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â¦when you feel every game is headed towards oblivion?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
marc_bern
Mar 22, 2010 18:07:19
I must be prescient. No, really. I must be. I was writing this message, put it on hold to go work, and came back to an email telling me of my DM quitting on us. Not that I blame him. Anyways, here’s the message I was writing and see if you can sort any of this mess out:

We have a few problems plaguing us. I’ve told the DM to try and post on the D&D Forums to see if anyone had suggestions, but he’s getting more and more disillusioned and disinterested and doesn’t want to bother posting here.

First of all, we’re probably too many players. 7 in total.

Our line-up includes a Human Cleric, a Half-Elf Paladin, a Dragonborn Fighter, an Eladrin Wizard, a Shifter Druid, a Deva Invoker and me as the Human Avenger. My Avenger and the Druid are merely transitional characters for plot advancement, my main character being a Half-Elf Bard and the other Shifter Druid being… a Shifter Druid (the Druid with us at the moment being the younger brother of the one not with us). Both will eventually return to the party, so that we’ll still be 7 in the end.

We’re trying to be as inclusive as we can to regroup all of our friends, but that point alone is part of the problem. The Paladin, the Druid, the Cleric and I are the Role Playing oriented ones. The Wizard, the Fighter and the Invoker are merely number crunchers. We play to follow the storyline and interact in characters, they play to roll dice and they essentially have no character; merely stats. Should any RP be directed at them, they invent things out of thin air (some making reasonable sense, some being entirely foolish) and one in particular flinches and panics entirely.

We try to speak and interact with each other “in character” but they’re mostly having conversations “out of character”.

Turns take way too long and people only appear to focus on the board when we have to call their names in the initiative order during fights. I tend to stare at the board and try to pre-pick my attacks most of the time as to take as little time as possible with my turn. I’m not saying I’m the perfect player, but I do try to do my best. Some turns take a ridiculous amount of time.

Whereas it’s assumed the DM and the players will sometimes tweak their rolls, we have serious doubts about one player’s truthfulness. And even then, when he does roll, he takes forever to actually decide what attack he’s playing. He usually exclaims his total and then takes more time to figure out what his attack hits on and usually only describes the effects of his attacks as “it does something” until he sorts it all out.

Given turns take so long, people have started to do their university homework, read fiction online or even play WoW on their laptops; which all further elongates the turns.

The “number crunchers” are far from being newbies at D&D though. If anything, they’re veterans who’ve played older versions and I am the rookie in the game.

The number of players and prolonged turns are also joined by munchkining (by the Cleric and the Fighter in particular). One always heals, the other always hits. Although the DM has started using higher stats for his monsters, at the end of the day, we’re mostly only afflicted by minor flesh wounds thanks to the Cleric. This means that there is little to no challenge.

The DM is more RP driven himself but desperately tries to mix both RP and fighting… to little avail as the number crunchers would rather just fight and we’d rather have a bit more RP than three weeks of fighting and then barely one session of RP.

Our surroundings probably don’t help: living room floor. We’re sprawled all over in a small apartment. What’s more, the DM is dating the Cleric, so tiffs they might have in regards to the game usually end up festering even when the game session ends.

We actually tried to implement rules limiting our talking unless it was IC and to have shorter turns least we'd lose it entirely, but that didn't last very long.

Anyways, as I said, the Cleric sent us as email telling us that the DM was fed up with the situation and quitting. Depending on how many people decide to continue playing, the Cleric has decided that he’ll DM from now on, which means that many plots will be dropped. Sure, we’ll probably be down one player, and there won’t be as much healing as before, but turns will probably take just as long and there will probably be less focus.

I feel that my answer should be that yes, I’ll continue playing for the sake for getting my Bard back, but only until further notice. If things only worsen, I feel like I want to abandon ship.

I also like our now former DM’s storytelling abilities and how he actually presents himself as a different person and even takes a different voice when we’re interacting with his NPCs. He has a gift for the RP. Would I be highly selfish to ask if he was completely done with D&D or if he’d ever consider DMing again (in a different setting where we would be a smaller group, avoiding munchkining, more intent on RP, and more focused on the game at hand?).

I also appologize for the potentially horrible grammar and spelling mistakes. I did type rather quickly as I wanted to send this out ASAP.
#2
nikitadarkstar
Mar 22, 2010 18:30:03 Honestly? I'd split the group. You're what? 7 players and the DM? So 8 in total. Well since some of you are Role Player ortinetated and some of you are pure startegy players (seriously, tell them to play risk instead...) it honestly just sounds like you're spoiling eachothers fun.

Ask your ex-DM if he could consider DM'ing for those of you who are RP-focused, and well tell the Startegy players to either get in line or find a new DM/group that fits their style better.

Ofcourse this assumes the DM would be willing to run a game for you, otherwise talk things over with the rest of the group, decide on a playstyle and play. (But again, if you don't want to RP in DnD you're better of playing Risk, seriously.)
#3
mirri-sthebest
Mar 22, 2010 18:36:38
I agree with Nikita, you clearly have two sets of people who have 2 very different ideas about how to have fun in this group. In the end, you have to do what's going to be fun for you.
#4
oldguygaming
Mar 22, 2010 19:01:23
Given turns take so long, people have started to do their university homework, read fiction online or even play WoW on their laptops; which all further elongates the turns.

I would consider that completely unacceptable. It slows down the game, is incredibly rude, and disrespects everyone at the table. As a player or a DM, I would get up and leave as soon as that started.

One suggestion... I do not mean to put down 4e in any way but for most groups 4e combat takes way too long. Your group may simply not have the patience for it. Have you tried running v3.5 or 2e? A faster combat system may help players stay focused which could help a number of issues.

Another thing that might help is switching to round-by-round initiative. With as many people as you have, when a player finishes his turn he knows it will be a long time till his next turn. But if initiative is determined each round, that randomizes the period between a given player's turns which could help the game feel more dynamic.

#5
chaosturtle
Mar 22, 2010 20:17:17 It does sound like a split might be in order...the DM seems to fall under the "plot" catagory of your group, meaning the majority are actually interested in the story while the 3 number crunches are the odd men out.
#6
paul_v
Mar 22, 2010 20:48:36 Although all of your suggestions so far would be fairly standard in most cases, I think you're all missing the fact that: A) The ex-DM is dating the Cleric. and B) The Cleric is one of the crunch-oriented players. Conflict of interest much? While this would not be an issue if people were willing to behave rationally and maturely, there are cases where this does not happen.

My suggestion? Asking the ex-DM to run a game with you (and whoever else you want to include) is not selfish at all. You have a right to have fun. You have two ways to go about this: You can either keep it a secret from the other players, or your can be upfront with it. I would recommend straightforwardness, but this might not be the best course of action in all cases. You know your friends. You know whether or not secrets can be kept.

If you believe that the players could be split without a problem, then by all means, do so. If that's not the case and you can't resort to secrecy, then ask the ex-DM if he'd ever be willing to DM again (as you suggested) and talk to him about possible alternatives. It would be a good idea, if the Cleric would take it badly, to prepare a speech between the two of you (or, even better, between all of the players who agree to the idea) to give him so that he won't get upset. Furthermore, finding them a crunch-oriented DM is also a good idea. If you are worried about hurting the Cleric's feelings (I wouldn't, but hey, to each their own), then make sure to make it clear that this decision is so that everyone has fun, and it's not meant as an attack of any kind.

I am leaving this largely up to you, since you know your friends better, but in case it wasn't clear, I also echo the idea of separating the groups. However, I recommend that you first speak with the ex-DM about it privately.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 marc_bern Mar 22, 2010 18:07:19	I must be prescient. No, really. I must be. I was writing this message, put it on hold to go work, and came back to an email telling me of my DM quitting on us. Not that I blame him. Anyways, here’s the message I was writing and see if you can sort any of this mess out: We have a few problems plaguing us. I’ve told the DM to try and post on the D&D Forums to see if anyone had suggestions, but he’s getting more and more disillusioned and disinterested and doesn’t want to bother posting here. First of all, we’re probably too many players. 7 in total. Our line-up includes a Human Cleric, a Half-Elf Paladin, a Dragonborn Fighter, an Eladrin Wizard, a Shifter Druid, a Deva Invoker and me as the Human Avenger. My Avenger and the Druid are merely transitional characters for plot advancement, my main character being a Half-Elf Bard and the other Shifter Druid being… a Shifter Druid (the Druid with us at the moment being the younger brother of the one not with us). Both will eventually return to the party, so that we’ll still be 7 in the end. We’re trying to be as inclusive as we can to regroup all of our friends, but that point alone is part of the problem. The Paladin, the Druid, the Cleric and I are the Role Playing oriented ones. The Wizard, the Fighter and the Invoker are merely number crunchers. We play to follow the storyline and interact in characters, they play to roll dice and they essentially have no character; merely stats. Should any RP be directed at them, they invent things out of thin air (some making reasonable sense, some being entirely foolish) and one in particular flinches and panics entirely. We try to speak and interact with each other “in character” but they’re mostly having conversations “out of character”. Turns take way too long and people only appear to focus on the board when we have to call their names in the initiative order during fights. I tend to stare at the board and try to pre-pick my attacks most of the time as to take as little time as possible with my turn. I’m not saying I’m the perfect player, but I do try to do my best. Some turns take a ridiculous amount of time. Whereas it’s assumed the DM and the players will sometimes tweak their rolls, we have serious doubts about one player’s truthfulness. And even then, when he does roll, he takes forever to actually decide what attack he’s playing. He usually exclaims his total and then takes more time to figure out what his attack hits on and usually only describes the effects of his attacks as “it does something” until he sorts it all out. Given turns take so long, people have started to do their university homework, read fiction online or even play WoW on their laptops; which all further elongates the turns. The “number crunchers” are far from being newbies at D&D though. If anything, they’re veterans who’ve played older versions and I am the rookie in the game. The number of players and prolonged turns are also joined by munchkining (by the Cleric and the Fighter in particular). One always heals, the other always hits. Although the DM has started using higher stats for his monsters, at the end of the day, we’re mostly only afflicted by minor flesh wounds thanks to the Cleric. This means that there is little to no challenge. The DM is more RP driven himself but desperately tries to mix both RP and fighting… to little avail as the number crunchers would rather just fight and we’d rather have a bit more RP than three weeks of fighting and then barely one session of RP. Our surroundings probably don’t help: living room floor. We’re sprawled all over in a small apartment. What’s more, the DM is dating the Cleric, so tiffs they might have in regards to the game usually end up festering even when the game session ends. We actually tried to implement rules limiting our talking unless it was IC and to have shorter turns least we'd lose it entirely, but that didn't last very long. Anyways, as I said, the Cleric sent us as email telling us that the DM was fed up with the situation and quitting. Depending on how many people decide to continue playing, the Cleric has decided that he’ll DM from now on, which means that many plots will be dropped. Sure, we’ll probably be down one player, and there won’t be as much healing as before, but turns will probably take just as long and there will probably be less focus. I feel that my answer should be that yes, I’ll continue playing for the sake for getting my Bard back, but only until further notice. If things only worsen, I feel like I want to abandon ship. I also like our now former DM’s storytelling abilities and how he actually presents himself as a different person and even takes a different voice when we’re interacting with his NPCs. He has a gift for the RP. Would I be highly selfish to ask if he was completely done with D&D or if he’d ever consider DMing again (in a different setting where we would be a smaller group, avoiding munchkining, more intent on RP, and more focused on the game at hand?). I also appologize for the potentially horrible grammar and spelling mistakes. I did type rather quickly as I wanted to send this out ASAP.
#2 nikitadarkstar Mar 22, 2010 18:30:03	Honestly? I'd split the group. You're what? 7 players and the DM? So 8 in total. Well since some of you are Role Player ortinetated and some of you are pure startegy players (seriously, tell them to play risk instead...) it honestly just sounds like you're spoiling eachothers fun. Ask your ex-DM if he could consider DM'ing for those of you who are RP-focused, and well tell the Startegy players to either get in line or find a new DM/group that fits their style better. Ofcourse this assumes the DM would be willing to run a game for you, otherwise talk things over with the rest of the group, decide on a playstyle and play. (But again, if you don't want to RP in DnD you're better of playing Risk, seriously.)
#3 mirri-sthebest Mar 22, 2010 18:36:38	I agree with Nikita, you clearly have two sets of people who have 2 very different ideas about how to have fun in this group. In the end, you have to do what's going to be fun for you.
#4 oldguygaming Mar 22, 2010 19:01:23	Given turns take so long, people have started to do their university homework, read fiction online or even play WoW on their laptops; which all further elongates the turns. I would consider that completely unacceptable. It slows down the game, is incredibly rude, and disrespects everyone at the table. As a player or a DM, I would get up and leave as soon as that started. One suggestion... I do not mean to put down 4e in any way but for most groups 4e combat takes way too long. Your group may simply not have the patience for it. Have you tried running v3.5 or 2e? A faster combat system may help players stay focused which could help a number of issues. Another thing that might help is switching to round-by-round initiative. With as many people as you have, when a player finishes his turn he knows it will be a long time till his next turn. But if initiative is determined each round, that randomizes the period between a given player's turns which could help the game feel more dynamic.
#5 chaosturtle Mar 22, 2010 20:17:17	It does sound like a split might be in order...the DM seems to fall under the "plot" catagory of your group, meaning the majority are actually interested in the story while the 3 number crunches are the odd men out.
#6 paul_v Mar 22, 2010 20:48:36	Although all of your suggestions so far would be fairly standard in most cases, I think you're all missing the fact that: A) The ex-DM is dating the Cleric. and B) The Cleric is one of the crunch-oriented players. Conflict of interest much? While this would not be an issue if people were willing to behave rationally and maturely, there are cases where this does not happen. My suggestion? Asking the ex-DM to run a game with you (and whoever else you want to include) is not selfish at all. You have a right to have fun. You have two ways to go about this: You can either keep it a secret from the other players, or your can be upfront with it. I would recommend straightforwardness, but this might not be the best course of action in all cases. You know your friends. You know whether or not secrets can be kept. If you believe that the players could be split without a problem, then by all means, do so. If that's not the case and you can't resort to secrecy, then ask the ex-DM if he'd ever be willing to DM again (as you suggested) and talk to him about possible alternatives. It would be a good idea, if the Cleric would take it badly, to prepare a speech between the two of you (or, even better, between all of the players who agree to the idea) to give him so that he won't get upset. Furthermore, finding them a crunch-oriented DM is also a good idea. If you are worried about hurting the Cleric's feelings (I wouldn't, but hey, to each their own), then make sure to make it clear that this decision is so that everyone has fun, and it's not meant as an attack of any kind. I am leaving this largely up to you, since you know your friends better, but in case it wasn't clear, I also echo the idea of separating the groups. However, I recommend that you first speak with the ex-DM about it privately.