it is my opinion that stealing from the party members should be considered an evil action and that therefore that persons alignment should change, but our DM says no because he is a CN thief. I grow weary of having to lock my valuables up all the time because this guy is incessant about stealing from us.
it is my opinion that stealing from the party members should be considered an evil action and that therefore that persons alignment should change, but our DM says no because he is a CN thief. I grow weary of having to lock my valuables up all the time because this guy is incessant about stealing from us.
There's nothing you can do about it in-game. Even if you did kill the character, he'd just make a worse one in revenge. All you can do is talk to him.
If the problem persists, just don't help the thief. As a cleric, if you find the thief struggling in combat, let him struggle. Don't raise a hand to help him. If he wanted your help, he wouldn't see you as a walking money bag.
And your DM seems useless, btw. It sounds like he enjoys seeing the thief interfere with the party.
Have you tried actually talking to the player and telling him that being a jerk is starting to get old?
i did that and he claims that because his character is half dragon he must steal any gold he can.
i warned him several times that the consequences of his actions will be made apparent if he keeps it up.
Mark of Justice seems like a good start if he decides to continue his ridiculous crap.
In-game solutions rarely work in these kind of situations. Even if you kill or abandon his current character (though it seems that the rest of the party would be justified in doing so), his next character can be just as much as a jerk, if not more so. So you need to address the root of the problem.
Have you tried actually talking to the player and telling him that being a jerk is starting to get old?
i did that and he claims that because his character is half dragon he must steal any gold he can.
Wow. That is priceless. It's been ages since I've heard of an excuse that pathetic. Might as well say "I'm half dwarf, so I have to enter every battle drunk".
i warned him several times that the consequences of his actions will be made apparent if he keeps it up.
Mark of Justice seems like a good start if he decides to continue his ridiculous crap.
So yeah, not only is the character a jerk, but the player is purposefully trying to be a jerk. Your character should turn him over to the authorities and have him rot in a jail cell while the rest of you continue the adventure.
Seriously though, if this keeps up and the player continues to frustrate the rest of you, you should just ask him to not show up anymore. If he is going to ruin the party's fun, don't give him the chance.
Alternately, instead of killing him, you could just immobilize him (Hold Person, perhaps), or just have the whole party beat him unconscious and take your stuff back. And don't sweat alignment changes; your actions determine your alignment, so even if the DM is silly enough to do an alignment change after one action (which isn't how it works), it can change back easily enough.
When he says "I'm just playing my character!" reply "So are we. What sane person would hang around with someone who steals from them?"
in fairness my character is kind of a madman, i DID orchestrate a deal between an NPC and one of our party members that involved bedding a well over 700 pound hairy half orc woman in return for the NPC's life savings(3000 gp) and her next born child. Recently we found out that the NPC had concieved. Wonder how long till we collect....
Fine then. "What idiot would hang around with someone who steals from him?"
It's long been my opinion that it would be the height of stupidity to steal stuff from people that kill monsters for a living. Essentially he's stealing from a band of killers
as far as his character being half dragon which justifies him stealing my response would be something along the lines of "Now that you've said you're a dragon and you have to collect treasure, it occurs to me that its actually loot not treasure. Monsters have loot and adventurers have treasure"
The way I approached it was to allow the players to do deal with it as they deemed. I had the ranger (the player doing this) roll thievery checks / stealth checks to see how well he managed to hide part of the loot from the other players. then had those other players roll perception checks when they are actively looking for loot, or I use passive perception when they aren't. It took about 3 sessions for the rest of the group to catch him in the act, and he hasn't done it since. I've also given him other ways to make gold for himself with helps (betting in bareknuckle boxing for example). But the way he roleplayed it was that he was used to looking after only himself, before joining together with the party. So nothing bad really came of it and the players are working together a lot more now.
That being said your player seems to be a lot more problematic than mine. What I would do would be to have an honest adult sitdown with the whole group before the next session. Have each person explain how the behavior is affecting them, why it's not acceptable and why it has to stop. Try to have a discussion meaning each person speaks during his turn and tries not to cut off everyone else. Then let the problematic player explain his position which is "I'm a dragonborn and must steal gold", if that's really what he goes with. And continue until a resolution is achieved. Not talking about it will not make the problem go away, in fact it might just have the problem escalate into something even more negative. I think the discussion will help give everyone at the table a clear picture.
Thank you guys for all your input on this. you have been really helpful. had a discussion witht the guy today, he said he would "try" so if it happens again we will turn him over to the authorities in game
Pardon my cynicism, but given that he has very close to 100% narrative control over the actions his PC undertakes, I'm gonna have to go all Yoda here. Do, or do not, there is no try. Either he will or he won't.
(Activate sarcasm mode)
But wait, your DM will change your alignment to lawful if you turn him in to the rightful authorities!
(Deactivate sarcasm mode)
A player in the group I'm DM'ing started the campaign by keeping more of the treasure for himself. He would find 4 gems, keep 2 for himself and give 2 to the rest of the party.
The way I approached it was to allow the players to do deal with it as they deemed. I had the ranger (the player doing this) roll thievery checks / stealth checks to see how well he managed to hide part of the loot from the other players. then had those other players roll perception checks when they are actively looking for loot, or I use passive perception when they aren't. It took about 3 sessions for the rest of the group to catch him in the act, and he hasn't done it since. I've also given him other ways to make gold for himself with helps (betting in bareknuckle boxing for example). But the way he roleplayed it was that he was used to looking after only himself, before joining together with the party. So nothing bad really came of it and the players are working together a lot more now.
That being said your player seems to be a lot more problematic than mine. What I would do would be to have an honest adult sitdown with the whole group before the next session. Have each person explain how the behavior is affecting them, why it's not acceptable and why it has to stop. Try to have a discussion meaning each person speaks during his turn and tries not to cut off everyone else. Then let the problematic player explain his position which is "I'm a dragonborn and must steal gold", if that's really what he goes with. And continue until a resolution is achieved. Not talking about it will not make the problem go away, in fact it might just have the problem escalate into something even more negative. I think the discussion will help give everyone at the table a clear picture.
As long as he's playing in character, it's up to the party to deal with it.
If I was a player, I'd love to catch someone in the party stealing the loot. No matter what kind of character I was playing, it would be a role-playing opportunity. A soft-hearted priest might try to persuade him to confess the sin of his own accord and offer a means of atonement. A mercenary-for-hire barbarian might not give a rat so long as he got his agreed-upon share. A bloodthirsty blackguard might simply put a crossbow bolt in the thief's gut. The passive-aggressive wizard might keep the secret safe until such time as the information becomes useful.
Have you tried actually talking to the player and telling him that being a jerk is starting to get old?
i did that and he claims that because his character is half dragon he must steal any gold he can.
i warned him several times that the consequences of his actions will be made apparent if he keeps it up.
Mark of Justice seems like a good start if he decides to continue his ridiculous crap.
Yet another reason for not allowing half dragons.
Yet another reason for not allowing half dragons.
Not really. His race/template has exactly zero to do with his character's behavior. Mr. Half-Dragon won't be able to find a single bit of rules text to support his lame excuse.
Thank you guys for all your input on this. you have been really helpful. had a discussion witht the guy today, he said he would "try" so if it happens again we will turn him over to the authorities in game
Pardon my cynicism, but given that he has very close to 100% narrative control over the actions his PC undertakes, I'm gonna have to go all Yoda here. Do, or do not, there is no try. Either he will or he won't.
(Activate sarcasm mode)
But wait, your DM will change your alignment to lawful if you turn him in to the rightful authorities!
(Deactivate sarcasm mode)
well, nobody said I personally would turn him in, i would leave that up to the CG psionic in our party. although i could wait till next level and use Geas/Quest to make him turn himself in.
has anyone heard of someone being kicked from the party but still being in the game? i think the other members of the party would be glad to leave him in the woods, alone, confused, and possibly half alive.
Only problem I have with this approach is that it actually rewards the player for jerk behavior. The rest of the players have to wait for the DM to do his solo adventures and the DM has to come up with new campaign ideas for the character.
There are plenty of passive-aggressive ways to handle it. In the middle of a big battle, the player is dropped. The players tend to the NPCs and 'accidentally' forget about the poor PC. Oops, he dies. Besides... given the choice of helping a random NPC ally and some schmuck who keeps stealing my stuff... I'd rather help the NPC.
Only problem I have with this approach is that it actually rewards the player for jerk behavior. The rest of the players have to wait for the DM to do his solo adventures and the DM has to come up with new campaign ideas for the character.
No, not at all. That character is gone. Out. Done. No longer being played. Out of the game.
Only problem I have with this approach is that it actually rewards the player for jerk behavior. The rest of the players have to wait for the DM to do his solo adventures and the DM has to come up with new campaign ideas for the character.
There are plenty of passive-aggressive ways to handle it. In the middle of a big battle, the player is dropped. The players tend to the NPCs and 'accidentally' forget about the poor PC. Oops, he dies. Besides... given the choice of helping a random NPC ally and some schmuck who keeps stealing my stuff... I'd rather help the NPC.
yeah i was thinking that would suck too.
it is my opinion that stealing from the party members should be considered an evil action and that therefore that persons alignment should change, but our DM says no because he is a CN thief. I grow weary of having to lock my valuables up all the time because this guy is incessant about stealing from us.
There's nothing you can do about it in-game. Even if you did kill the character, he'd just make a worse one in revenge. All you can do is talk to him.
CN my fuzzy dice!
When I DM, I know a player will be a jerk if he says his character is CN. 99% of the time, they use CN as an excuse to be obnoxious. Stealing from the party requires a bit more foresight than is likely for a true CN character.
CN my fuzzy dice!
When I DM, I know a player will be a jerk if he says his character is CN. 99% of the time, they use CN as an excuse to be obnoxious. Stealing from the party requires a bit more foresight than is likely for a true CN character.
I'm CN because i enjoy playing the mad cleric, but i keep loyalty to the party at least(because it benefits me to do so. ). More recently i have been forcing the offending character to pay for healing services from me. this way i recoup some of the losses.
Only problem I have with this approach is that it actually rewards the player for jerk behavior. The rest of the players have to wait for the DM to do his solo adventures and the DM has to come up with new campaign ideas for the character.
No, not at all. That character is gone. Out. Done. No longer being played. Out of the game.
Like... gone to a pocket dimension? Faded into nothing? Fell off the world never to be seen again?
I'd rather him be retired as an NPC or eaten by a greedy dragon or killed by bandits (for the poetic justice approach).
It begs my suspension of belief that he just poofed into thin air.
The thief is kicked out of the party. As he is on his way to the inn to get his things, a loose brick from a nearby building falls on his head killing instantly. Or as he walks down an alley alone, he feels something warm and wet down the back of his shirt and hears a voice whispering "I told you what would happen," just before all goes dark and he hears the sounds of three dogs barking, an iron gate creaking open followed by the sounds of a million screams and a sudden painful rush of pain and fear.
Fine then. "That character is now an NPC and wanders away from the party he betrayed, never to be seen again." Happy now?
Jesus F. Christ.
CN my fuzzy dice!
When I DM, I know a player will be a jerk if he says his character is CN. 99% of the time, they use CN as an excuse to be obnoxious. Stealing from the party requires a bit more foresight than is likely for a true CN character.
I'm CN because i enjoy playing the mad cleric, but i keep loyalty to the party at least(because it benefits me to do so. ). More recently i have been forcing the offending character to pay for healing services from me. this way i recoup some of the losses.
Good call on the 'asking of tithes'.
10 percent ought to cover it, lol.CN is a viable alignment, it's just that it is too often used as an excuse not to role-play consistently. I've played a CN Jim Morrison-inspired half-elf bard that fit the mold and I've played a CN barbarian mercenary who was friendly and went to the highest bidder, and neither cared much for 'playin nurse-maid' to the innocents after a battle nor participated in senseless slaughter of some pig-farmer guarding his only pig. He was out for glory and glory alone. I've played a CN druid based on Moondog the Viking of 6th Avenue (he's on the net).
CN abuse. Must be stopped.
Are you naturally this annoyingly pedantic, or did you take lessons? Obviously I did not mean that the character simply vanished into the aether.
Fine then. "That character is now an NPC and wanders away from the party he betrayed, never to be seen again." Happy now?
Jesus F. Christ.
The statement was pedantic, I agree. Happy now?
CN my fuzzy dice!
When I DM, I know a player will be a jerk if he says his character is CN. 99% of the time, they use CN as an excuse to be obnoxious. Stealing from the party requires a bit more foresight than is likely for a true CN character.
I'm CN because i enjoy playing the mad cleric, but i keep loyalty to the party at least(because it benefits me to do so. ). More recently i have been forcing the offending character to pay for healing services from me. this way i recoup some of the losses.
Good call on the 'asking of tithes'. 10 percent ought to cover it, lol.
CN is a viable alignment, it's just that it is too often used as an excuse not to role-play consistently. I've played a CN Jim Morrison-inspired half-elf bard that fit the mold and I've played a CN barbarian mercenary who was friendly and went to the highest bidder, and neither cared much for 'playin nurse-maid' to the innocents after a battle nor participated in senseless slaughter of some pig-farmer guarding his only pig. He was out for glory and glory alone. I've played a CN druid based on Moondog the Viking of 6th Avenue (he's on the net).
CN abuse. Must be stopped.
Indeed it must come to an end.
My current character is out for one thing. (if you know Baldur's Gate from PC then you may get this backstory) Revenge. My characters parents were slaughtered in Baldur's Gate by a band of adventurers. He seeks out the clues to finding these murdering swine. Though in the short term I'd like to find a doppelganger enclave that is willing to train my characters shape shifting to a point were i can remember forms i did years ago and therefore not need to roll for my shape shifting when shifting to a previous form. Other than the revenge thing my character also craves companionship since being orphaned by my parents murder, and thus is always seeking to impress the party with my abilities. we have a lot of fun in town scaring the **** out of people.
Yet another reason for not allowing half dragons.
Not really. His race/template has exactly zero to do with his character's behavior. Mr. Half-Dragon won't be able to find a single bit of rules text to support his lame excuse.
The character's behavior is what led him to play the half-dragon to begin with. One bad apple.
In combat, you need to know that the person standing shoulder to shoulder with you has you back. You need to trust them, and they trust you. If I can't trust him in a fight, then I don't want him wasting my time and risking my life. Now usually this leads to the thief character getting isolated, because the player has a poor attitude. This is the root of your problems, the player has a poor attitude. The best thing you can do, is not let their poor attitude influence yours. Smile, keep your chin up, have fun, and don't be a victim. If you need to repremand him, do it with a smile and good attitude.
In short, don't let him drag you down.
Thank you guys for all your input on this. you have been really helpful. had a discussion witht the guy today, he said he would "try" so if it happens again we will turn him over to the authorities in game
Many will say that In game solutions don't work, that you need to "talk to the player" and they are of course right, for the most part.
However i will also say that talking with the player and the DM has to be reinforced "ingame" as well. Many times such upstart, antisocial behavior occurs because it is rewarded ingame. In this case the Player gets more loot and becomes richer then the other players, and Because the DM awards loot in relation to level and balanced encounters vs that level/loot ratio, being richer then the other players is a distinct reward. While plying video games I will be a jerk all the time if I get rewarded for it (course being antisocial to video game sprites is no big deal)
DMs often make the mistake of not giving consequences to actions, and this results in players acting like this, often because they haven't prepared the encounters (such as guards, local heros, governments etc) They have to reinforce consequences to actions immediately into games, if someone steals all the time they will get caught one way or the other and punished. Nipped in the bud early, when the PCs are low level and easily detained by even the resources of a small hamlet, will solve most of the problems of "CN/Evil" players
hire him as your gold carrier(he cant refuse since his char is half dragon and loves to have gold and he clearly doesnt care if its his) but keep a list of every gold piece you give him. Then when you get to town ask him for how evermuch gold you need to buy your item. If he doesnt give your gold back then your char has proof he is stealing in the form of your list and you and the rest of the party have ingame reason to beat him unconcous and take your gold to buy the item.
I like this plan. I second this plan.
And if he tries taking off with his ill gotten gains? Quest to track him down and turn his hide into armor.
On the topic of alignments, while I don't like them on principle, every build I've done that had an chaotic alignment had notes for reasons why they wouldn't backstab the party. Most of them were just "Because allies are a versatile resource" or "Because I REALLY like having Mr. Platemail take the hits for me and Mr. Holyman to fix up any injures I get."
"I'm chaotic neutral/evil" isn't a reason to backstab the party, not in any sort of 'just because' scenario. Because, out of character, you don't want to tick off your friends, and in character, the party provides services for your character that are MUCH more valuable than wealth.
In 3.5 how I handled a thief in the party was to liberally smear a variety of poisons on all my gold coins in a pure and made it easy for him to lift. He stole, he counted, he failed at least half the saves, and he never stole form me again.
Something like this perhaps?
Or maybe this?
hire him as your gold carrier(he cant refuse since his char is half dragon and loves to have gold and he clearly doesnt care if its his) but keep a list of every gold piece you give him. Then when you get to town ask him for how evermuch gold you need to buy your item. If he doesnt give your gold back then your char has proof he is stealing in the form of your list and you and the rest of the party have ingame reason to beat him unconcous and take your gold to buy the item.
I like this plan. I second this plan.
And if he tries taking off with his ill gotten gains? Quest to track him down and turn his hide into armor.
On the topic of alignments, while I don't like them on principle, every build I've done that had an chaotic alignment had notes for reasons why they wouldn't backstab the party. Most of them were just "Because allies are a versatile resource" or "Because I REALLY like having Mr. Platemail take the hits for me and Mr. Holyman to fix up any injures I get."
"I'm chaotic neutral/evil" isn't a reason to backstab the party, not in any sort of 'just because' scenario. Because, out of character, you don't want to tick off your friends, and in character, the party provides services for your character that are MUCH more valuable than wealth.
Armor hide is the main reason I travel with half-dragons. That, and the surname Dragon-Slayer!
Thank you guys for all your input on this. you have been really helpful. had a discussion witht the guy today, he said he would "try" so if it happens again we will turn him over to the authorities in game
Many will say that In game solutions don't work, that you need to "talk to the player" and they are of course right, for the most part.
However i will also say that talking with the player and the DM has to be reinforced "ingame" as well. Many times such upstart, antisocial behavior occurs because it is rewarded ingame. In this case the Player gets more loot and becomes richer then the other players, and Because the DM awards loot in relation to level and balanced encounters vs that level/loot ratio, being richer then the other players is a distinct reward. While plying video games I will be a jerk all the time if I get rewarded for it (course being antisocial to video game sprites is no big deal)
DMs often make the mistake of not giving consequences to actions, and this results in players acting like this, often because they haven't prepared the encounters (such as guards, local heros, governments etc) They have to reinforce consequences to actions immediately into games, if someone steals all the time they will get caught one way or the other and punished. Nipped in the bud early, when the PCs are low level and easily detained by even the resources of a small hamlet, will solve most of the problems of "CN/Evil" players
I had a thief in the party that pretty much robbed everybody, PCs, NPCs, you name it. After a few times of having my gold missing, my wizard created a pouch of sovereign glue. His hand got stuck in my pouch. I then turned him into the town militia who gave a pretty big reward for solving the mystery of a recent rash of thefts.
The first thing the DM and group needs to do is to decide what kind of campaign they want. If they decide to go with a cut throat, dog-eat-dog style game between each other, then I as the DM will let the players resolve it through play and character interaction. I will largely stay out of it unless such antics either damage the game or the players themselves begin to take things too personally.
If the group decides they would rather have a more traditional cooperative group style play built on party trust, then I, as DM, will intervene.
If the group chooses the latter, which most groups do, then I will inform the group that such behaviors aren't tolerated. If a player insists on being a jerk, AKA stealing from the party, I will warn him not to and talk with him. If he insists, the character is gone, and I will make him create a new one. If his new character is a jerk, the player is gone.
In the case of a player being goaded into jerk like behavior by another player, both players get the "talk."
The fact is, the OP's case is one where a DM has to step in and "take care of it." The DM in question can, and should, enlist the opinions and aid of his fellow players, but the DM really should address this decisively.
This may seem really harsh, but the fact is no one should have to put up with jerks for what should be a fun way to pass time.
This may seem really harsh, but the fact is no one should have to put up with jerks for what should be a fun way to pass time.
This is really the key here. Everyone at the table has to have fun, and when one guy decides to be a jerk, it can ruin it for everyone.
(continuous level 1 alarm spell on a coin that is only usable by your alignment).
If he comes within 20ft radius than you wake up.
Glad to hear that the problems got solved. I also noticed you handled things the way I would have...charged him for healing services, and just plain letting him die. Healers have the ability to end that kind of player strife with a quickness when they choose to withhold the healing.
I might let the healer have a little XP bonus as well if he managed to roleplay a little "Perhaps in your next life..." sermon, lol.
Just buy an alarm coin for 700gp.
(continuous level 1 alarm spell on a coin that is only usable by your alignment).
If he comes within 20ft radius than you wake up.
Or an animated object coin that bites off his finger when he tries to grab it.
Glad to hear that the problems got solved. I also noticed you handled things the way I would have...charged him for healing services, and just plain letting him die. Healers have the ability to end that kind of player strife with a quickness when they choose to withhold the healing.
I might let the healer have a little XP bonus as well if he managed to roleplay a little "Perhaps in your next life..." sermon, lol.
That would be awesome.