A spec mount is always a spec mount right? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

A spec mount is always a spec mount right?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
frosthammer
Mar 06, 2007 13:10:00 Ok, so a special mount gets bonuses to natural armor and strength. That's cool. If the mount shapeshifts/polymorphs/somehow assumes the shape of another creature, does it still get those bonuses?

Let's say your special mount changed into a Bugbear, who have a Natural Armor of +3. If you're a 5th level paladin, does that mean the bugbear now has a total of +7 natural armor (and 1 mroe strength than normal)?

In other words, does the bonuses for being a special mount apply to whatever form the mount takes?
#2
thubby
Mar 06, 2007 13:23:06 thats a very good question... i dont know.
i'd imagine that the mount would keep its abilities, as it is still yours.
#3
archangel_tyrael
Mar 06, 2007 13:33:06 lol, a paladin riding a Bugbear...that's one of the most funny mental images my brain has ever made...

I would say no, it doesn't keep those bonuses. I say this because the only spell I can think of that changes creatures is Baleful Polymorph--and that spell only changes creatures into small or smaller animals. Also:

With those exceptions, the target’s normal game statistics are replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features.

So I say no, but it's still a really funny thought.

Edit: I guess that Polymorph Any Object would work, too, though I don't know how long it would last.
#4
frosthammer
Mar 06, 2007 13:41:49 Actually, my mount has the "Alternate Form" special ability, so it's not being baleful polymorphed...
#5
matthew77
Mar 06, 2007 13:45:56 Bonuses are to the base form.

If you have +4 natural armor because you are a special mount and you use alternate form to turn into something with +2 natural armor, you end up with only the +2, not +4 or +6.
#6
frosthammer
Mar 06, 2007 13:57:16 Do you know which page it is from the PHB or DMG or MM?
#7
archangel_tyrael
Mar 06, 2007 14:32:35 I think I can safely guess from a Juvenile Bronze Dragon, a Juvenile Silver Dragon, or a very young Gold Dragon? (since I don't think you'll be riding your Phasm to church every Sunday)
#8
frosthammer
Mar 06, 2007 14:35:55 Very young Silver Dragon actually.
#9
archangel_tyrael
Mar 06, 2007 14:44:04 Unless you and all of your stuff weighs less than 114 pounds, the dragon can't fly with you on it. Also, I'm not sure if you can even use a medium-sized creature as a mount. I'll need to do more research on that.

Note: If you're a halfling paladin, please ignore most of this post. I'm sure you meet the weight requirements if you're a halfling.

Edit: Changed the math for carrying capacity. Forgot about the +1 Strength from paladin level.
#10
frosthammer
Mar 06, 2007 14:55:49 We have the weight thing worked out, mainly due to the how the Dm is giving me this mount (paladin mounts are pretty uber in this campaign). Plus, there's this custom feat we're using.

Massive
Prerequesites: Dragon, HD 1st
Benefit: The dragon grew up faster than most. As a Very Young dragon, it is already Large size (as if it were Juvenile). The size change results in the following stat modifications: +8 str, -2 dex, +4 con, -1 to hit and to AC, and +2 natural armor when compared to typical Very Young dragons. However, this dragon's flight manueverability drops by one category (to a minimum of Clumsy).

Jozanapolis, Male Very Young Silver Dragon (CR ??)
LG Large Dragon (Cold)
Init -1 Senses blindsense 60ft, Darkvision 120ft, Low-light vision, Listen +17, Spot +17
Languages Common, Draconic, Bonus Language, Bonus Language
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– –––––––
AC 27, touch 8, flat-footed 23
(-1 Size, -1 Dex, 15 Natural) (11 from being a Large dragon. 4 from being a Special Mount)
hp 126 (12d12+48)
Resist Cold 50, Acid 50, Sleep 10, Paralysis 10
Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +10
Weakness vulnerable to fire
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– –––––––
Speed 40 ft (8 squares); fly 150 ft (clumsy).
Melee Bite +18 (1d8+7), 2 claws +13 each (1d6+3), and 2 wings +13 each (1d4+3)
Space 10ft; Reach 5ft (10 with bite).
Base Atk +12; Grp +23
Atk Options Power Attack; Dive Charge (2x damage on a dive with piercing weapon)
Special Actions Breath Weapon
Combat Gear 4 potions of cure serious wounds
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– –––––––
Abilities Str 24, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14
SQ frightful presence; Improved Evasion, Empathic Link, Share Spells
Feats Massive, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack/Flyby Attack/Multiattack (depending on DM's ruling).
Skills [Total (base)] Bluff +17 (+15), Diplomacy +23 (+15), Disguise +19 (+15), Jump +22 (+15), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +7 (+5), Listen +17 (+15), Sense Motive +17 (+15), Spot +17 (+15), Use Magic Device +12 (+10)
Possessions , Heward's Handy haversack, Hat of Disguise, Mwk Longspear(for use when in humanoid form), Mithril chain barding (given to him as a gift from his Paladin), Mithril chain shirt (for humanoid form)
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– –––––––
Alternate Form (Su) 3/day, can change into any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action.
Breath Weapon (Su) 30ft cone, once every 1d4 rounds. Cold breath - 4d8 cold, Reflex DC 20 half. Paralyzing breath - Paralyzed for 1d6+2 rounds, Fortitude DC 20 negates.
Cloudwalking (Su) Tread on clouds or fog as though on solid ground; functions continuously but can be negated or resumed at will.

But the dragon's stats while in true form isn't what I'm worried about at the moment. Where in the rulebooks does it say the special mount bonuses only apply to the original form?
#11
archangel_tyrael
Mar 06, 2007 15:08:02 lol, why even play the paladin? I'd play the dragon!!

Honestly I don't think it says anywhere about mounts other than the standard celestial mount that paladins get. It might give you more information where you found the feat to get a non-standard mount, that's where I'd look.

Note: Why didn't you just use the stats for a Juvenile Silver Dragon? Except for the breath weapon damage and number of feats, that's pretty much what this is...
#12
frosthammer
Mar 06, 2007 15:16:28 Because the Dm wanted me to waste one of the mount's feats to become big enough to carry me?

Besides, a Juvenile Silver Dragon would be even more powerful, since I'd still have to add on the Special mount bonuses on top of it, like I did with Jozanopolis. Btw, what CR do you think my mount is?
#13
archangel_tyrael
Mar 06, 2007 15:48:22 Well, let's compare it to the other Silver Dragon ages...

12 Hit Dice_________Young
23 Armor Class______Young-Juvenile
27 AC with Paladin___Young Adult

12 Fort____________Young-Juvenile
7 Ref______________Very Young
10 Will_____________Very Young-Young

BAB/Grapple________Young-Juvenile
4d8 Breath Weapon__Very Young

I suppose when you average all of those together you get a creature from 8-9 CR. I would probably also up it by AT LEAST 1 because your paladin gives it Improved Evasion, which is highly useful when dodging the +50% damage from fireballs that it would take. So...CR 9.

I saw you wrote Frightful Presence under Special Qualities. Did your house rule feat give it FP earlier too? Otherwise it doesn't get it until Young Adult age.
#14
frosthammer
Mar 06, 2007 16:20:43 The 27 is due to it wearing barding. Normally it'd only have 23.

Oops, I didn't know there is a age restriction for Frightful presence.

Do you think this mount will make encounters too easy? His diplomacy skill alone is pretty good.
#15
archangel_tyrael
Mar 06, 2007 16:59:28 I think that eventually you'll start role-playing the dragon more than your character. I mean, how can your paladin compete with flying, 24 str, 19 Con, and probably 3x his hit points? Plus 6+intelligence modifier skill points, four attacks compared to your paladin's one, and all good saves? The dragon's abilities will start to overshadow your character early on.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that your dragon is an ECL 16 character (12 HD +4 LA) with a level 5 rider.

If you really want to go the special mount route, I'd suggest talking with your DM about getting the Leadership feat at level 6 and getting a Silver Dragon as your cohort. I'd probably houserule that your advanced riding techniques is what gives the bonuses to your mount, and I'd let you put your mount bonuses on the dragon.

Those are my two coppers, you should--of course--do whatever you and your DM have agreed upon and whatever helps you have the most fun with D&D.
#16
frosthammer
Mar 06, 2007 17:04:33 I'll be roleplaying them both. I basically see my dragon as an equal (above a cohort), but I didn't have to take Leadership, and the dragon doesn't get any exp. I plan to have them fall in love over the 14 levels or so (I'm a Ranger1/Paladin5. Planning on going into Wild Plains Outriders and Cavalier). This game will likely go epic eventually.
#17
matthew77
Mar 06, 2007 21:52:01 Woah.. back up. You are only level 6 Character and your DM gave you a very young Silver Dragon as mount??!

So basically, instead of it being your mount, you're it's familliar?

Just for reference, the Draconomicon on page 139 lists a Very Young Silver dragon as an appropriate mount for a level 14 Paladin.

I suggest you and your DM rethink this plan.

Either wait until higher levels for the Dragon to serve you as a mount, or have it be significantly less powerful as a companion to a level 6 character. Are you the only character in the party or something? Solo adventures can be more flexible with power balance, but I wouldn't want to be the useless level 6 sidekick in the party dominated by you and your mount.
#18
frosthammer
Mar 06, 2007 23:10:53 The other people can control golem armies, or are mind-flayer monk/psion gestalts...I'm hardly the only one who has strange abilities for being a level 6.

The party is kind of balanced. I just wonder what the DM will throw at us. It worries me a bit to be honest.
#19
matthew77
Mar 07, 2007 12:47:27
The other people can control golem armies, or are mind-flayer monk/psion gestalts.

In this case you are so far off RAW, why bother with checking the rules on something as petty as +1 str and +4 natural armor?

Just have the DM keep making up houserules like he has been already.
#20
frosthammer
Mar 07, 2007 13:15:45 Because gestalts is a legitimate option? It's just that typically either eveyrone is a gestalt or no one is. Golem creation is vastly cheaper in some areas, os it's much easier to raise an army of golem. The DM is giving us bonuses depending on which geographical region our character is from.

Just because he's giving us bonuses in one aspect doesn't mean he'll ignore RAW for everything. Besides. I'm interested in the official ruling on this issue.
#21
phaedrusxy
Apr 03, 2008 14:47:54 It's a class feature. The thing is still your special mount when it changes forms, so it still gets the benefits of your class feature. I don't see any ambiguity in the rules here at all.
#22
wonlee76
Apr 03, 2008 15:21:00 Here's the relevant description of Alternate Form:

Alternate Form (Su): A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.

The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.

I would say the benefits from being a paladin's mount = special qualities of its orginal form. I don't think "special qualities" is ever defined so there's room to argue one way or another.

But that's just my opinion of course.
#23
crimsondeath
Apr 03, 2008 16:55:36 "Special qualities" are, as I understand, those special abilities (as defined in the glossary of the Monster Manual) that aren't special attacks. Looking at the Paladin's Mount chart, I'd guess everything but "Command creatures of its kind" would fall under special qualities (although the Strength adjustment and natural armor adjustment might be overridden by shapechanging magic).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 frosthammer Mar 06, 2007 13:10:00	Ok, so a special mount gets bonuses to natural armor and strength. That's cool. If the mount shapeshifts/polymorphs/somehow assumes the shape of another creature, does it still get those bonuses? Let's say your special mount changed into a Bugbear, who have a Natural Armor of +3. If you're a 5th level paladin, does that mean the bugbear now has a total of +7 natural armor (and 1 mroe strength than normal)? In other words, does the bonuses for being a special mount apply to whatever form the mount takes?
#2 thubby Mar 06, 2007 13:23:06	thats a very good question... i dont know. i'd imagine that the mount would keep its abilities, as it is still yours.
#3 archangel_tyrael Mar 06, 2007 13:33:06	lol, a paladin riding a Bugbear...that's one of the most funny mental images my brain has ever made... I would say no, it doesn't keep those bonuses. I say this because the only spell I can think of that changes creatures is Baleful Polymorph--and that spell only changes creatures into small or smaller animals. Also: With those exceptions, the target’s normal game statistics are replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features. So I say no, but it's still a really funny thought. Edit: I guess that Polymorph Any Object would work, too, though I don't know how long it would last.
#4 frosthammer Mar 06, 2007 13:41:49	Actually, my mount has the "Alternate Form" special ability, so it's not being baleful polymorphed...
#5 matthew77 Mar 06, 2007 13:45:56	Bonuses are to the base form. If you have +4 natural armor because you are a special mount and you use alternate form to turn into something with +2 natural armor, you end up with only the +2, not +4 or +6.
#6 frosthammer Mar 06, 2007 13:57:16	Do you know which page it is from the PHB or DMG or MM?
#7 archangel_tyrael Mar 06, 2007 14:32:35	I think I can safely guess from a Juvenile Bronze Dragon, a Juvenile Silver Dragon, or a very young Gold Dragon? (since I don't think you'll be riding your Phasm to church every Sunday)
#8 frosthammer Mar 06, 2007 14:35:55	Very young Silver Dragon actually.
#9 archangel_tyrael Mar 06, 2007 14:44:04	Unless you and all of your stuff weighs less than 114 pounds, the dragon can't fly with you on it. Also, I'm not sure if you can even use a medium-sized creature as a mount. I'll need to do more research on that. Note: If you're a halfling paladin, please ignore most of this post. I'm sure you meet the weight requirements if you're a halfling. Edit: Changed the math for carrying capacity. Forgot about the +1 Strength from paladin level.
#10 frosthammer Mar 06, 2007 14:55:49	We have the weight thing worked out, mainly due to the how the Dm is giving me this mount (paladin mounts are pretty uber in this campaign). Plus, there's this custom feat we're using. Massive Prerequesites: Dragon, HD 1st Benefit: The dragon grew up faster than most. As a Very Young dragon, it is already Large size (as if it were Juvenile). The size change results in the following stat modifications: +8 str, -2 dex, +4 con, -1 to hit and to AC, and +2 natural armor when compared to typical Very Young dragons. However, this dragon's flight manueverability drops by one category (to a minimum of Clumsy). Jozanapolis, Male Very Young Silver Dragon (CR ??) LG Large Dragon (Cold) Init -1 Senses blindsense 60ft, Darkvision 120ft, Low-light vision, Listen +17, Spot +17 Languages Common, Draconic, Bonus Language, Bonus Language –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ––––––– AC 27, touch 8, flat-footed 23 (-1 Size, -1 Dex, 15 Natural) (11 from being a Large dragon. 4 from being a Special Mount) hp 126 (12d12+48) Resist Cold 50, Acid 50, Sleep 10, Paralysis 10 Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +10 Weakness vulnerable to fire –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ––––––– Speed 40 ft (8 squares); fly 150 ft (clumsy). Melee Bite +18 (1d8+7), 2 claws +13 each (1d6+3), and 2 wings +13 each (1d4+3) Space 10ft; Reach 5ft (10 with bite). Base Atk +12; Grp +23 Atk Options Power Attack; Dive Charge (2x damage on a dive with piercing weapon) Special Actions Breath Weapon Combat Gear 4 potions of cure serious wounds –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ––––––– Abilities Str 24, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14 SQ frightful presence; Improved Evasion, Empathic Link, Share Spells Feats Massive, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack/Flyby Attack/Multiattack (depending on DM's ruling). Skills [Total (base)] Bluff +17 (+15), Diplomacy +23 (+15), Disguise +19 (+15), Jump +22 (+15), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +7 (+5), Listen +17 (+15), Sense Motive +17 (+15), Spot +17 (+15), Use Magic Device +12 (+10) Possessions , Heward's Handy haversack, Hat of Disguise, Mwk Longspear(for use when in humanoid form), Mithril chain barding (given to him as a gift from his Paladin), Mithril chain shirt (for humanoid form) –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ––––––– Alternate Form (Su) 3/day, can change into any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action. Breath Weapon (Su) 30ft cone, once every 1d4 rounds. Cold breath - 4d8 cold, Reflex DC 20 half. Paralyzing breath - Paralyzed for 1d6+2 rounds, Fortitude DC 20 negates. Cloudwalking (Su) Tread on clouds or fog as though on solid ground; functions continuously but can be negated or resumed at will. But the dragon's stats while in true form isn't what I'm worried about at the moment. Where in the rulebooks does it say the special mount bonuses only apply to the original form?
#11 archangel_tyrael Mar 06, 2007 15:08:02	lol, why even play the paladin? I'd play the dragon!! Honestly I don't think it says anywhere about mounts other than the standard celestial mount that paladins get. It might give you more information where you found the feat to get a non-standard mount, that's where I'd look. Note: Why didn't you just use the stats for a Juvenile Silver Dragon? Except for the breath weapon damage and number of feats, that's pretty much what this is...
#12 frosthammer Mar 06, 2007 15:16:28	Because the Dm wanted me to waste one of the mount's feats to become big enough to carry me? Besides, a Juvenile Silver Dragon would be even more powerful, since I'd still have to add on the Special mount bonuses on top of it, like I did with Jozanopolis. Btw, what CR do you think my mount is?
#13 archangel_tyrael Mar 06, 2007 15:48:22	Well, let's compare it to the other Silver Dragon ages... 12 Hit Dice_________Young 23 Armor Class______Young-Juvenile 27 AC with Paladin___Young Adult 12 Fort____________Young-Juvenile 7 Ref______________Very Young 10 Will_____________Very Young-Young BAB/Grapple________Young-Juvenile 4d8 Breath Weapon__Very Young I suppose when you average all of those together you get a creature from 8-9 CR. I would probably also up it by AT LEAST 1 because your paladin gives it Improved Evasion, which is highly useful when dodging the +50% damage from fireballs that it would take. So...CR 9. I saw you wrote Frightful Presence under Special Qualities. Did your house rule feat give it FP earlier too? Otherwise it doesn't get it until Young Adult age.
#14 frosthammer Mar 06, 2007 16:20:43	The 27 is due to it wearing barding. Normally it'd only have 23. Oops, I didn't know there is a age restriction for Frightful presence. Do you think this mount will make encounters too easy? His diplomacy skill alone is pretty good.
#15 archangel_tyrael Mar 06, 2007 16:59:28	I think that eventually you'll start role-playing the dragon more than your character. I mean, how can your paladin compete with flying, 24 str, 19 Con, and probably 3x his hit points? Plus 6+intelligence modifier skill points, four attacks compared to your paladin's one, and all good saves? The dragon's abilities will start to overshadow your character early on. I guess what I'm trying to say is that your dragon is an ECL 16 character (12 HD +4 LA) with a level 5 rider. If you really want to go the special mount route, I'd suggest talking with your DM about getting the Leadership feat at level 6 and getting a Silver Dragon as your cohort. I'd probably houserule that your advanced riding techniques is what gives the bonuses to your mount, and I'd let you put your mount bonuses on the dragon. Those are my two coppers, you should--of course--do whatever you and your DM have agreed upon and whatever helps you have the most fun with D&D.
#16 frosthammer Mar 06, 2007 17:04:33	I'll be roleplaying them both. I basically see my dragon as an equal (above a cohort), but I didn't have to take Leadership, and the dragon doesn't get any exp. I plan to have them fall in love over the 14 levels or so (I'm a Ranger1/Paladin5. Planning on going into Wild Plains Outriders and Cavalier). This game will likely go epic eventually.
#17 matthew77 Mar 06, 2007 21:52:01	Woah.. back up. You are only level 6 Character and your DM gave you a very young Silver Dragon as mount??! So basically, instead of it being your mount, you're it's familliar? Just for reference, the Draconomicon on page 139 lists a Very Young Silver dragon as an appropriate mount for a level 14 Paladin. I suggest you and your DM rethink this plan. Either wait until higher levels for the Dragon to serve you as a mount, or have it be significantly less powerful as a companion to a level 6 character. Are you the only character in the party or something? Solo adventures can be more flexible with power balance, but I wouldn't want to be the useless level 6 sidekick in the party dominated by you and your mount.
#18 frosthammer Mar 06, 2007 23:10:53	The other people can control golem armies, or are mind-flayer monk/psion gestalts...I'm hardly the only one who has strange abilities for being a level 6. The party is kind of balanced. I just wonder what the DM will throw at us. It worries me a bit to be honest.
#19 matthew77 Mar 07, 2007 12:47:27	The other people can control golem armies, or are mind-flayer monk/psion gestalts. In this case you are so far off RAW, why bother with checking the rules on something as petty as +1 str and +4 natural armor? Just have the DM keep making up houserules like he has been already.
#20 frosthammer Mar 07, 2007 13:15:45	Because gestalts is a legitimate option? It's just that typically either eveyrone is a gestalt or no one is. Golem creation is vastly cheaper in some areas, os it's much easier to raise an army of golem. The DM is giving us bonuses depending on which geographical region our character is from. Just because he's giving us bonuses in one aspect doesn't mean he'll ignore RAW for everything. Besides. I'm interested in the official ruling on this issue.
#21 phaedrusxy Apr 03, 2008 14:47:54	It's a class feature. The thing is still your special mount when it changes forms, so it still gets the benefits of your class feature. I don't see any ambiguity in the rules here at all.
#22 wonlee76 Apr 03, 2008 15:21:00	Here's the relevant description of Alternate Form: Alternate Form (Su): A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature: The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well. The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form. I would say the benefits from being a paladin's mount = special qualities of its orginal form. I don't think "special qualities" is ever defined so there's room to argue one way or another. But that's just my opinion of course.
#23 crimsondeath Apr 03, 2008 16:55:36	"Special qualities" are, as I understand, those special abilities (as defined in the glossary of the Monster Manual) that aren't special attacks. Looking at the Paladin's Mount chart, I'd guess everything but "Command creatures of its kind" would fall under special qualities (although the Strength adjustment and natural armor adjustment might be overridden by shapechanging magic).