Advice needed: defender or leader? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Advice needed: defender or leader?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
FlashbackJon
Jun 26, 2009 11:04:42 Here's the scenario: we have a Tiefling Starlock, a Tiefling "DPR" Reach Fighter, a Human "DPR" Avenging Cleric, and an Elven Rogue.

I put "DPR" in both our defender and leader because neither of them has much concern about "roles" and will both be focused on damage-dealing. I don't know that I can count on the Leader to throw out many heals, and I know I can't count on the Defender to do any defending, except that which happens naturally as a result of him bludgeoning stuff.

I'm stuck between two characters. I like them both but I'm critically indecisive, so I figured I'd throw it out to the forums.

A) Dwarven Protection Shaman - more of a bear/panther hybrid.
b) Warforged Earthstrength Warden - more of an ES/WB hybrid.

I like both of their stories and the character itself, as well as both playstyles. I think I'd ultimately prefer the Warden, but I think the Shaman might be more necessary.

Thoughts?
#2
tyrandor
Jun 26, 2009 11:37:46 'DPR' fighter often make surprisingly good defender.

I think your friend who intend to play a STR cleric has a striker is setting himself up for a huge disappointment in a few level tho... Melee Cleric's dpr doesn't start out very strong and really doesn't keep up with other classes. Funny thing too, is that most of the melee cleric attack that deal 'decent' damage, are also the one that heal. So he may very well end up being a very good healer regardless.
#3
Kensan_Oni
Jun 26, 2009 13:07:58 First off, play what you love. If you got all the roles covered, then you should be fine.

... although personally, I would be leaning towards a Predetor Druid with that group. You are lacking a controller, and having a person with an at will AOE ability is never a bad thing to have.
#4
nightwalker450
Jun 26, 2009 13:16:11 I'd recommend the shaman. But thats because Primal Warforged seems contradictory to me (not saying it is... just it doesn't sit quite right to me), but if you have a story that you really like for him.. Then I'd say flip a coin :D
#5
Kensan_Oni
Jun 26, 2009 13:31:42
... But thats because Primal Warforged seems contradictory to me (not saying it is... just it doesn't sit quite right to me)

Your insides are made of wood. If that doesn't scream primal, I don't know what does. :D

I know, I'm like the only person that sees the metal and thinks Exoskeleton, instead of robot...
#6
FlashbackJon
Jun 26, 2009 13:39:00
'DPR' fighter often make surprisingly good defender.

I think your friend who intend to play a STR cleric has a striker is setting himself up for a huge disappointment in a few level tho... Melee Cleric's dpr doesn't start out very strong and really doesn't keep up with other classes. Funny thing too, is that most of the melee cleric attack that deal 'decent' damage, are also the one that heal. So he may very well end up being a very good healer regardless.

I don't know that the cleric's going melee, so much as he just wants to do damage. I'm kinda hoping our Defender will end up defending just by virtue of doing what he does, so I'm starting to lean towards the shaman. ...again.

First off, play what you love. If you got all the roles covered, then you should be fine.

... although personally, I would be leaning towards a Predetor Druid with that group. You are lacking a controller, and having a person with an at will AOE ability is never a bad thing to have.

I haven't read much into the starlock, but the group seems to be under the impression (this is our first foray into 4th) it can function as a sort of secondary controller. That said, I'm not averse to druids. In fact, I love all the Primal classes soooo much. :D

I'd recommend the shaman. But thats because Primal Warforged seems contradictory to me (not saying it is... just it doesn't sit quite right to me), but if you have a story that you really like for him.. Then I'd say flip a coin :D

Actually, I borrowed this from the 1001 "Path Less Traveled" character concepts thread. The character is not an arcane construct of metal and wood, but rather a primal construct of stone and living vine. (Also, we're not playing in Eberron. :D)
#7
tyrandor
Jun 26, 2009 14:39:26
I don't know that the cleric's going melee, so much as he just wants to do damage. I'm kinda hoping our Defender will end up defending just by virtue of doing what he does, so I'm starting to lean towards the shaman. ...again.

It's a catch 22.

Laser Cleric are usually stuck using D6 and D8 for damage. They're damage scale very poorly (They'll still only be doing a handful of dice of damage even at paragon) and they have no 'striker mechanism' unless he intends to multi-class heavily... his damage will be poor.

STR Cleric are a bit better off, since they can deal [W] damage, they can easily blow a feat to get D12 or 2D6 (with brutal, high crit, etc)... however, they still lack any striker mechanism and do not get any attack that is above [2]W before paragon level.

However, if you take a quick look, you'll quickly find that the Cleric attack that deal the most damage (Healing Strike, Strenghten the Faithful, Divine Power) ALL have a healing component to them.

So that's the 2 points I'm trying to make:
1 - A DPR cleric doesn't really work.
2 - The cleric attack that deal the most damage during Heroic are 'STR' power and all have healing component.

In short, a dpr cleric will have a lot of healing.

Unless of course he goes with the multi-classing route and end up with no cleric powers.

So yeah, roll a shaman if that's what you want to, but don't do it because you're afraid you guys won't have enough healing - you will.
#8
kratch
Jun 26, 2009 15:01:13
I don't know that the cleric's going melee, so much as he just wants to do damage. I'm kinda hoping our Defender will end up defending just by virtue of doing what he does, so I'm starting to lean towards the shaman. ...again.

Chances are, the fighter will, as you say, be defending by accident, at least against some opponents. the shaman will better be able to assist the rogue, who will get the worst of the deal if the fighter chooses to ignore the role as best he can, and keep the group, as a whole, standing. Going Defender may result in more safety for your partymates (assuming the fighter isn't constantly overriding your ideal marks), but there is still the issue of healing, which is less likely to come accidentally (especially if he chooses sustainable powers). IE You will likely get more accidental defending from the fighter then you will get accidental healing from the cleric.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 FlashbackJon Jun 26, 2009 11:04:42	Here's the scenario: we have a Tiefling Starlock, a Tiefling "DPR" Reach Fighter, a Human "DPR" Avenging Cleric, and an Elven Rogue. I put "DPR" in both our defender and leader because neither of them has much concern about "roles" and will both be focused on damage-dealing. I don't know that I can count on the Leader to throw out many heals, and I know I can't count on the Defender to do any defending, except that which happens naturally as a result of him bludgeoning stuff. I'm stuck between two characters. I like them both but I'm critically indecisive, so I figured I'd throw it out to the forums. A) Dwarven Protection Shaman - more of a bear/panther hybrid. b) Warforged Earthstrength Warden - more of an ES/WB hybrid. I like both of their stories and the character itself, as well as both playstyles. I think I'd ultimately prefer the Warden, but I think the Shaman might be more necessary. Thoughts?
#2 tyrandor Jun 26, 2009 11:37:46	'DPR' fighter often make surprisingly good defender. I think your friend who intend to play a STR cleric has a striker is setting himself up for a huge disappointment in a few level tho... Melee Cleric's dpr doesn't start out very strong and really doesn't keep up with other classes. Funny thing too, is that most of the melee cleric attack that deal 'decent' damage, are also the one that heal. So he may very well end up being a very good healer regardless.
#3 Kensan_Oni Jun 26, 2009 13:07:58	First off, play what you love. If you got all the roles covered, then you should be fine. ... although personally, I would be leaning towards a Predetor Druid with that group. You are lacking a controller, and having a person with an at will AOE ability is never a bad thing to have.
#4 nightwalker450 Jun 26, 2009 13:16:11	I'd recommend the shaman. But thats because Primal Warforged seems contradictory to me (not saying it is... just it doesn't sit quite right to me), but if you have a story that you really like for him.. Then I'd say flip a coin :D
#5 Kensan_Oni Jun 26, 2009 13:31:42	... But thats because Primal Warforged seems contradictory to me (not saying it is... just it doesn't sit quite right to me) Your insides are made of wood. If that doesn't scream primal, I don't know what does. :D I know, I'm like the only person that sees the metal and thinks Exoskeleton, instead of robot...
#6 FlashbackJon Jun 26, 2009 13:39:00	'DPR' fighter often make surprisingly good defender. I think your friend who intend to play a STR cleric has a striker is setting himself up for a huge disappointment in a few level tho... Melee Cleric's dpr doesn't start out very strong and really doesn't keep up with other classes. Funny thing too, is that most of the melee cleric attack that deal 'decent' damage, are also the one that heal. So he may very well end up being a very good healer regardless. I don't know that the cleric's going melee, so much as he just wants to do damage. I'm kinda hoping our Defender will end up defending just by virtue of doing what he does, so I'm starting to lean towards the shaman. ...again. First off, play what you love. If you got all the roles covered, then you should be fine. ... although personally, I would be leaning towards a Predetor Druid with that group. You are lacking a controller, and having a person with an at will AOE ability is never a bad thing to have. I haven't read much into the starlock, but the group seems to be under the impression (this is our first foray into 4th) it can function as a sort of secondary controller. That said, I'm not averse to druids. In fact, I love all the Primal classes soooo much. :D I'd recommend the shaman. But thats because Primal Warforged seems contradictory to me (not saying it is... just it doesn't sit quite right to me), but if you have a story that you really like for him.. Then I'd say flip a coin :D Actually, I borrowed this from the 1001 "Path Less Traveled" character concepts thread. The character is not an arcane construct of metal and wood, but rather a primal construct of stone and living vine. (Also, we're not playing in Eberron. :D)
#7 tyrandor Jun 26, 2009 14:39:26	I don't know that the cleric's going melee, so much as he just wants to do damage. I'm kinda hoping our Defender will end up defending just by virtue of doing what he does, so I'm starting to lean towards the shaman. ...again. It's a catch 22. Laser Cleric are usually stuck using D6 and D8 for damage. They're damage scale very poorly (They'll still only be doing a handful of dice of damage even at paragon) and they have no 'striker mechanism' unless he intends to multi-class heavily... his damage will be poor. STR Cleric are a bit better off, since they can deal [W] damage, they can easily blow a feat to get D12 or 2D6 (with brutal, high crit, etc)... however, they still lack any striker mechanism and do not get any attack that is above [2]W before paragon level. However, if you take a quick look, you'll quickly find that the Cleric attack that deal the most damage (Healing Strike, Strenghten the Faithful, Divine Power) ALL have a healing component to them. So that's the 2 points I'm trying to make: 1 - A DPR cleric doesn't really work. 2 - The cleric attack that deal the most damage during Heroic are 'STR' power and all have healing component. In short, a dpr cleric will have a lot of healing. Unless of course he goes with the multi-classing route and end up with no cleric powers. So yeah, roll a shaman if that's what you want to, but don't do it because you're afraid you guys won't have enough healing - you will.
#8 kratch Jun 26, 2009 15:01:13	I don't know that the cleric's going melee, so much as he just wants to do damage. I'm kinda hoping our Defender will end up defending just by virtue of doing what he does, so I'm starting to lean towards the shaman. ...again. Chances are, the fighter will, as you say, be defending by accident, at least against some opponents. the shaman will better be able to assist the rogue, who will get the worst of the deal if the fighter chooses to ignore the role as best he can, and keep the group, as a whole, standing. Going Defender may result in more safety for your partymates (assuming the fighter isn't constantly overriding your ideal marks), but there is still the issue of healing, which is less likely to come accidentally (especially if he chooses sustainable powers). IE You will likely get more accidental defending from the fighter then you will get accidental healing from the cleric.