we played again, and he got very mad when I told him i was not having fun. When we got into game it just got worse.
1st fight he said we could as a minor action switch weapons or implments...
1st round of fight 2 the battle mind used his move action to move, his minor to mark, then said he wanted to switch his weapon as a free action... the DM said it was ok, that from now on it is free action switch...
then another player said "Hey, can I retrain quick draw then, since you just gave it to everyone" and the DM told him there was no more retraining at all... he was stuck with that feat for the life of the character....
In the middle of a skill challange he called "climb the mountin" he would not let us use athletics checks to climb...
These two are especially egregious. Time to hit the road.
This doesn't mean he is a "bad DM". He might simply be better off with a system that has less mechanics and more story-telling. Also the whole group would have to be up for that style of play. Making that kind of switch is a whole-group decision.
There is obviously at least one other player in your group who is happy to ask for house rules in his/her favour, or that simplify things greatly, and then use them. The clash on Free Action switching items shows there is more going on in your group than just one inexperienced DM. If all the players wanted to stick by the rules, you could all simply use the correct action sequence . . . the DM cannot force you to use free actions to draw weapons. Or at the very least he cannot force your characters to spend actions that in your mind's eye were used up on something else.
Same is true of some other rules clashes you quoted - if the players all agreed about sleeping prone with armour off and needing to put it on, you would simply state that was what your characters were doing. The DM would have to respect your characters' use of actions, even if he thought it laughable or a waste of time.
So, perhaps at least one player in the group is taking full advantage of rules tweaks in their favour, and the rest of you feel like you have to use them to remain competitive? Actually you don't need to do this. For at least half of what you are complaining about, you and the experienced players can simply stick to the rules as written. Yes it will put your characters at a disadvantage compared to players in the group happy to go along with freebies, but you could just see that as a challenge . . .
I hope you can sort it out amicably with the group.
Seriously, this guy doesn't want to DM a game. This really smells to me like the spoiled kid who had all the action figures but doesn't want to play with them alone, so he invites other kids over to play but instead just tells them what to do with the figures. Or the kid who takes money out of the bank in Monopoly when he's low because "It's my game and I can do what I want!" Frankly, I'm not even sure I'd want to PLAY with someone with an attitude like that, let alone let him run a game.
I mean I don't know the guy so I can't judge him, maybe the power of being DM's just gone to his head. But a DM's job is to make sure the players are having fun and from what you've said, he's actively PREVENTED one player from having fun by not allowing him to get rid of a now almost useless feat (the +2 to Initiative is still useful, but not when compared to Improved Initiative that gives +4). Then there's you not having fun. I'm sure if you talked to the other players, they probably don't like it either.
There's three solutions I see, which have varying levels of maturity on your part. The most adult solution would be for you and your players to perform an intervention of sorts, explaining calming and with positive word choices exactly what's bothering you all. A slightly less mature but still completely reasonable response would be to just stop playing. If you're not having fun, it's just not worth the investment of time.
My favorite option (and obviously the least mature option) is adapted from something I pulled on my roommate when he kept getting on my nerves playing Borderlands. He played the Soldier character while I played the Sniper. He kept repeatedly jumping into my line of fire and it drove me nuts. So I told him one night, "I don't really feel like going on with the campaign right now, I just want to blow off some steam. Let's play new characters and switch roles." So I then acted exactly like he did, frustrating the hell out of him. He got the message and was much better about making sure my line of fire was clear.
What you can do is tell the guy you'd like to run a quick one-shot, then run the game EXACTLY like he does. Make arbitrary rules decisions that make some of his character choices useless, introduce an allied NPC that acts like a Mary Sue, play DM vs Player, tell him what his character does, use lots of railroading...and don't say a word as to why until either the session is done or he flips out and starts a fight. Then point out that you thought that was the sort of game he liked playing in since that's how he's running his game. You'd have to get the other players on your side as well to pull this off, but a long look in the mirror is usually enough to snap some people out of bad habits.
And just because you're not playing doesn't mean you can't still host. When my apartment was having issues with the air conditioner in the middle of a campaign, a friend of mine let me play at his place and take advantage of his gear even though he didn't want to play because he didn't want to hop in mid-game. He watched for a while and helped us by keeping track of initiative and move figures around the battlemat for me so I didn't have to navigate the maze of chairs to get to the other side of the board, stuff like that...when we weren't in combat, he read. Even though he wasn't playing, he invited us back anytime. Eventually, I got him to play after they finished their current quest.
This really smells to me like the spoiled kid who had all the action figures but doesn't want to play with them alone, so he invites other kids over to play but instead just tells them what to do with the figures
HAH! Great, I love it.
talk or leave.
I'd suggest (as others have) talking first, because it's the more friendly solution. First you should get the rest of the group's opinion, is everyone "suffering" like you are? Come to a consensus about what you all would like to see/play. Then present this to the DM in question. Maybe 4E just isn't his game (to DM). I have a guy in one of my current groups who gave it a try and just didn't like to DM with players idea, as he's more the DM vs. players type of guy.
Should it come to the point where you see no other alternative but leaving, don't hesitate to do so. I didn't, even though I was (also) the guy in our group who had all the books, minis, battlemap, etc. The group will survive, or if they don't it's no longer your problem.
As a side note, I think we all made some horrible mistakes the first time we tried our hand at DMing. It's only natural to make some. However, if we don't learn from those mistakes and don't listen to the feedback we get from our players (are they having a good time, do they enjoy returning to your table every (other) week) that is when we fail as a DM.
K-man
Right now my players like my style of DMing, hopefully I get better at it.
I would print off this thread and then talk to each member of your group privately about these issues. If most of them are unhappy, then talk to your DM privately. If he won't change, then have the group talk to your DM. The practical upshot may be a new DM.
As mentioned above, you can still host a game even if you don't play. This may be a way to get yourself out of the pressure-cooker for a while. Perhaps a better solution will present itself over time.
P.S. Don't be a kibbutz - to anybody!
Make sure to point out that you want to keep the DM in the group ... just not as DM. (Assuming that that is where your head is at.) It may be time to close this campaign and start anew. Does anybody else in the group want to try DMing a mini-campaign?
I can't just back out of the game (What I would normaly do) becuse as the normal DM of the night, and the owner of the house we game at, and the person who owns the minis we use, me leaving the game ends the game.
It's not like you're going to have any more fun feeling like you're forced to play. Get them to move the game to a new location and if things don't improve ditch them.
Obviously if this is the case, it's backfiring if several people are threatening to walk. Maybe you just need to take over again and run something until he is willing and able to actually read the rules, actually get to know the setting (for real) and prepare a game. Honestly, in game prep time alone he is being an inconsiderate DM if nothing else. Most people who sit down to play a game of D&D should (rightfully) figure that the DM has done the common courtesy of doing some prep work ahead of time. So he's making a huge mistake in the gamer etiquette department in my book.
then he makes weird house rules... (like you can sleep non prone, fully equiped, with weapons ready) becuse when we got attacked in camp, I was laughed at for saying "Move action stand, minor action draw weapon, then standard action... later he covered by saying "No waking up, and standing and getting into your armor and weapons are a free action"
Not that I agree with that assessment either, but default 4e rules state no penalty to sleeping fully armored and armed.
Not pleasant, but seems like it needs to be done. If you can't get anyone on your side, you could try taking a week or two off. Don't lie about it, but just let people know you want a little break. If they don't play since you're not hosting, or have to scramble to find some other location, they'll understand that you're serious and something needs to change. If you're not enjoying it, why bother playing?