Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 forgelord Sep 09, 2009 21:57:12	Wizards in Lord of the Rings are rarely seen using magic, probably because magic is so rare in Lord of the Rings. In fact, there were only seven wizards in the history of LOTR. Sure, Saruman and Gandalf fight with staves and sword plenty, but the only magic I can remember seeing, at least in the movies, is: -Gandalf lighting up his staff -Gandalf having that little telekenisis type battle with Saruman when Saruman first betrayed Gandalf -Saruman shooting a fireball -Gandalf hewing the bridge with his staff and killing the Balrog Other than this, melee combat is mostly what they do. If I were to reflavor some of the spells, take some melee feats to improve my staff/sword damage and take the Wizard of the Spiral Tower paragon path would I be able to recreat a Lord of the Rings style wizard? Also, I love the way Gandalf wields a staff and sword, but is there anyway to do that in DnD? I could trade off, but is there anyway to wield a staff in one hand and a sword in the other?
#2 forgelord Sep 09, 2009 22:19:03	Hello?
#3 forgelord Sep 09, 2009 22:31:06	I think I've solved my problem. I'll use a battle staff in one hand and a sword in the other. I'll try to find an off-hand version of one of these.
#4 PrimeSonic Sep 10, 2009 1:16:25	Dude, relax. You won't always get a response within the first 30 minutes of your post. Now, since you want your wizard you do a fair deal of fighting with a sword, consider the following: -The Melee Training feat would let you use INT for your melee basic attacks. -Consider multiclassing into swordmage (or hybrid if possible) so you can get more sword melee powers that play off INT -Try to get at least leather armor, if not hide, to better your AC since you will be in melee range. That would probably be the most functional form of pulling that off.
#5 oxybe Sep 10, 2009 14:06:40	acutally, you don't need to have the staff in both hands to use it as an implement if memory serves, you just need to have it in a hand, so weilding the staff in your off-hand shouldn't be a problem. i know my dm let me have longsword in one hand & wand in the other for my swordmage/wizard, since both set of powers used diffrent implements (sword for the swordmage, wand for the wizard). now, as an off-topic, if we're going by the books gandalf wasn't really a wizard and more of an entity. he was a maiar if memory serves which meant he's a really powerful... angel-thing LotR equivalent who serve the valar (spelling?)... other maiar include saruman and sauron. gandalf was called a "wizard" but his powers are more divine in nature. nitpicky, i know :P.
#6 entropy_judge Sep 10, 2009 15:59:48	now, as an off-topic, if we're going by the books gandalf wasn't really a wizard and more of an entity. he was a maiar if memory serves which meant he's a really powerful... angel-thing LotR equivalent who serve the valar (spelling?)... other maiar include saruman and sauron. gandalf was called a "wizard" but his powers are more divine in nature. nitpicky, i know :P. IIRC, *all* the "wizards" in LotR were Maiar, as was Sauron.   And Morgoth was one of the ... ... god-type standins.  *does not feel like looking up the word*  Elves had magic (they made the swords and the Rings), and I think the Dwarves did as well ... humans, AFAIK, didn't.
#7 heroicserge Sep 11, 2009 2:09:18	It's a popular misconception that the Istari were the only wizard-types in the LotR world, but really, anyone with a functioning forebrain who thought about it for thirty seconds would see that it's completely wrong. The Witch-King of Angmar? Hello? Also the Mouth of Sauron is human and explicitly described as a sorcerer, and the Necromancer was doing evil things near Mirkwood for years under that name before Gandalf was motivated to poke him to see if he was Sauron. Nobody leapt to the conclusion that the Necromancer had to be a rogue Istari or Sauron just because he was an evil magician in a tower. DnD fetishises the books as the source of a wizard's power, which is in keeping with plenty of other fantasy that reifies the metaphor of knowledge being power, but there's nothing in LotR that clearly indicates that book learning is the source of supernatural power in that setting as far as I'm aware. Aragorn has power because he's a King, Luthien can sing monsters and gods to sleep because she's just that awesome, Gandalf and Sauron are angels, but nobody ever learned a spell out of a book as far as I can tell. So a DnD wizard with a spellbook is to some extent just a bad fit for a LotR homage. Offhand I'd make Gandalf an Invoker|Bard. He does a certain amount of dramatic light-shooting and intimidating, and LotR characters seem to be able to harm and repel evil opponents by yelling "Elbereth Gilthoniel" and whatnot which fits in with the Bard at-wills that hurl damaging abuse.
#8 entropy_judge Sep 11, 2009 8:59:48	Which is why I put "Wizard" in quotes like I did.  The Colored/Named Wizards - the only ones you really hear about - are, to my recollection, all angel-analogues.  I also said that Elves and (IIRC) Dwarves were capable of working magic.  Humans, from what I remember, do not have magical skills.  The Witch-king was already a Ringwraith at the time he gained the title ... according to Wikipedia, the Council of the Wise apparently thought the Necromancer was one of the Nazgul.  And is the Witch-King actually capable of magic use?  I don't recall any use of magic by him, and his Wiki article doesn't mention any - the entry on "Nazgul" says he practices black sorcery and uses it to breach Minas Tirith, but I thought that was Grond .... I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm just saying that I don't recall humans being magically gifted in LotR, which is staggeringly low-magic to begin with.  A lot of magic that goes on seems to be of the enchantment variety, both of people and of items, with very little or none of the flashy sort.
#9 Novacat Sep 11, 2009 16:23:19	It's a popular misconception that the Istari were the only wizard-types in the LotR world, but really, anyone with a functioning forebrain who thought about it for thirty seconds would see that it's completely wrong. The Witch-King of Angmar? Hello? Also the Mouth of Sauron is human and explicitly described as a sorcerer, and the Necromancer was doing evil things near Mirkwood for years under that name before Gandalf was motivated to poke him to see if he was Sauron. Nobody leapt to the conclusion that the Necromancer had to be a rogue Istari or Sauron just because he was an evil magician in a tower. DnD fetishises the books as the source of a wizard's power, which is in keeping with plenty of other fantasy that reifies the metaphor of knowledge being power, but there's nothing in LotR that clearly indicates that book learning is the source of supernatural power in that setting as far as I'm aware. Aragorn has power because he's a King, Luthien can sing monsters and gods to sleep because she's just that awesome, Gandalf and Sauron are angels, but nobody ever learned a spell out of a book as far as I can tell. So a DnD wizard with a spellbook is to some extent just a bad fit for a LotR homage. Offhand I'd make Gandalf an Invoker|Bard. He does a certain amount of dramatic light-shooting and intimidating, and LotR characters seem to be able to harm and repel evil opponents by yelling "Elbereth Gilthoniel" and whatnot which fits in with the Bard at-wills that hurl damaging abuse. Witches, necromancers and sorcerers ≠ wizards. Certainly, not everyone who uses magic is a wizard. The wizards proper of Middle Earth were an exclusive group. Humans could not become wizards, any more than wizards could become human. To the OP, you're not likely to find a satisfying fit for a LotR wizard in D&D. The assumptions of the system simply aren't compatible with a Tolkien universe. D&D is action-hero, Michael Bay style of combat with flying kicks, explosions, and awesome sounds effects.
#10 heroicserge Sep 11, 2009 23:07:46	Which is why I put "Wizard" in quotes like I did.  The Colored/Named Wizards - the only ones you really hear about - are, to my recollection, all angel-analogues.  I also said that Elves and (IIRC) Dwarves were capable of working magic.  Humans, from what I remember, do not have magical skills.  The Witch-king was already a Ringwraith at the time he gained the title ... according to Wikipedia, the Council of the Wise apparently thought the Necromancer was one of the Nazgul.  And is the Witch-King actually capable of magic use?  I don't recall any use of magic by him, and his Wiki article doesn't mention any - the entry on "Nazgul" says he practices black sorcery and uses it to breach Minas Tirith, but I thought that was Grond .... I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm just saying that I don't recall humans being magically gifted in LotR, which is staggeringly low-magic to begin with.  A lot of magic that goes on seems to be of the enchantment variety, both of people and of items, with very little or none of the flashy sort. I'd call Aragorn's healing of Frodo at Weathertop to be as close to DnD magic as anything in the setting, and the Mouth of Sauron is explicitly human and explicitly a "great sorcerer" (whatever that means in the LotR setting). Witches, necromancers and sorcerers ≠ wizards. Certainly, not everyone who uses magic is a wizard. The wizards proper of Middle Earth were an exclusive group. Humans could not become wizards, any more than wizards could become human. It's simply not clear from the text what people thought the difference was between a witch, a sorcerer and a wizard, let alone what the real difference was. The Necromancer. the Witch-King and Galadriel are all referred to as sorcerers, the Palantir is referred to by Gimli as an "accursed stone of wizardry", Isengard's stone are said authorially to have some wizardry in them older than Saruman's and so on. It looks to me that the terms were used more or less interchangeably with the exception that "wizard" could also be used to refer specifically to the Istari. The problem with figuring out the LotR magic system is that it's never explained, and all too often there are multiple agencies involved in any given act. We just don't know how much of what Gandalf does is Gandalf, how much is his ring, how much is his staff and how much is some kind of "wizardry" or "sorcery" that a human like the Mouth of Sauron could in theory duplicate without staff, ring or angelic background.
#11 calronmoonflower Sep 12, 2009 2:26:00	Honestly the Ritual Caster feat would likely be enough. Examples of the LotR "Wizards" magic. fire works, flaming pine cones (no joke), arcane lock, forging a ring, magic smoke puffs, boosting the spell that cause the surge in the river, and the magic voice, light. While not Gandalf alone in these examples that is about it.
#12 Novacat Sep 12, 2009 2:50:11	Honestly the Ritual Caster feat would likely be enough. Examples of the LotR "Wizards" magic. fire works, flaming pine cones (no joke), arcane lock, forging a ring, magic smoke puffs, boosting the spell that cause the surge in the river, and the magic voice, light. While not Gandalf alone in these examples that is about it. Don't forget Radagast's shapeshifting, and Gandalf's ability to speak with animals.