Take any character who can regularly function as a non-melee combatant, yet can reliably strike with a melee attack. Just for funsies, I'm going to make this an Elf Druid. I shall name her Patience.
Step one, play as a caster Druid. Never go beast form, never take opportunity attacks. Attack with nothing but spells, ever. Despite this, crowd yourself into melee whenever possible. This isn't necessary yet, but consider it a roleplay prereq that'll make everyone at the table stare.
On your way to paragon, multiclass Fighter. At eleventh level, take the Shield Adept paragon path. Never actually use a shield; that would make too much sense, and might keep your friends from underestimating you.
Continue to crowd melee, attack with spells only, never make melee attacks yourself. You will be regarded as an eccentric, or perhaps a moron. Play this up so that they will not guess at your true intentions.
Take Eternal Defender at twenty-first level. When people ask why, explain that you want your caster to have reach. Try not to smile when they call you crazy.
Someday, probably at level 30, your party will end up facing Orcus. Beg, bug, or bribe your comrades into delaying until you've gone first. On your initiative, get within two squares of him. Wildshape into beast form for the first time ever in your career. Make a Wisdom vs. Reflex beast form attack (with reach), using elven accuracy if you must in order to make it land.
When the DM asks how much damage you deal, roll the dice and add the normal relevant modifiers. Then turn to the sheet of checkmarks you've been maintaining since level eleven, tallying the number of times an adjacent enemy has attacked an ally with a melee attack.
Double that number and add it to your damage, thanks to Shield Bearer's Payback. If you've tallied five such marks per combat, it should be more than enough.
As Orcus falls dead, one-shotted by the only melee attack your caster will ever make, smile at your DM and fellow players and tell them that no, you aren't crazy. You're just patient.
__
* Obviously I'm not advocating the use of this, nor suggesting that any competent DM would allow it. (Still, it'd be a hell of a thing to see happen, like way back in WoW when that Pally one-hit-killed Kazzak.) Not being an optimizer myself, I can't be certain that this works, though it looks like it would by RAW. Hell, maybe there's a way that works even better. I'm not even sure that it hasn't been brought up yet (though I did search). I just wanted to point it out for funsies. :D
This is funny.
Umm... does the power really work like that? Can you explain it a bit more to me?
Yep!
Shield Bearer's Payback (11th level): Each time an enemy adjacent to you attacks an ally with a melee attack, you gain a cumulative +2 bonus to your next melee damage roll.
Unlike other abilities which grant stacking bonuses of this sort, Shield Bearer's Payback doesn't give a time limit in which the bonus must be used. It's open-ended and expressly cumulative, so as far as I can tell, this works by RAW.
EDIT: Also, since it adds to the 'next melee damage roll' rather than being a damage bonus on the 'next attack', it shouldn't be wasted on a miss either.
Unlike other abilities which grant stacking bonuses of this sort, Shield Bearer's Payback doesn't give a time limit in which the bonus must be used. It's open-ended and expressly cumulative, so as far as I can tell, this works by RAW.
Doesn't it break the "no stacking from the same effect" clause?
EDIT: Ah... "cumulative".
Well, this is in for erreta.
Heck, if you use a melee attack power that deals damage on a miss, you don't even have to hit Orcus.
If the miss requires a damage roll, that's correct. Of course, if it's a 'miss: half damage' effect, then you're lopping off nearly ten levels' worth of damage, and there's a very real chance you wouldn't get the one-shot!
If that isn't the case by RAW then that is the way I'd rule it at my table regardless.
I'd personally let a player who was that patient do it, once, and then put a "house clarification" in the books that specifies such bonuses resetting to 0 at the end of an encounter. Which is probably the "fix" we'll get for this in the PHB 2 or in errata before that point.
You're all crying for errata, but there's no need. Nobody is going to actually do this. Still, it's great fun in theory, and I would totally allow it in my own games, provided everything was properly roleplayed.
I would too. If someone was willing to be that patient to pull off something amazing, I think I'd allow it. Even after all my time DMing, my PC's still occasionally surprise me, and I always reward them when they do.
If a player is insanely ;) patient enough to set this up, there's no reason for it not to happen once (assuming no errata of course). Then I'd houserule on it (like Batshido mentions).
I'd rule similar to Winterstar: Since you regain encounter and daily powers with an extended rest, I'd rule that such power bonuses reset at that time.
I would too. If someone was willing to be that patient to pull off something amazing, I think I'd allow it. Even after all my time DMing, my PC's still occasionally surprise me, and I always reward them when they do.
Ditto. This trick is just too cool to punish someone for doing it in any way. Even if i thought the ability was broken i wouldn't change it because its so damned flavorful.
Plus I'm not a big fan of allowing something once with the intention of houseruling it, not the mention to me instead of being "cool" and stylish it strikes me as one player stealing the stoplight to upstage everyone else during what is clearly supposed to be the climax of the entire campaign.
elf druid? 4.0?
DDI article (a preview)
The problem is that if you would allow this trick to work at the scale suggested then you would have to also allow it at smaller scales, instead of one-shotting a Demon Lord they are one-shotting Irontooth or the crazy cleric dude trying to bring Orcus into the world.
Plus I'm not a big fan of allowing something once with the intention of houseruling it, not the mention to me instead of being "cool" and stylish it strikes me as one player stealing the stoplight to upstage everyone else during what is clearly supposed to be the climax of the entire campaign.
You make two very good points. I may have to revise my previous statement.
As for one player upstaging the others after dropping Orcus in one-shot: Look out! Here comes Demogorgon! Orcus was just a decoy*-- the Prince of Demons was behind it all from the start ;). Now, the other players get their shots.
* Orcus is a "minion", ha!
IF you are willing to suck for 29 levels to get off one spectacular shot, I'm not going to stop you.
To be fair, I deliberately gimped Patience's concept for comic effect. It could be pulled off much more elegantly if she were, say, a heavy shield-toting laser Cleric optimized versus opportunity attacks with the intent of provoking OAs against her high AC to give the Fighter extra attacks. Shield Adept wouldn't be half bad for such a character.
As for the ED, I only picked that for the reach to avoid Orcus' adjacent stun effect. Patience could just take whatever ED is most effective (so... Demigod?) and smugly borrow the Fighter's +6 Reach Weapon of Awesome for one round (or use a non-reach after letting someone move in first and take Orcus' Tail Lash for the round). With Bracers of Mental Might she can use Wisdom for the melee attack, and if we stick with Elf we get to keep the free reroll to up the odds of connecting on the first try.
It still takes a lot of planning and patience (:D), but it really doesn't require the abysmal character design I suggested.
EDIT: The notion of using it against smaller bosses should be fairly self-correcting (well, DM-correcting and, thus, less productive than saving it for Orcus) simply because you'll probably only be allowed to use this tactic once, no matter the target. Might as well keep it as a surprise for the end. As a DM, I'd have to let the player have the Orcus kill (on the sole condition that zie came up with it on zir own instead of just playing copypasta from the forums), but I'm right there with Artifact. I'd probably have Orcus come out from behind a curtain, agape with fury at the players so easily dispatching the perfect simulacrum he spent centuries conjuring. If the player gets to spring entertaining power-cheese, I get to respond in kind.
Patience herself should actually be perhaps Melora slumming as an Elf to get to Orcus when he least expects it (the Goddess of Nature would certainly have "Patience" :P). Then, instead of Initiative, you get a cut-scene, where Patience slowly approaches Orcus, time itself seems to slow down...and then she Wildshapes into an Ancient Elder Colossal Nature Elemental and puts a branch the size of a Volvo through Orcus' chest. :D
Yeah, that'd totally kick ass.
Admittedly, such a trick is more fun when the players are caught off guard. Too bad MrCelsius ruined it for everyone :P.
Since I'm too principled ever to inflict this on anyone (though it'd be a fun curve to throw at my brother, the neophyte DM, should he ever run a high-level 4e game... :devil
, the only way I get to show it off is by ruining it for everyone. I can't feel too bad, though; the only players I care about trying to use it are mine, and any DMs I've ruined it for ought to have enough roleplaying experience to still act convincingly surprised when it crops up. :DIf the Player TOLD me what they were doing, I'd OK it as a...let's call it a "Cinematic Exception."
Sorry, I just can't get behind that. It'd turn the awesome, surprising player achievement into just another moment of DM fiat narrative. If I were to go with the 'cinematic' method, I'd let the player perform the trick mechanically, pause for laughter/applause, and then describe it that way. After spending a five-minute game break hiding in the bathroom going 'what the
do I do now?!', of course. :DAfter spending a five-minute game break hiding in the bathroom going 'what the
Which is one of the problems in allowing this. Yeah, maybe it's cool for a bit, everyone goes "Whoa". But then... what? It's over. The bad guy is gone. The expected climatic battle is over in the blink of an eye, it shouldn't even be concidered an "encounter".
And of course, there are those who may have been looking forward to the battle, then been handed a curveball of "No battle today, I one shotted him."
Really, as long as everyone is told beforehand that this will happen, and what it will entail, and that everyone is cool with it, it would be great. Of course, as you say, it removes that "suprise" factor. But that's just a problem with the premise. Bot options have problems.
But that's just a problem with the premise. Bot options have problems.
Nah, from both the player and the DM perspectives, I have no problem with springing it on absolutely everyone for the fun surprise, allowing the DM some time to figure out what the hell happens next (any player who isn't understanding about the DM catching a curve-ball that huge needs a kick in the pants), and being willing to accept anything from 'okay, that was really cool, but it doesn't happen' to 'that was a decoy you killed' to 'Orcus uses his once-per-year self-rez and declares that now he's really mad' (though both the DM and the player in me like that last one the most).
IF you are willing to suck for 29 levels to get off one spectacular shot, I'm not going to stop you.
I concur.
It's just like the WoW Pally retribution technique of having an unarmed rogue pummel you while you're sitting.
If the Player TOLD me what they were doing, I'd OK it as a...let's call it a "Cinematic Exception."
Patience herself should actually be perhaps Melora slumming as an Elf to get to Orcus when he least expects it (the Goddess of Nature would certainly have "Patience" :P). Then, instead of Initiative, you get a cut-scene, where Patience slowly approaches Orcus, time itself seems to slow down...and then she Wildshapes into an Ancient Elder Colossal Nature Elemental and puts a branch the size of a Volvo through Orcus' chest. :D
Yeah, that'd totally kick ass.
Tomato In The Mirror! Even Patience didn't know she was actually Melora in disguise! Melora stole water from the river Lethe while visiting the Raven Queen's domain. Normally the water completely washes away all memories, but since Melora is a goddess, they were only suppressed temporarily.
Needless to say, I absolutely love your idea.
Bonus mythic-points if Patience's (not Melora's) reason for wanting to destroy Orcus has something to do with losing a daughter.
I'm a big fan of my players describing what they do in dramatic situations. It's never "I jump on the chandelier, I rolled 24 for my acrobatics". Its "Seeing the guards behind me, I dash for the railing. Turning my head to smile at the guards, I leap towards the chandelier." (rolls 24) "I grasp the bottom of the massive decoration, swinging towards the balcony on the other side of the room"
Just wondering how one would describe it.
You don't necessarily have to stack this for 29 levels. Just get a low level enemy to attack an ally in melee while you stand by. Sure, the poor kobold might get tired after a while, but you can just bring in another.
It's just like the WoW Pally retribution technique of having an unarmed rogue pummel you while you're sitting.
I'm pretty sure that the rules specifically say somewhere that an attack has to come from a credible threat in order to trigger things like this. I dunno where. I'll let someone less savagely sleep-depped than me chime in with whether I'm right or wrong.
I'm pretty sure that the rules specifically say somewhere that an attack has to come from a credible threat in order to trigger things like this. I dunno where. I'll let someone less savagely sleep-depped than me chime in with whether I'm right or wrong.
As well, that assumes that the DM will throw random, low power monsters at you so you can "pump up". This isn't like WoW, where you can just go slumming on low levels monsters that densly populate feilds.
As well, that assumes that the DM will throw random, low power monsters at you so you can "pump up". This isn't like WoW, where you can just go slumming on low levels monsters that densly populate feilds.
But it apparently is like WoW, in that the DM is going to just go along with your exploitation of the ability. I think it's safe to say that level 30 adventurers could find a den of kobolds, intimidate them into surrendering, cage at least some of them, and then force them to attack a party member.
You don't have to take only what the DM chooses to "throw at you," unless he's a bad DM who's railroading you. Surely there's some low level monsters somewhere.
Tomato In The Mirror! Even Patience didn't know she was actually Melora in disguise! Melora stole water from the river Lethe while visiting the Raven Queen's domain. Normally the water completely washes away all memories, but since Melora is a goddess, they were only suppressed temporarily.
Needless to say, I absolutely love your idea.
Bonus mythic-points if Patience's (not Melora's) reason for wanting to destroy Orcus has something to do with losing a daughter.
NICE! :D
But it apparently is like WoW, in that the DM is going to just go along with your exploitation of the ability. I think it's safe to say that level 30 adventurers could find a den of kobolds, intimidate them into surrendering, cage at least some of them, and then force them to attack a party member.
You don't have to take only what the DM chooses to "throw at you," unless he's a bad DM who's railroading you. Surely there's some low level monsters somewhere.
I wouldn't call it "railroading" or "bad DMing" because they don't provide random kobold nests for you to raid. If the DM does not want them there, they are not there.
And again, I'm one of the ones who wants to see erreta for this. It is an obvious abuse, even if some people think it is "awesome".
I wouldn't call it "railroading" or "bad DMing" because they don't provide random kobold nests for you to raid. If the DM does not want them there, they are not there.
And again, I'm one of the ones who wants to see erreta for this. It is an obvious abuse, even if some people think it is "awesome".
I think people some don't see quite as dramatically as an abuse because of all the hoops you have to jump through to work it. You have to take a fighter paragon path, never EVER use a melee attack from that point on while simultaneously standing adjacent to as many enemies as possible during every encounter, and wait ⅔s of your character's career to use this exploit against a single target... once....
Ever....
I think people some don't see quite as dramatically as an abuse because of all the hoops you have to jump through to work it. You have to take a fighter paragon path, never EVER use a melee attack from that point on while simultaneously standing adjacent to as many enemies as possible during every encounter, and wait more than half of your character's career to use this exploit... once....
Ever....
If pun-pun was a one-time explosion that took a ridiculous amount of build-up to achieve and immediately rendered you balanced to never like work as well again, I don't think people would have had as big a problem with him.
As was pointed out in another post, though, you don't neccesarily have to "charge your lazer" for 30 levels. If used right, I don't see this as a one time ever blast. I'm not saying it's a huge travesty, and that it will end the game. It just sort of seems like that wasn't the intent, at all, of the power.
What happens if you don't actually get to face Orcus at the end?
You do the same thing to Tiamat? Or, soon enough, to Graz'zt?
You do the same thing to Tiamat? Or, soon enough, to Graz'zt?
If you do it to Tiamat, she just discorporates and you'll have to face her again....
If you do it to Tiamat, she just discorporates and you'll have to face her again....
Yeah, but you still likely won the final encounter of your epic career...so for all intents and purposes...
As was pointed out in another post, though, you don't neccesarily have to "charge your lazer" for 30 levels. If used right, I don't see this as a one time ever blast. I'm not saying it's a huge travesty, and that it will end the game. It just sort of seems like that wasn't the intent, at all, of the power.
I'm with Rust on this one. Fun's fun, but a loophole is a loophole. It's like in Terminator 2; sure, Arnold was a nice Terminator who aimed for kneecaps, gave thumbs-ups, and finally understood what it is to cry, but when all's said and done, he's still gotta go in the molten steel because Terminators are, ultimately, bad. It's really only a matter of time before any killing machine that's on your side obeys its invariably shoddy programming instead of your human morality and decides for whatever reason that it would be perfectly logical to murder everyone on the planet.
Ditto this rules loophole. Sure, it's cute and eccentric and has a funny anthropomorphizing name slapped on, but just because it's manageable right now doesn't mean that it isn't a flaw in the design of a rules system that we want to remain balanced and intact. It may not be at the top of our fix-it lists, but it really ought to be patched up sooner than later before the right splatbook comes along and blows that little loophole wide open.
I'm with Rust on this one. Fun's fun, but a loophole is a loophole. It's like in Terminator 2; sure, Arnold was a nice Terminator who aimed for kneecaps, gave thumbs-ups, and finally understood what it is to cry, but when all's said and done, he's still gotta go in the molten steel because Terminators are, ultimately, bad. It's really only a matter of time before any killing machine that's on your side obeys its invariably shoddy programming instead of your human morality and decides for whatever reason that it would be perfectly logical to murder everyone on the planet.
Ditto this rules loophole. Sure, it's cute and eccentric and has a funny anthropomorphizing name slapped on, but just because it's manageable right now doesn't mean that it isn't a flaw in the design of a rules system that we want to remain balanced and intact. It may not be at the top of our fix-it lists, but it really ought to be patched up sooner than later before the right splatbook comes along and blows that little loophole wide open.
Oh, I don't know if anyone is saying it isn't ridiculous. I just think the consensus is that it's (in most cases) rather manageable. Since it's a fighter paragon path, the typical character that would have that ability would be a melee combatant... so losing access to melee abilities happens to be a huge hindrance to characters. On the other hand, it's when you make ridiculous multiclass characters that the ability becomes nuts. A wizard who takes the paragon path would be able to rely on most of his other abilities until the very moment he desires to unload this ridiculous exploit (since for all intents and purposes, he has no other melee abilities... he can just one day decide to whack a guy with his staff, causing him to explode violently). Druids who refuse to wildshape and other range and close attack-based class builds would also be able to exploit it to the utmost. It's for these cases it should be fixed.
Literally, all it needs is "during this encounter" added to the end of the description (right after "next damage roll"). Hell, I might even be willing to let by with "if you do not have any multiclass feats, this cumulative effect carries on to any encounter". A pacifist fighter who unloads epic awesome once could be a funny gimmick.
Course, there might be a way to manipulate this a bit, by, say, spending 24 hours with summoned minion or something, and having it attack the guy standing next to you. ;)
one player stealing the stoplight
I was quickly in need of a monitor wipe and a new Coke.
You're all crying for errata, but there's no need. Nobody is going to actually do this. Still, it's great fun in theory, and I would totally allow it in my own games, provided everything was properly roleplayed.
I agree that it's great fun in theory, but there's no way it could ever BE roleplayed properly. A caster who never swings is not ever going to be able to properly roleplay a fighter multi-class. The same goes that shield paragon path without ever using a shield. They make no sense to allow if proper roleplay is required.
I agree that it's great fun in theory, but there's no way it could ever BE roleplayed properly. A caster who never swings is not ever going to be able to properly roleplay a fighter multi-class. The same goes that shield paragon path without ever using a shield. They make no sense to allow if proper roleplay is required.
Er... What? Proper roleplay? As in, "you're doing it wrong, that's not the proper way to roleplay" kind of proper?
I mean, it's a cute little trick (if I had a player pull that ****, I would check the books, realize it worked, and then say "Oh well then, you totally KO'd Orcus. Congrats, I guess."
But "a caster who never swings is not ever going to be able to properly roleplay a fighter multiclass"? Seriously? I'm assuming that that's not what you mean. Because there are just some obvious choices to prove that statement wrong - like the Wizard who multiclasses into Fighter, not for the attacks, but for the staying power (via Utility swap).
Same for the Shield paragon path - the path actually has some really awesome defensive options, if you like using a shield. It would be suboptimal, but it could still be roleplayed.
But "a caster who never swings is not ever going to be able to properly roleplay a fighter multiclass"? Seriously? I'm assuming that that's not what you mean. Because there are just some obvious choices to prove that statement wrong - like the Wizard who multiclasses into Fighter, not for the attacks, but for the staying power (via Utility swap).
That's a mechanical(read power gaming for more staying power) choice, not an RP choice. There is no RP there for the wizard to multi-class into FIGHTER.
Same for the Shield paragon path - the path actually has some really awesome defensive options, if you like using a shield. It would be suboptimal, but it could still be roleplayed.
Yep, same the for the shield paragon path ;)
There are mechanical reasons to make the switch, but without acting the part of the paragon path, it's simply not roleplayed.
The whole trick relies on not playing out the fighter and shield paragon path, and then springing the mechanics on the unsuspecting DM later.
However, a follower of the Shield Path really should be using a shield.
Still, I agree you have a point, there is no fragging way that this trick even remotely falls into roleplaying.
What kind of COWARD fights from the rear? A buckler is useful, although you've never seen a Quarterstaff in action if you think it is used only for attack. A true hero gets right in front of his enemy and hits him in the NADS, as often as possible. Instead of hiding behind a rock, a true hero unleashes lethal fire from his fingertips, into the face of the enemy. He defends his allies from getting stabbed in the back, and is always able to aid another's attack. Gandalf, an example held by many as a wizard, was often toe-to-toe.
Wizards already have almost no incentive to not take Leather proficiency, I don't see why they'd be opposed to shields.
The whole idea intrigues me now. I'm wondering how many power levels you can't get something useable in melee as a Wizard (so, Close powers).
Taking a Look...
At-Will: Thunderwave, we all know.
Encounter 1: Burning Hands
Daily 1: ---
Encounter 3: Color Spray, Fire Shroud
Daily 5: ---
Encounter 7: ---
Daily 9: ---
Encounter 13: Thunderlance
Daily 15: Blast of Cold, Prismatic Beams
Encounter 17: ---
Daily 19: Acid Wave
Encounter 23: ---
Daily 25: Prismatic Spray
Encounter 27: Black Fire
Daily 29: Legion's Hold
So, 8 out of 15 wizard attack-power levels have a "close" option. It's not completely undoable, just probably ill-advised.
Then again, with an At-Will, and a few encounters, you'd be more than set for most of your career.
At-Will: Thunderwave, we all know.
Encounter 1: Burning Hands
Daily 1: ---
Encounter 3: Color Spray, Fire Shroud
Daily 5: ---
Encounter 7: ---
Daily 9: ---
Encounter 13: Thunderlance
Daily 15: Blast of Cold, Prismatic Beams
Encounter 17: ---
Daily 19: Acid Wave
Encounter 23: ---
Daily 25: Prismatic Spray
Encounter 27: Black Fire
Daily 29: Legion's Hold
So, 8 out of 15 wizard attack-power levels have a "close" option. It's not completely undoable, just probably ill-advised.
Then again, with an At-Will, and a few encounters, you'd be more than set for most of your career.
Remember Pippen? Whenever Gandalf stopped watching him, he did something stupid.
Well, sure you might fire a few spells at people further away from you. After all, you can't move around the battle-field all willy-nilly. You have to stay where you are and not let up on your attacks, but saving the rogue's arse because he went toe-to-toe with the wrong guy is perfectly honourable. Just remember to read him the riot act on how you're busy fighting with people on this side of the combat, and he shouldn't be wandering off alone.
Remember Pippen? Whenever Gandalf stopped watching him, he did something stupid.
Poor, poor Pippen.
Babysitter of the Rings, more like it.
Wizards already have almost no incentive to not take Leather proficiency, I don't see why they'd be opposed to shields.
I think I might take my chances with a lower AC, trusting the defender to keep the foes from attacking me, in exchange for a nice set of Shimmering robes. That way I could use any spells I want without worrying about OAs.
I agree with the "in your face" idea, but where I disagree is the idea that the "in your face" Wizard who never makes a melee attack suddenly unleashes the ultimate strike of doom.
As in all things, it's simply a matter of how you play it. Through backstory, all things are made possible. Take my laser cleric idea for example.
Since he was a boy, Ven had always known what he was destined to be. When the other youths of his village declared that they would be hunters, or soothsayers, or chiefs of the tribe, Ven would answer simply, "I will be a legend." His kin would laugh and tell him not to dream so big, but he would merely repeat himself. "I will be a legend." With the knowing of only ten winters in his heart he slew a fierce bearmother, and then his kin did not laugh so loudly at his claim. Two summers hence he returned from his first war with a chieftain's ear, and they never laughed again. By the time he was old enough to wed, even the elders of the tribe could be heard to echo his bold words to one another. "He will be a legend."
When the Dark Ones came, inhuman foes rising from the shadow beneath the world, Ven's sword was the first to reave their flesh in battle. Fearless, he led his tribe into their ranks, fighting for their very survival. Many lives were claimed by his blade, but before the battle was done, he met the blade that would claim his. As he lie on the cold earth, feeling the warmth of his life flowing away into it, he gasped his final words with furious resolve, "No... I will be... a legend..."
"No," answered a voice that surrounded Ven in the darkness, smooth and cold as a stone, "you won't." The darkness seemed to deepen, yet in it he could see himself standing before the Queen of Ravens. "I cannot die," he stated firmly, "I am not yet a legend. It is my destiny." The Queen cawed a mirthless laugh. "Do not speak of destiny to one who weaves at its loom, little ghost. Countless lives would meet their end at the edge of your warblade, lives which are fated by my will to greater deeds than granting truth to your boast. Were you to live on, great warrior, your sword would unmake the world."
Ven did not hesitate nor break her black gaze. He drew his sword, such as he had in this place beyond time, and cast it down at her feet. "Take it, then. I grant you the lives I would claim on the warrior's path in exchange for my destiny, however I may yet find it." The Queen of Ravens seemed to smile as she considered this bargain. With a flurry of shadows and the fluttering of wings, the sword to which Ven had once pledged his life was gone. "Very well, Ven of the Starhunter tribe. I shall grant you your life on the condition that you seek your legend in my name, by my will. You shall take no life by sword, for that path is forbidden to you; no life but one. When the day on which you will fulfill your destiny is upon you, you shall read the lifename written upon your sword, and you will know that it is time to strike, and to kill. On that day, Ven Starhunter, you will be a legend."
Ven knelt and thanked her, but when he opened his eyes, he was kneeling alone on the field of battle. Night had long since fallen, veiling the identities of the slain, rendering the battle's outcome unknowable. His sword was nearby, and on it he could see a word written in a language he could not understand. Not yet. As he sheathed his blade, knowing it would be many years before he drew it again, he began to hum the death-chant of the sacred Raven-speakers, trying to recall the words to mind. He'd have to know it if he was going to serve the Queen of Ravens. He would serve as her priest until the day of his destiny came. Then once more, in that final battle, he would be a warrior.
He would be a legend.
I think that would work pretty well.
So, Celsius, are you just part Jesus, or are you related to Asimov?
A little of column A, a little of column B. :angelhide
Really, though, thanks for the praise!
Perhaps, but then you've just given everyone at the table your plan and doomed it to failure. *winks*
If you say so. There's no part of that story that says what I plan to do, or how. All it says is that the character has a destined great battle, one which will be fought with his sword. For all anyone knows, it's simply a cool roleplaying element which will limit the character's viability in that fight. That background element need only be shown to the DM, and the only OOC caveat that need be asked (and that, only for flavour reasons) is 'I'd appreciate it if you made that legendary battle be against Orcus. I think it'd be fun to kill him, and he fits as a foe of the Raven Queen.'
For all anyone knows, it's simply a cool roleplaying element which will limit the character's viability in that fight.
Yeah, personally, if a fellow player had that kind of background, I would expect the other characters to write him off as a loony.
However, when it got to 30th level, and that last epic fight, and it paid off - that would be some truly epic gaming, right there.
I disagree, because the nature of your background will raise questions,
If you say so. Seems pretty self-explanatory and self-contained to me, like it's a big roleplayish explanation for being a warrior at heart but a priest in practice, with the odd bit of flavour that the character will take up the sword for a big dramatic Final Battle. I really doubt any DM who wasn't in on the plan would read that story point and say 'What are you planning?'
remember that as a player you are going to be counting every time you collect a power bonus, which is behavor that should draw direct questions and I seriously doubt any DM is going to allow the trick to work if you actually lie to him at any point.
Perhaps you expect me to ring a bell, shout 'THAT'S ANOTHER ONE!', and walk across the room to add a mark to the gigantic neon 'MR. CELSIUS' SECRET TALLY CHART' display board on the opposite wall every time an adjacent enemy attacks an ally in melee? If you think I couldn't keep a running tally, even for years of sessions, without anyone noticing, then you must never have seen a very good sleight of hand check. I wouldn't consider it wrong to hide the tally (such as simply writing it into the player notes that nobody else ever reads, or just jotting a discrete number into the margin) to keep the secret. I certainly wouldn't lie; only an amateur needs to resort to falsehoods in order to deceive people.
Shimmering Armor
Perhaps you expect me to ring a bell, shout 'THAT'S ANOTHER ONE!', and walk across the room to add a mark to the gigantic neon 'MR. CELSIUS' SECRET TALLY CHART' display board on the opposite wall every time an adjacent enemy attacks an ally in melee?
If I did this, this is totally the way I would handle it. I'm not even being sarcastic here.
And if you think the DM is going to notice that player X is making a small mark on a piece of paper every time an ally gets hit in melee then i'd like to know what kind of eagle-eyed DM's you've got, when i'm DMing i find it hard enough to just pay attention to what the players are announcing, much less what they're doing quietly while it's not their turn.
I feel confidant I would notice as the DM. Sure, maybe not the first time, maybe not for a while, depending on how busy the specific fights are. But over 30 levels worth of adventures? I'd definitely end up asking what they were writing down at some point, since I just attacked their friend and so they can't be marking down hit points.
I feel confidant I would notice as the DM. Sure, maybe not the first time, maybe not for a while, depending on how busy the specific fights are. But over 30 levels worth of adventures?
19 levels' worth, just to be clear.
I'd definitely end up asking what they were writing down at some point, since I just attacked their friend and so they can't be marking down hit points.
I dread to see the stasis your players must exist in, then. Only fiddling with their papers or picking up their pencils when it's their turn, never doodling or making notes or anything of the kind. How many blinks do you allow them per minute before it's considered disruptive? :P
Anyway, the tally can easily be masked by keeping a running 'battle log' in one's notebook. Just devote one line per turn, number the lines, and don't put a '.' after the number on turns where you got the bonus. Hell, it's perfectly valid (and less overtly sneaky) to actually keep that battle log and, in party down-time or even between sessions, tally up such instances by rereading that.
Or you could keep track in your head until the end of the session.
Or you could wear a wire and get a friend you trust with your life to clandestinely record every such instance from the secret room behind the false wall you built into your home. It will be recorded on microfilm, covertly couriered to an operative in Zurich, and transmitted back to you via a pirated radio broadcast disguised as an ad for a local college of dentistry. All those involved will keep a lethal dose of cyanide in a hollow tooth should the plot be discovered. The failsafe passphrase is
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'I heartily disdain the affectations of the Sudanese.'
Although something that I don't understand is why a Player would expect to keep a questionable rules interuptation like this secret from the DM and have everyone simply go along with it. From the rest of the party, sure, but from your own DM?
Do you need to win this hypothetical scenario that badly? Great, you're Superman, Professor Xavier, and Doc Manhattan all rolled into one. Nothing gets past you, UltraDM. Can we move on yet?
Jeez, I was just commenting on another post saying that he didn't think any DM would be able to suspect it. I'm just saying, in the games I run, and the players I have at the moment, I would end up asking them what they were writing down some time. Keep in mind, these are not the same people you are playing with, and I am not you as a DM (or these people are not you, and I am not the same as your DM).
Speaking of moving on, just what am I stopping you from moving on to? It seems like most of this whole thing has been beaten to death in the first page to the extent that, yes, it works so long as the DM will allow it/doesn't notice until it is too late and agrees to go along.
You see that is the problem, once you start talking about "secret tallies" and using sleight of hand then I think we start getting into "******* off the DM" territory.
True enough, but I think there's a difference between the kind of secret one keeps from someone in good faith (like what someone's present will be, or a harmless prank) and one intended to take advantage of someone else (insert nefarious examples here); in the one case, Patience's secret is being kept so that everyone can have a good laugh over the big surprise. It's not taking advantage, it's for fun. It'd only be nefarious if the player expected to use the secret to 'win the game' or some such. Since I already said that, as a player, I'd have no problem with the DM even saying 'I need that not to have happened,' since it is a rules exploit after all, it's purely in the realm of 'for funsies' and, thus, the acceptable kind of secrecy.
Although something that I don't understand is why a Player would expect to keep a questionable rules interuptation like this secret from the DM and have everyone simply go along with it. From the rest of the party, sure, but from your own DM?
Because it's a surprise. Also, to put a fine point on it, it's not a questionable interpretation. This is precisely how it works by RAW, its very straightforward, and there's really no room for questioning it. That being the case, with no questionable ruling needed for it to go as I say, why is it my obligation to tell the DM how the rules work? If zie okayed my taking that paragon path, zie should understand what it does. Does anyone who plays an elf have to take pains to explain to the DM how Elven Accuracy works? No. One of the best elements of the surprise is that anyone could have caught what was going on if they'd paid as much attention to the rules as the person enacting the surprise.
Jeez, I was just commenting on another post saying that he didn't think any DM would be able to suspect it.
Sorry if I kneejerked there. I just tossed out this idea as a bit of a lark, and it seems like people are taking it way too seriously, spending a lot of energy trying to shoot it down for reasons ranging from roleplay basis to whether or not the DM would notice the secret tally.
Speaking of moving on, just what am I stopping you from moving on to?
Nothing in particular, really. I admitted in that very paragraph that there's not really any point to be made or pursued. It just struck me as asinine to go back and forth over whether or not a hypothetical DM's Perception would beat a hypothetical player's Bluff to hide what would be, at its most visible, a half-second of slightly different note-taking in the midst of an activity which consists largely of note-taking. I suppose 'move on' was just my way of saying 'I would rather discuss any other element of this thread than this one'.
It seems like most of this whole thing has been beaten to death in the first page to the extent that, yes, it works so long as the DM will allow it/doesn't notice until it is too late and agrees to go along.
For me, the DM allowing it and agreeing to go along are just gravy. Keeping this exploit a secret exists solely for the moment in which I'd get to see the looks on everyone's faces when they realized that what I'd done was actually possible. The DM could retcon it right then and there (though I'd suggest zie let it stand and offer the 'used up his one self-rez per year' cop-out idea so it could stay a memorable part of the narrative and give me something for my work) and I'd understand completely. So really, for me, it'd be a success if all I managed to do was keep its working a secret until the big moment. :D
While we're looking for something to move on to, though, I have a question. People generally seem to be of the consensus that this isn't broken because it takes so long to set up, and its play-style limitations are fairly restrictive. What would it take to become broken? What feat, class feature, or epic destiny would have to come down the pipe in order for this to go from 'oh yeah, I'll keep an eye out for that, I guess' to 'holy crap, needs an errata now'?
However to answer your question I think the reason people think this is "cute" as opposed to game breaking is the fact that it is presented as an epic once in a campaign ability that quite frankly will never come up for the vast majority of people. Beacuse of which people aren't considering what happens if instead of waiting nineteen levels the character instead uses this against the "big bad" every couple sessions or so, after all, it is "merely" an exploit and is totally within RAW.
It's just not practical, sure you'll get one giant hit on a single enemy every level or so, but that's not going to make up for the fact that you're sucking balls everywhere else.
Really, you have to spend one feat to multiclass and then take a paragon path that although once again will feel out of place on the Char Op forum is a fair trade for the this ability as described.
Of course, it would be a really good idea to spend the necessary feats to actaully be able to properly wield a shield and some decent armor, but them's the breaks.
Gandalf, an example held by many as a wizard, was often toe-to-toe.
And even more often staff-to-face.
And even more often staff-to-face.
Who did Gandalf hit, aside from the Balrog?
Who did Gandalf hit, aside from the Balrog?
In the film, several orcs in Gondor siege
If that does work, Then I think I might actually make a Dwarf Cleric who burns a 2 feats (One Heroic, and one Epic) and his PP setting up this combo and is otherwise a normal Wis/Cha cleric. He'll have to Optimize his AC Vs. Opportunity attacks, but that doesn't seem like such a big deal. As long as he is standing next to a Fighter, he should be good.
Who did Gandalf hit, aside from the Balrog?
In The Hobbit he fought his way out of an orc/goblin infested cave. However, he used his sword, not his staff.
Doesn't it break the "no stacking from the same effect" clause?
EDIT: Ah... "cumulative".
Well, this is in for erreta.
Not really. Yes, it's broken when applied like this, but that was never the intention. It's a FIGHTER PP for god's sake! On top of that, any DM will soon see what you're doing, and politely ask you to not do it, and if need be, retrain everything, and even select new equipment, because no DM would allow this kind of sillyness.
Whats worse, is that this trick actually requires a time investment. You can't just start a level 30 character and have him swing his weapon and deal ten billion damage. You have to stand next to your fighter and watch him take attacks every combat in order to build up your Smash-O-Meter. What's more, if you're using a background like the one MrCelsius offered, you can get your DM in on it beforehand. Every day, you look at the hilt to see if you can read the name, and if you can't, you don't use it today. But one day, your DM says "The word is perfectly legible. Your Hilt clearly says Tiamat." This gives you your moment in the sun, and your DM shouldn't have any problems because he actively planned to have you One-Shot Tiamat.
Also, I still don't know if Rain of Steel works for this trick. It would make the application of the damage bonus a lot easier by bypassing the need to actually hit.
Neat trick. Sorta like collecting points on your "members only" card towards a free cookie :D.
If a player is insanely ;) patient enough to set this up, there's no reason for it not to happen once (assuming no errata of course). Then I'd houserule on it (like Batshido mentions).
I'd rule similar to Winterstar: Since you regain encounter and daily powers with an extended rest, I'd rule that such power bonuses reset at that time.
Ditto, never punish players for creativity and patience; you just better make damn well sure they can never exploit whatever loophole they found THIS TIME.
Thread necro! Partially for the lulz and partially to comment that they still haven't errata'd this one. It's not urgent, but it's certainly egregious. I'd have thought they'd get to it by now, especially since more content makes it more viable with every supplement (Reaper's Touch, etc). Mostly, though, I was just feeling nostalgic for my goofiest charop idea ever.