Bluntly spoken, my DM is kindof an idiot. Don't get me wrong, he's an alright guy, and we have productive gaming sessions every Thursday. I have a lot of fun, and I am extremely thankful to him for volunteering to give me a chance to play a PC. However, he tends to make poor calls, and gives off an air of a "DM vs PC's" attitude. He's not trying to kill us or TPK, but he does seem to place too much emphasis on making us suffer, and seems to refuse to allow us to gain a tactical advantage. A few examples:
- No matter what, when a door is opened the monsters/npc inside the room are aware. It does not matter if my stealthy character attempts his very best to get just a glance at what we might face. The monsters immediately know we are there, and seemingly stand in tactical positions all day staring at a door, waiting for us to come through it. When we tried to set up an ambush, our choices of actions were disallowed, and he said "no, you guys did this and you're standing right here." Pretty lame, really.
- Attempting anything other than full combat is a waste of time. So far, every attempt that I have made to get through an encounter peacefully has been met harshly with "that's not possible, roll initiative." I get that combat is a big part of DnD, but why on earth should I have 2 ranks in diplomacy if I won't even be allowed to use it?
- Apparently, every monster in DnD knows how to move to avoid AoO's. If he happens to make an action that calls for an AoO, he immediately takes it back and removes all the monsters to avoid it (as if one AoO is going to ruin the game).
Am I just being too uptight, or are these kinds of things bad form in anybody else's mind? They tally up to just be mildly annoying, not game breakingly frustrating. I'm not even close to being upset about it, but one player in the group is.
Then there's this other terrible decision he made, that I recommend to all reading this you NEVER partake in. We ran an extra session this past Tuesday (we game Thursdays) and I left at the end. The DM and other two PC's hung out for a while afterward and had a few beers. The paladin and DM were talking about something, out of which rose a challenge from the DM. The party cleric and paladin agreed to bet 500 gold pieces each on an encounter, which if they won would give us enough experience to level up (about 310 xp) and some treasure. They would control my character (an arcane trickster). The DM brought out a young black dragon, CR 5, for our level 3's to fight. The DM made a few tactical errors (he landed the dragon next to the pally to breathe, and the pally crit on a smite evil and hit hard with his AoO), and the dragon was near to death. At this time he picked up all the pieces and said "nope this encounter is over" and refused to abide by his "bet."
Obviously, I chastised the cleric player away from session for even agreeing to engage in this bet. It was a terrible idea from the beginning, and the DM was a fool for thinking he could walk all over our characters with a CR 5, even if it was a dragon. He was rather jerkish, telling the PC's that they were acting like babies for complaining about his backing out from the bet. I chalk up his jerkish attitude to the alcohol he drank, because he gets arrogant and pompous when he drinks.
I find myself having to explain a lot of the game to him. He doesn't even know how to calculate a spell DC. He didn't know what spell resistance meant before I explained it while we fought a BBEG. The poor guy actually believes that a fighter is really poweful, and that a wizard evoker is a really awesome build. I don't knock his preferences in characters when he talks about it, though, so don't go there. ;)
In closing, I suppose this is mostly just a rant, but any advice would be appreciated. I imagine sometime soon we'll have a serious talk with him about the tactical issues, but the poor decision making is more a personal issue that we cannot really talk over with him. I am curious to see what everybody else has to say, even if it's just "yeah!!! I had a DM like that!" That would actually be great, cuz I wouldn't feel so stuck.
He hadn't read the description for any spells, other than a few things like fireball, and he didn't check them when players picked them. At one point our cleric tried to use make whole to fix our ship, because it crashed onto some rocks. The DM decided then that they were "cursed" rocks, so the whole couldn't be repaired by magic.
He banned the use of the spell mount, because he said "Even if it's magic, it doesn't make sense for something to just appear" although he didn't mind the summon monster spells.
Later on he made almost everywhere we went have an antimagic field that was impossible to overcome but didn't effect items, so my sorcerer was just a really weak guy with a crossbow and a weasel.
Eventually one of the players quit because he didn't like the way the DM was running the game, and I think he (the DM) finally got the idea. Now he any magic that's in the PHB, and is generally more acceptive of what our characters can do.
I'm definitely not saying you or someone in your group should quit, I'd suggest just talking to him with all of the other players.
Hope this helps
My DM used to have a similar problem where he tried to make all combat almost lethal, and talking never worked. His problem wasn't with skills being used however, it was spells.
He hadn't read the description for any spells, other than a few things like fireball, and he didn't check them when players picked them. At one point our cleric tried to use make whole to fix our ship, because it crashed onto some rocks. The DM decided then that they were "cursed" rocks, so the whole couldn't be repaired by magic.
He banned the use of the spell mount, because he said "Even if it's magic, it doesn't make sense for something to just appear" although he didn't mind the summon monster spells.
Later on he made almost everywhere we went have an antimagic field that was impossible to overcome but didn't effect items, so my sorcerer was just a really weak guy with a crossbow and a weasel.
Eventually one of the players quit because he didn't like the way the DM was running the game, and I think he (the DM) finally got the idea. Now he any magic that's in the PHB, and is generally more acceptive of what our characters can do.
I'm definitely not saying you or someone in your group should quit, I'd suggest just talking to him with all of the other players.
Hope this helps
Well, at least I know my problem is fairly common.
We will probably eventually have a little chat with him about it all. This isn't something I'm remotely close to quitting the group over, since all of us, including the DM, are good enough friends that we can work through the adversity a little better.
One thing that worries me about the impending conversation is that this guy is younger than we are, and tends to carry that air of arrogance that he is always right.
I know one thing for sure, it's going to be a real shocker to him when my character starts planar binding rituals. I intend to be powerful, and his version of powerful doesn't line up with mine, exactly (hence the reference to the evoker build). I will generate my OWN encounters, if I have to, to expand my options as far as transmutations go.
Sounds like your DM shouldn't drink on game nights...
Heh, very true. He probably shouldn't drink at all. I don't know him well beyond the gaming session, but those that do know him say that he becomes a total jerk when under the influence.
Ha, my players loved it the drunker I got... as I became very generous...
I am slotted to run the next campaign, and this will probably be my Achilles Heel as well.
However, in the past, I've had some pretty terrible DMs.
There was the Storyteller, who basically told us what our characters did. We also couldn't die, as we discovered, because it would hurt the plot. The first session started with about an hour of narration.
There was the Simulationist, who kept introducing house-rule after house-rule to try to increase the "realism" of the game, eventually making it far more complicated, terribly unbalanced, and more deadly, but no more realistic, and no more fun. His list of banned material was huge, including four classes from the PHB, all of psionics, most of Tome of Battle, all of Tome of Magic, and anything that was cool without being completely believable. Anything that was arcane, spellcasting magic was perfectly acceptable, because it's magic ("A wizard did it" syndrome), but no one besides traditional casters got any fun toys.
I don't drink, and no one I play with drinks either, so I'm pretty safe in that regard. Also, I'm fortunate to have found a gaming group of 7 people, including myself, who are just there for the laid-back fun of fantasy gaming. We're all great roleplayers, and our games are always fun, even if the campaign gets a little slow.
We all drink, but not extensively on game night usually. It is, however, one of my few off nights where I get to kick back and enjoy myself with some friends. It works out, these issues notwithstanding.
I wouldn't call us extensive roleplayers, as our sessions are fairly mechanical in nature. I would like it if we could do more roleplaying, but it's hard to do with our current DM because he's so ignorant to the various uses of skills and spells.
If ya'll can tell, I'm pretty much sitting in an office waiting for it to burn down, so I'm essentially watching this thread for now.
well, except for the dwarf in-game, but that's kinda mandatory.
:D
If he fired me, i'd put up an ad to run my own game.
I usually DM anyway, and the people I game with prefer me (and a few select others) as DMs, simply because we have the experience...but differing styles, so it's a nice change-up sometimes.
Backing out of a bet, etc, is bad mojo. sounds like he's got DM vs players mentality and he's got a really big competitive streak.
You might try something like "We are in the dungeon. We knock politely on the door."
See what he does.
When they answer the door, say "We are collecting for girl scouts."
something to break his paradigm, because he needs to loosen up a bit.
Maybe tell him that instead.
Definitely if you have all these skills he sin't using, it's a problem.
In the end, you can vote yourself out, or start a different game.
I'm also definitely opposed to alcohol at the game table. Too many times, I've seen people start fights, and such, when i was in my young 20's, decades ago. So much so that around age 25, I banned alcohol in any group I DM, and won't join if people are drinking in a prospective group.
Me: "You move there?"
Him:"Yes, they made a double move action."
Me: "Okay, make they make reflex saves for ending their turn in my grease spell."
Him: "I thought the grease was gone!!!"
Me: "I'm a 3rd level wizard now, it lasts for three rounds."
Him: "Okay well then they don't do that, they go over here instead" :gnolls surround cleric instead of caster:
Me: "That's ********."
Him: "What do you mean? I'm the DM."
Me: "Yeah but you do that crap all the time. It gets really old."
Him: "Well you guys are breezing through this encounter anyway."
...............
I'm not sure what he considers a "breeze," whether it's not having to go nova, or whether it's being properly challenged. The encounter was a turning out about the way you'd expect a PC's vs. 30 minions encounter to go. It was a mass slaughter. We did take some damage and use up a few resources (cleric had cast Bull's Strength x 2, Shield of Faith x 2, I used a Shield spell, the cleric spent a few wand charges and I drank a cure light).
I think it's going to be tough explaining to him that we didn't "breeze" through, it was a suitable challenge for the party. We just happened to be buffed to the teeth, and the monsters were really weak but in large numbers.
I suppose I may interject a week very soon where I run the game, and let him be a PC. The other players are none too excited to be forced to start over at level 1, but I'm considering making them level 5, just to keep them happy. Plus, I'm more looking forward to getting these guys to high level in my campaign and playing with my epic level sources than anything.
The DM and PCs are supposed to work together to tell a story, not work against each other.
Sounds a lot like DM vs PC syndrome.
The DM and PCs are supposed to work together to tell a story, not work against each other.
I know this, unfortunately, I'm not quite sure how to get it through this guy's head. Maybe a little bit of off-the-wall roleplay is in order.
I would get a group concensus that when moving a minature, you assume a rule of chess: If you remove your hand from the piece, your move cannot be recinded.
You could also not mention the affect of the DM's moves until absolutely necessary. Don't give him the heads-up of what will happen if he moves to (or through) a particular space before you need to. That way, if he wants to change, it would be a hassle to back track (and, technically, his turn would be over).
Also, begin to change your characters moves based on what will happen. Begin saying, "Well, I don't want to do that then." etc. Give him a taste of his own medicine. I bet the double-standard rears its ugly head.
Lastly, perhaps you could run your own game.
Some of my comments might seem like petty approaches to the problem, but nothing hits home like perspective.
Don't get discouraged, I've been playing for almost 20 years, and we still have disagreements ("What do you mean my character's surprised, I just saw it before I Dimension Doored down there!"- this happened last Friday, btw... after the player rolled a one on a spot check after Dim. Dooring- not an autofail, but not good enough.
).It sounds like you are still having fun (even though you disagree with some of the things the DM does) which is a good sign. However you choose to handle this, remember, it's just a game!
Then I explain that if they just want to win everything and have no consequences, then we can play that way... but as they saw, it sucks.
FWIW, I don't want to just win everything (although I don't think you meant this comment in my direction, just in response to another post). I DO want to play DnD, though, and not DnD Miniatures.
I failed to mention that at the beginning of the chain of encounters that opened this encounter the DM said this "Which one of you has the lowest AC? Ah, well it looks like they're shooting at [insert my name]." My immediate response was "that's metagaming, it's cheap, and it's wrong."
It would have got pretty ugly if he hadn't retracted his decision to shoot at me, simply because my armor class and hit points are lower than the other two.
This started in my game...once.
Then, I just started telling the PC's that they accopmplish whatever they do, and have to make no rolls. A combat starts, I don't even roll for initiative, just tell the PC's that they won...
Yeah, it is crazy... and the players were going..."huh?...", "what the..."
Then I explain that if they just want to win everything and have no consequences, then we can play that way... but as they saw, it sucks.
So, attitudes quickly changed and I have had no problems since...
When I am playing a PC and we are getting started on what I know is gonna be a hairy fight I routinely tell my DM that he knows we are gonna win and he should just cut to the end and give us XP. I have even offered up to 2 PC deaths at times just to make it worth his while. He has yet to take me up on the offer.
I think next time I'm gonna make a Diplomacy check and convince the opposing force to turn on their leader, then fight one another until only one remains. That person will then become my cohort. My pally has a pretty good Diplomacy base, it should work.
No. I wasn't trying to be offensive or insult anyone... I was just telling about one of our sessions...
But your DM sounds like a character from Tales of Douchebaggery
I know what you meant
FWIW he's not a half bad guy normally. I just think he's a little inexperienced DM-wise.
NEWS FLASH!!!
My DM told our cleric and paladin that he thinks that Defensively Casting at 15 + spell level DC to avoid AoO's is overpowered.
FWIW?
For What It's Worth
NEWS FLASH!!!
My DM told our cleric and paladin that he thinks that Defensively Casting at 15 + spell level DC to avoid AoO's is overpowered.
Question: Did he play or DM in 1e or 2e? 'Cause in those editions you couldn't avoid being attacked during casting (though of course AoOs and Concentration didn't exist) and any damage whatsoever disrupted your spell, no save. That may be where he's coming from.
Question: Did he play or DM in 1e or 2e? 'Cause in those editions you couldn't avoid being attacked during casting (though of course AoOs and Concentration didn't exist) and any damage whatsoever disrupted your spell, no save. That may be where he's coming from.
Answer: Nope. 3.5 all the way.
well, another session, another week :D we ran an extra session last night, and everything went fairly smoothly. I do regret a bit of an outburst I had where the DM moved the monsters into a square occupied by a grease spell and took back the move when he found out the grease was still there. The exchange went a little like this:
Me: "You move there?"
Him:"Yes, they made a double move action."
Me: "Okay, make they make reflex saves for ending their turn in my grease spell."
Him: "I thought the grease was gone!!!"
Me: "I'm a 3rd level wizard now, it lasts for three rounds."
Him: "Okay well then they don't do that, they go over here instead" :gnolls surround cleric instead of caster:
Me: "That's ********."
Him: "What do you mean? I'm the DM."
Me: "Yeah but you do that crap all the time. It gets really old."
Him: "Well you guys are breezing through this encounter anyway."
...............
I'm not sure what he considers a "breeze," whether it's not having to go nova, or whether it's being properly challenged. The encounter was a turning out about the way you'd expect a PC's vs. 30 minions encounter to go. It was a mass slaughter. We did take some damage and use up a few resources (cleric had cast Bull's Strength x 2, Shield of Faith x 2, I used a Shield spell, the cleric spent a few wand charges and I drank a cure light).
I think it's going to be tough explaining to him that we didn't "breeze" through, it was a suitable challenge for the party. We just happened to be buffed to the teeth, and the monsters were really weak but in large numbers.
I suppose I may interject a week very soon where I run the game, and let him be a PC. The other players are none too excited to be forced to start over at level 1, but I'm considering making them level 5, just to keep them happy. Plus, I'm more looking forward to getting these guys to high level in my campaign and playing with my epic level sources than anything.
Definitely bad call.
Several months ago our party was in an arena-type combat fighting for control of a special magic tower. It would be our second tower. Combatants are free to set up any special rules or not. Break a rule, and you are killed instantly by The Judge. For this battle, the only rules were 1) everyone was permitted to have one magical/psionic buff spell before combat begins and 2) no summoning. As the party was winning, one foe wanted to escape. This particular foe was from a group we've fought before that are fond of elementals. He called for an air elemental to fly him away. I called the DM on the summoning violation. He had forgotten. Judge killed bad guy, instantly. We got XP for winning the combat anyway, but we really hated these guys and wanted no one left alive. :D
Answer: Nope. 3.5 all the way.
Statement: Then I have no idea where he'd be getting that idea from. I suppose a rogue Tumbling to avoid AoOs is also overpowered?
Really? A diplomacy check to make the Bad Guy Leader turn on his men? and for them to fight each other?
Actually, I would try to get the men turn on the BBEG, they would prolly have less chance to beat my roll. But I doubt he would let that slide either.
It's all about having options. ;)
Statement: Then I have no idea where he'd be getting that idea from. I suppose a rogue Tumbling to avoid AoOs is also overpowered?
of course not ;) i think the main problem stems from fundamental misunderstanding of the rules (or, actually, fundamental ignorance).
I don't think that specific incident, taken by itself, is really a terrible thing. I mean, I DM, and it's sometimes hard to keep track of everything that the monsters do, all their powers and spell effects that are ongoing, all the spells the PCs have used and where they are if they are ongoing effects and how long each one lasts and so on.
My players will politely remind me on the occasion that I make a mistake like this, and often I will have the monster do something else. I do this, and my players don't really mind, because it's the monster that is acting on it's own intelligence. The gnoll would have know the grease was there, would have been able to see it there, and if the grease would have put it in a dangerous position, it probably would not have moved there.
Now, if he does this constantly to sort of negate the magic powers you guys use, which it sounds like he might, well that's terrible and I sympathize. You guys are the heroes, and should feel as such. I think we've all had bad gaming experiences where things like that happen, and our characters feel cheated or useless.
Just wanted to say that though - if he made a mistake, give him some leniency. DMing can be tough, especially if he's new to it. Hopefully you can kindly show him the ropes, give him some tips. Setting a limit on alcohol consumed is something I did in an old game I ran. It was only one guy who was a problem, getting ridiculous and ruining everyone's fun. I just put the blanket rule in order to not single him out, but he still got the message and it hasn't been a problem since.
I don't actually think it was "horrible." It's just a pattern I see a LOT, and it's annoying a little to have it happen every other encounter, maybe more.
I mean, doing it all the time would be insanely frustrating from a players point of view though.
Also, that Defensive Casting thing, also insane. He seems to have a world in his mind that is no fun to play in.
Also, that Defensive Casting thing, also insane. He seems to have a world in his mind that is no fun to play in.
The more I think about it, I think part of this opinion of his stems from his love of fighters. He's beginning to see the real power of spells, and he doesn't seem to like it. I won't lie, I have an optimized spell list from the few spells I have available (rogue2/wiz3, on the way to arcane trickster). However, he really loves the fighter class, enough to claim and maintain that they and all the other classes have equal power.
I'm not sure I mentioned it anywhere in this post, but in this same encounter I got shot by arrows through a wall.
We were hiding behind it to heal up from a previous encounter and the 30 or so monsters shot at us through the wall. He applied concealment when it should have been total cover. yeah, just leave his group and DM yourself.
Nah, I'm having fun with it, regardless of the errors and interesting discussions that occur.
So last night (we play Thursdays) we had another session. We picked up a cursed, evil magic helm that grants +2 profane to-hit, feat: Improved Critical (any weapon), which also soaks any XP earned by the wearer, progressing the helm in the fighter class instead of the user in their chosen class. Our cleric wanted to try to bluff somebody into buying the helm. DM said no way. I actually agreed with him, as anybody that has the change to buy a priceless item will have the funds to pay to have it identified beforehand, and will definitely not fall for the bluff. The cleric player got pretty ticked off and animated though!!!!
There was also a glowing rune-covered chest, double trapped and "locked." No success with the picks, so I memorized knock the next day and tried that. Failed to knock. Reasoning? The lock is broken and thus unopenable.
PS - i hate prewritten adventures
I'm doing a decent job of slipping the rules that my DM doesn't know into the game via casual game conversation, so things are progressing rather well I believe. I've been doing things like saying "hey, I was just looking at the concentration skill and it actually says [insert complicated stuff here]." He appreciates it a lot.
I think I actually feel SORRY for him now....my clerical buddy took the Leadership feat at level 6, and is walking around with a level 5 druid cohort with an ape for an animal companion.
There was also a glowing rune-covered chest, double trapped and "locked." No success with the picks, so I memorized knock the next day and tried that. Failed to knock. Reasoning? The lock is broken and thus unopenable.
PS - i hate prewritten adventures
Did anyone try bashing the chest (once traps were removed, of course!)
Did anyone try bashing the chest (once traps were removed, of course!)
i imagine it would have been unbreakable, but no, nobody did that.
the DM basically admitted to us that it was a ruse with the double trap, and basically empty.