I've been playing with a group for a couple months now and the players get along pretty well out of character. There hasn't been any serious drama and everyone laughs and has a good time. However, in character is a different story; we all came into the game without knowing one another, since we met up online, and no one really made an attempt to match up their character stories before the game started. We all exchanged what classes we would play, and one of the group said he was going to be a drow wizard. The rest of us were playing good or neutral with good leaning characters, so this would raise a few eyebrows, but no one said anything. For my part, I opted to roll with the punches in the spirit of tolerance.
The problem is that the drow wizard is, in fact, an undead drow necromancer who has a large number of undead under his command. In addition to just being a necromancer and raising the dead, he has commited other inherently evil acts, like killing paladins and raising dead party members as his undead minions.
I've dropped some heavy hints that my character doesn't like the undead, and that I personally don't like the direction the game is going. I've brought up that necromancy is inherently evil, that rumors about undead are going to taint the party's reputation, that eventually we're going to be the target of paladin reprisal as followers of evil etc. He either ignores the comment or replies that its a fantasy game and anything can happen.
I skimmed the forums for similar circumstances, and a running theme is players who force the party to revolve around their characters. This is how I view the necromancer's player: he didn't inform anyone of what he was doing (other than the DM, who went along with it for what reason I'm not sure), and is forcing us to either make our characters tolerate the undead (which is WAY against character for at least two of us) or take IC action against him. My character would just leave the party if they kept the necromancer around, but I don't want to do that because I was just getting into this character, and I feel no desire to reroll a character that for some reason is okay with necromancy and being hunted by the king.
So what should I do? I'm hesitant to go to the DM, since he approved all this in the first place. There are plenty of IC actions my character could use to take the necromancer out of the mix, like turning him in for killing the paladin, but that's the kind of thing that starts real world fights. Am I being too much of a stickler for 'realism'? I know I'm more rigid than most people in terms of what's 'realistic' in DnD, but this seems like it's just too much. Do I just need to ignore this guy? Should I just ignore the OOC consequences and play my character true to his backstory?
Perhaps for the best, I'm going on vacation and won't be able to play until January. I decided to post this because I realized that, as selfish as it sounds, the whole undead drow necromancer thing is making the game less fun for me. I didn't sign up to play in an evil party and that's what he's forcing us, de facto, to be. I'm hoping someone where has made it through a similar situation and can offer some tips about how to approach the DM and/or the other players to figure this out.
I don't mind player conflict as a dm, as long as it doesn't bring the campaign to a halt.
Since other party members are not doing anything about it, they are being inactive aka neutral since they aren't standing up for their convictions. Personally, I'd take him out now before he gets more powerful.
The problem is that the drow wizard is, in fact, an undead drow necromancer who has a large number of undead under his command. In addition to just being a necromancer and raising the dead, he has commited other inherently evil acts, like killing paladins and raising dead party members as his undead minions.
I've dropped some heavy hints that my character doesn't like the undead, and that I personally don't like the direction the game is going. I've brought up that necromancy is inherently evil, that rumors about undead are going to taint the party's reputation, that eventually we're going to be the target of paladin reprisal as followers of evil etc. He either ignores the comment or replies that its a fantasy game and anything can happen.
I think Captain Rhodes(Day of the Dead) stated it best in a similar situation when he said "Listen to this" as he gunned down Dr. Frankenstein. Its pretty simple, once he raises a dead party member you than kill him. At that point you are pretty much given a moral free pass on murder.
Necromancy is not inheritly evil. Look for the [Evil] descriptor. If you think necromancy is evil then don't let he cleric use raise dead on you.
Creating undead, and several other things this drow has done, most certain IS evil, however.
The fact that he's raised former party members as undead minions should be a BIG RED FLAG that you don't want to hang around with this guy.
The easiest thing to do is simply to retire your character. "There's no way my guy would hang around with someone who does the evil things your character does, so he's just going to leave."
The second easiest thing would be to talk, privately and in-character, to the other PCs and see what they think about this. They may agree with you, then you can all force the drow out of your party (at swordpoint, if need be), then he can make a character more suitable to the party in question (aka a good guy).
If you are capable of playing an evil character, then you could rejoin the game ... if not, sit it out.
Necromancy is not inheritly evil. Look for the [Evil] descriptor. If you think necromancy is evil then don't let he cleric use raise dead on you.
Necromancy is not inheritly evil, but both the Animate Dead and Create Undead spells are, since they DO have the [Evil] descriptor. The op's main complaint was not that he was a necromancer, but that he killed a paladin and raised undead, both evil acts.
Maybe bring him back from the dead as a zombie to polish your sword and armor for all eternity just for the irony of the situation.
I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but killing the necromancer is the ONLY solution to the problem.
Maybe bring him back from the dead as a zombie to polish your sword and armor for all eternity just for the irony of the situation.
Uh, no, that's just sinking to his level.
Necromancy is not inheritly evil, but both the Animate Dead and Create Undead spells are, since they DO have the [Evil] descriptor. The op's main complaint was not that he was a necromancer, but that he killed a paladin and raised undead, both evil acts.
Indeed. The drow PC is a villain.
and raising dead party members as his undead minions.
Yes, yes he did.
Step Two (optional, but recommended): Go to the other players. Its alot easier to take out another party member when you have their support. Start with those who are staunchly good, appealing to their alignment but leave out any who are non-good and who seem supportive of the necromancer (you don't want him tipped off).
Step Three: Kill the necromancer. If you are willing to compromise, you can introduce that option after he is dead (or captured if possible). But if you just can't live with what he does, kill him.
Carl
The fact that he is so very flippant about the whole scenario smacks of disregard for the other PCs, the player component especially. It's putting them (and you) in an awkward position which will ultimately evolve into a downward spiral. This doesn't have to end badly though, but the conclusion is likely to have an arguement that gets "beyond words".
Now, you must bear in mind the social aspect of this game. Not all good weekend buddies or anything. Just gaming contemporaries. That, to some, affords more "creative liberties" that others might find dubious. These aren't your close friends, so the out of game loyalty isn't going to get you the same rapport that good gaming friends would. ie) He's gonna' pull this kinda' crap cuz' he has more leverage to do so and no real incentive in making friends.
I got nothing against evil PCs. Very compelling, can be better than your default "good hero campaigns" too. I like fresh blood now and again. But he's not really trying. If this PC were so smart (Wzd->Int?), he'd be more discrete, try and earn your trust, manipulate you to safeguard himself, whatever. He's wreckless and egocentric, dangerous qualities in even a LG PC. It is very likely this matter will be resolved w/ judicious violence, and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it either, you know?
-He's forced your (all of your) hand(s)
-Forcing more game time onto him instead of an equal distribution of DM's attention
-Totally making bonehead calls even for an NPC evil necro. Is he trying to get caught and act the fool?
-Dick move: new game/new gamers, put them in compromising positions? Best foot forward, always. What's more important? A sense of satisfaction of some imaginary persona in a fake world, or making more real world friends that will likely lead to better/more gaming down the road? New gamers/gaming group is like an investment...want it to grow and make more.
"Do you hear that Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability."
It's gonna' get ugly I'm afraid. Just stress it's not personal (despite some of it being so; keep a brave face on things), "This is what my PC would do."
Good luck
Ask yourself a question: "Am I enjoying this game?" Anything other than "Yes", then quit. Not even a "Yes, but". The DM has given him permission to behave as he does. Talking to him will not change anything.
I've experienced this Jerkitude with DM enabling way too many times. If you can answer "Yes", then be a Jerk right back to him. Shun him. Don't kill the character because his next character will have a vendetta against you. When the character makes the first move against you, probably out of anger because of your shunning, then you can kill him. You'll have to watch out for him going for an auto-kill, such as when your character is asleep, or otherwise do it in a way you can't fight back effectively.
If your character is killed without being able to fight back effectively, you have one last chance with the DM to "punish" him as a sympathy vote of confidence. Sometimes a DM can get a dose a sanity at this point and Do Something such that your character is not killed. However, it is unfortunately too often the DM does not, claiming to be Neutral and doesn't want to get involved in player vs player conflict, when in reality he's being a chicken or otherwise wholeheartedly approves the Jerk's actions. At that point you have no choice but to quit. They'll laugh at you behind your back. In future game sessions they'll call you a whiny baby. You won't know it because you're not there, but it is what they'll do. I've heard it with groups I played with before I realized there was a Real Jerk-DM enabling relationship. As for yourself, D&D will continue to be something fun with another gaming group, instead of stress, anger, and nothing but bad memories.
On a more serious note, talk to your DM and other players about it.
Refuse, as a party to game with this guy.
IC, the party drops him off at the nearest town.
OOC, the players tell the GM "He's out."
It's not about sinking to his level, it's about wasting your time as his minion, going along giving tacit approval to his actions.
He doesn't give a flying damn about what anyone wants, if you've painted an accurate picture.
It might be a fight. He KNOWS THAT, and knows he's pushier and more aggressive, and most people aren't, so he's intimidated everyone into going along with him.
Get the clue that it's a game as long as all agree to play.
Except you are all playing by his rules, with the DM letting it happen.
This is total, 100% DM ****up, backed up by weak-willed players not enforcing the broken social contract on Captain Boorish.
He claimed he was a Drow wizard. Which is (as we see) might be something playable.
Bait and switch (watch closely)
Day One: I wish to be a drow necromancer, with undead minions. PS, if your PC dies, i'll summon Your PC as my minion. Oh, and I plan to kill paladins.
THAT is the guy that signed up for your games.
Would you have agreed to play if that was the setup?
He's followed the Encyclopedia salesman, wedge foot in door, go in, make presentation, hard press sell on old grandpa and granny, till as you walk in, they are signing the check for 2000.00 over 6 months of payment just to be rid of him, because of high pressure tactics.
Fire this guy.
Now.
If your DM is too much of a punk, one of you needs to do it.
The guy is bullying you, the DM and the party to hijack the game for self-aggrandizement as manipulative, scheming PC, , and nobody is patently realizing it.
Yeah he's evil, just "Playing his character." But if nobody wants to game with the character, WHY IS HE STILL IN THE PARTY.
Stop playing nice to evil. Play YOUR characters to the hilt as he has.
You all know his crimes. IC, Take him aside when he doesn't have minions around, and say, "let's have a chat."
Begin with, "You know, there are a few minor issues we have, I mean, it's somewhat bothersome about the you know odor orf decay. Let me give you a tip..."
Draw blades, and give him the tip of your sword.. in the eye.
That or hire assassins, or go to the sheriff and local lords. Turn him in to an order of paladins. Present the evidence, hire a cleric to speak with dead on the dead paladin, Make him burn.
[/Rant]
But that's just wishful thinking. Based on what I've read here, and my own thinking, my plan is to email the other player that's expressed IC unease with the undead (in his words, its scares the crap out of his character). I'll ask him what he thinks about turning in the necromancer to the local authorities - the two of us had discussed this as a possibility as the necromancer was fighting the paladins in case we had to find a way to clear our names. If he OOCly think it's a good idea I'll tell the DM that while my character is in town (he's crafting while I'm away) he notifies the local authories to set up a sting. It's completely in character and since he can't take out the necromancer alone, never mind with the undead minions, it's the easiest way for him to deal with him.
I do appreciate the words of support, I had been feeling like a bit of a heel for a while for being annoyed. I'm glad to know I wasn't off base for feeling like I was being taken advantage of. I'll update this thread when I do whatever it is I do so, hopefully, others can learn from this absurd little encounter.
If it does play out, realize also that any DM worth anything will have the good guys HELP you, but in the end your PCs, as heroes will have to confront him, undead and all, not some high level paladin. You guys will have to lay the PVP final blows if it goes there.
It won't typically be Call for the law and they show up and take over the case, that's bad writing, and doesn't do justice to the real heroes.
So you yourself should look at taking him down.. consult with clerics get scrolls of protection vs evil, potions of restoration, etc, NPC clerics to turn his undead.
See it that this is a BBEG, that the party has been given the mission of taking down this guy, it so happens you have been working close to him, and know his methods, strengths, and weaknesses.
Once he slew a paladin, THEN as the topper raised ihm as a minion, he's a bad guy and in my book No longer a PC, and "gone over to the dark side."
Good luck.
The fact that you are trying to be non-commital and negotiate stands as a good testament to your generosity, or, at the very least, your willingness to maintain party cohesion. That's noble of you. This other player, isn't.
The fact that he is so very flippant about the whole scenario smacks of disregard for the other PCs, the player component especially. It's putting them (and you) in an awkward position which will ultimately evolve into a downward spiral. This doesn't have to end badly though, but the conclusion is likely to have an arguement that gets "beyond words".
Now, you must bear in mind the social aspect of this game. Not all good weekend buddies or anything. Just gaming contemporaries. That, to some, affords more "creative liberties" that others might find dubious. These aren't your close friends, so the out of game loyalty isn't going to get you the same rapport that good gaming friends would. ie) He's gonna' pull this kinda' crap cuz' he has more leverage to do so and no real incentive in making friends.
I got nothing against evil PCs. Very compelling, can be better than your default "good hero campaigns" too. I like fresh blood now and again. But he's not really trying. If this PC were so smart (Wzd->Int?), he'd be more discrete, try and earn your trust, manipulate you to safeguard himself, whatever. He's wreckless and egocentric, dangerous qualities in even a LG PC. It is very likely this matter will be resolved w/ judicious violence, and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it either, you know?
-He's forced your (all of your) hand(s)
-Forcing more game time onto him instead of an equal distribution of DM's attention
-Totally making bonehead calls even for an NPC evil necro. Is he trying to get caught and act the fool?
-Dick move: new game/new gamers, put them in compromising positions? Best foot forward, always. What's more important? A sense of satisfaction of some imaginary persona in a fake world, or making more real world friends that will likely lead to better/more gaming down the road? New gamers/gaming group is like an investment...want it to grow and make more.
"Do you hear that Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability."
It's gonna' get ugly I'm afraid. Just stress it's not personal (despite some of it being so; keep a brave face on things), "This is what my PC would do."
Good luck
QFT.
To the OP.
My advice is for step 1 to be getting support from the other PCs who dislike his behaviour. Frankly, you are asking him to change his character, and if it is just 1-vs-1 then he has just as much right to say you should change yours.
Step 2 is to try the OOC approach first. Obviously undermining/betraying/attacking his character without a word will lead to some bad blood. If the matter is discussed and he is willing to modify/adjust his character to be more party-friendly, that may be avoided.
As you said, a drow wizard merely raises eyebrows. The problem is a reckless evil destructive necromancer who is impossible to work with.
Explain to him the position he is putting you in. He needs to understand that your options are either a confrontation or to go along with the one evil PC, since the rest of you did not sign on for an evil campaign, that will mean a confrontation.
Assuming no success, Step 3 is to turn him in to the authorities ASAP. With support from the others. Frankly if Step 2 fails, he is probably intending to betray you as soon as possible, so do not give him that chance.
If all of that fails, I have an online rp where your character would be welcome to join.
My bit of advice. Your DM has essentially given you guys the thumbs up to off the Necromancer. Get the support of the rest of the players, don't try to resolve this OOC with the Necromancer, if he has not noticed that people are annoyed with his BS talking to him ain't gonna change it. Inform the DM between sessions that the next time the Necromancer goes to sleep/reverie the lot of you are gonna use him as a pinata and find out what the prize is. After meat is back on the menu, inform the Necromancers player his ******** is not appreciated. He probably won't take this too well, but if your DM had any balls you woul dnot have this problem. Don't waste your time hoping it works out, it won't.
Frankly all of this is assumed or guessed, and acting on assumed or guessed information without speaking to the people involved for confirmation will lead to misunderstandings.
I am not saying the other player doesn't deserve it, I am saying that this approach will mean both of you are being disruptive. Which weakens your position and makes things worse for all concerned.
He has not taken the hint. Should he have? Hints are subtle. Hints are indirect. Hints are not really talking about it. Until you directly discuss the matter with him, including outling why it bothers you, then you have not actually discussed it with him.
For all he knows, the conflict might just be part of the game. He might think that the player conflict is less disruptive than it is. You don't know what he is thinking. Repeat because this is important, you do not know what he is thinking. You can only guess. Do you really want to kill off someone else's character over a guess?
Killing other party members in their sleep does not solve anything. Do that, and a precedent is set. Party members start killing each other and soon they will end up spending more time killing each other than the monsters.
Pudding I implore you, do not take the quoted approach. This other player is making the game less fun for other people, do not start doing the same thing as well.
If discussions fail, and the necromancer becomes an enemy, fair enough. What is different is that you have not started a trend of attacking other party members.
It is my opinion that trying to solve this problem in charcater is pretty much doomed to fail.
I'd say the solution is to stop hinting and start telling. You should explain to the player, your DM and indeed the rest of the group that the character is ruining the game for you, and go from there.
Easy answer "Ok Necro guy, we are not gonna hang around with you anymore, this whole raise our buddy as an evil minion thing is not cool, and we don't trust you not to do it to us. Normally we would kill you where you stand for this, but you have saved our hide a few times so we are just kicking you out. Take a hike"
Then have all the PCs simply refuse to adventure with the dude. If he keeps following explain out of game "dude, we kicked your guy out, and are considering him an evil npc from now on, if he keeps hanging out we will kill him. Reroll as someone who will get along with us, and we will be glad to bring your new PC around."
Don't make a stink about it complaining and whining about it, but be pretty firm, and say "look we are not doing evil this game. Maybe next time."
*Of course my advice is to come after you do the obvious
1- Get the opinion of the other players and make sure you have a majority.
2- tell the player, and ask them to do something.
3- tell the DM, and ask them to do something.
Next time he raises some undead in your presence, sink your sword in his squishy drow backside...
Ok for us necromancy is not smexy at all.
How bout next time he raises undead kill him?
What is different is that you have not started a trend of attacking other party members.
He's not a party member, he's a BBEG, at this point.
The Party just hasn't figured it out yet, nor did the DM nor the Drow Necro tell them.
This guy doesn't CARE. He told them he's a drow, well a drow wizard. Bait and switch, clearly.
Kerym Ammath and Krusk have it. The guy needs to go.
Playing nice won't do it.
To fight monsters, one has to become one.
That or OOC say, "Look gen up a new pc, yeah, we aren't doing evil. This is a drow necro, not welcome at all."
That or OOC say, "Look gen up a new pc, yeah, we aren't doing evil. This is a drow necro, not welcome at all."
No reason to do it OOC. I'd do in IC. The DM has clearly given them the "go for it" to knocking off the wizard.
Set up an ambush with the rest of the party, catch him off his guard surrounded by the rest of the party, and off him.
He may get mad, but the DM won't, and I say screw the wizard player anyway if he wants to get mad. he deserves what he gets, and in this case he deserves a Holy Avenger sticking through his body.
No reason to do it OOC. I'd do in IC. The DM has clearly given them the "go for it" to knocking off the wizard.
Set up an ambush with the rest of the party, catch him off his guard surrounded by the rest of the party, and off him.
He may get mad, but the DM won't, and I say screw the wizard player anyway if he wants to get mad. he deserves what he gets, and in this case he deserves a Holy Avenger sticking through his body.
Oh, I'm certain he'll get mad. I have yet to see a player who plays the Blatantly Evil Douchebag not get upset when he's actually called on the carpet for it.
The real problem is that the drow's player is being an Attention Hog. He's requiring the rest of the party to shape the adventure around his character. Talk to the DM. Tell him you're not having fun. Tell the player you don't appreciate how his actions force everyone to work around his character.
Talk about it. You're not an immature child that throws mud in someone's lunchbox because you think they don't like you. You're an adult, so handle this the way adults are supposed to handle problems. Talk it over with the DM and the other player. Ask the rest of the group if they enjoy the necromancer as is, or if they'd enjoy the game more if the necromancer was less aggressive in pursuing center stage. If the group agrees with you, present this to both the DM and the player individually. Explain that this isn't fun for everyone.
Maybe the rest of the group enjoys it, despite in-character unease with the undead raising. If that's the case you've only got two choices. Either you accept that this game won't be your favorite and play it anyways, or you can accept that this game won't be something you want to play in and politely leave the group.
Don't go flit about in secret meetings and surprise the DM and the player with this passive-aggresive act that will frustrate and alienate the necromancer's player. It's childish and no way to handle something that could range all the way from a mean-spirited bullying to a gross misunderstanding. You can't expect people to pick up on your personal feelings if you haven't voiced them. Don't act like the offending party is a mind reader thats belligerently ignoring your discomfort for the fun of it.
The necromancer's player is an adult and deserves to be treated like one. Not expressing your discomfort clearly and politely is a passive-aggressive behavior that loses you the opportunity to make friends that don't automatically think the same way you do. Ignore the multiple suggestions that this person is 'just a jerk' and treat them like an adult. They might be a jerk, they might have a personality that doesn't mesh well with yours, or they might be a nice person that plays differently who you could get along with very well. You're not perfect, don't expect someone else to be.
one game session when the necromancer was absent the DM told us about some 'dangers' that could be used to cripple the necromancer, like an attack that drains his Charisma, thus allowing the undead he controls to rampage.
Based on the fact that my advice resulted in a stream of humane arguments, let me clarify some points. 1) As noted above the DM has given his tacit approval, even actively advised on how to deal with the offending necromancer, in essence recommending an in game solution to something that is apparently even a problem for him. 2) By this reference the DM does not have the balls to solve it himself or perhaps he has no idea how to deal with it regardless the best option is for the DM to discuss the issue with the player. He has apparently chosen not to, hence leaving it to the players to resolve. 3) No mention is made of any of the players having a personal issue with the necromancers player, and it appears that the player who is asking the question seems less than willing to approach this from an OOC perspective. 4) Most people really don't want to be told how to roleplay their character, or to be singled out in front of a group, and often the results of this are less than optimal, especially when the DM (who is the accepted authority won't do it). 5) There are plenty of in character reasons for the rest of the party to want the necromancer to have a terminal case of death, and since better methods are not going to be employed resolving the problem an in character solution is entirely appropriate.
The fact of the matter is that this is a problem the DM should resolve, he has left all his players in a less than optimal situation, I have just pointed this out. A quick mostly painless solution is the best that can be hoped for considering the lack of options, hence my advice.
I'm sure the dm can sic a few palidens after the guy unless he tones it down.
He's not a party member, he's a BBEG, at this point.
The Party just hasn't figured it out yet, nor did the DM nor the Drow Necro tell them.
He's a BBEG when and only when the player releases control of his character. Until then he's PC, just a disruptive PC.
Paladin slaying and zombie making are big time BBEG activities. Seriously. I'm not kidding.
kudos for the invention of the new PrC: Blatantly Evil Douchebag.
If I'd have room in my sig, i'd add that one. Call it honorarily sigged.
Disruptive is a rogue pickpocketing a minor item.
Paladin slaying and zombie making are big time BBEG activities. Seriously. I'm not kidding.
kudos for the invention of the new PrC: Blatantly Evil Douchebag.
If I'd have room in my sig, i'd add that one. Call it honorarily sigged.
None of that changes the fact that the player has not released control of his character, therefore attacking the character means open season on PCs.
Killing off player-controlled characters only creates more problems. If one player is causing trouble for the group then causing trouble yourself will only escalate matters.
None of that changes the fact that the player has not released control of his character, therefore attacking the character means open season on PCs.
This often leads to real world conflict as many, particularly guys like this one (egocentric, self-indulgent) cannot easilly seperate an RPG persona from RL. That is, they take it personally and are so far detached they can't possibly understand how they might have provoked someone else.
They project upon other people failing to internalize that they are the guilty party.
And this is just in game too. Imagine how horrible it is to date, work w/, or be related to these super douche bags...assuming anyone would stoop low enough to date or employ one...sadly though, many are birthed on the family tip.
Killing off player-controlled characters only creates more problems. If one player is causing trouble for the group then causing trouble yourself will only escalate matters.
Yes, I think it is perhaps more constructive to kill the player rather than his PC. I know, you're having a hard time adjusting to this, but it's not exactly murder and you'd be doing a service for the rest of your friends, the gaming community at large, and most of this person's contemporaries/contacts.
Perhaps the good old, "He slipped on some dice on the floor, broke neck."
"Fell on my pencil 5 or 6 times."
"Chewed on too many old school lead minis."
"Mercy killing; his nerd rage caused him to be a loose cannon."
Whatever. Just find a good pig farmer, an airtight committment from the rest of the party, vat of acid, something. No body = no murder.
That and it can't be reanimated, 'natch! ;) He'd want it that way...
Perhaps the good old, "He slipped on some dice on the floor, broke neck."
"Fell on my pencil 5 or 6 times."
"Chewed on too many old school lead minis."
"Mercy killing; his nerd rage caused him to be a loose cannon."
Exactly, we could always try a magic trick. :D
Exactly, we could always try a magic trick. :D
Ha! Nice job/respect.
My favorite scene ("Dark Knight")...no CGI needed, good writing, good line delivery, no over-the-top gimmicky crap. Simple, dare-I-say, pointed? Heh. Perhaps Ledger really was the sacrificial lamb to make it so kick ass...
Anyway, perhaps you should kickstart a new thread under the moniker of "Gaming Accidents" given this "new direction". Just imagine the flood of posts like:
-Errant d20 to the eye, no Blind DM'ing feat available
-Pet deficated all over the battle map
-Pizza delivery guy thought "gaming/war" room was some Operation Mayhem scheme
-Open brawling over who gets the captain's chair, last Coke, item 'x'
etc. etc.
Seriously. I'm not kidding.
kudos for the invention of the new PrC: Blatantly Evil Douchebag.
If I'd have room in my sig, i'd add that one. Call it honorarily sigged.
Thank you.
Whew, typing on a PSP takes forever.
Yes? Kill him.
At this point the DM is probably laughing his/her ass off watching everyone but the Drow Necro struggle with their indecisive actions.
Look, if the DM is allowing this then he is waiting for YOU guys to do something in character. You play a Lawful Good Paladin, correct? Have you witnessed him doing evil acts?
Yes? Kill him.
At this point the DM is probably laughing his/her ass off watching everyone but the Drow Necro struggle with their indecisive actions.
Or the DM is not good at tackling issues directly. I'm sure that earlier in the thread there is mention of the DM planning to take action - indirect and ineffective action, but reason to believe he is not deliberately allowing this.
And oh yes, maybe the other PCs are not interested in a game where we kill each other in our sleep. Once that line is crossed, it becomes very difficult to actually get stuff done.
And oh yes, maybe the other PCs are not interested in a game where we kill each other in our sleep. Once that line is crossed, it becomes very difficult to actually get stuff done.
QFT.
Another common trait in people who play the Blatantly Evil Douchebag, and get called on it, is for their next character to exist for the sole purpose of getting overwrought, over-dramatic, and mostly unexplainable revenge for their fallen Douchebag.
The necro crossed the line. Therefore, the bomb has already gone off, the fallout is already there. The heroes just have to stride through it on the way out.
Saying "it's gonna be open Season on PCs" doesn't solve the problem. That the party didn't create.
It's open season on the one player's PC that decided to be a game wrecking jagoff.
If this were a movie, the heroes would thus be tasked with, what, exactly?
Killing the blatant party turncoat / treacherous bastage.
I posit that the theme of OP's game (forced into it by the necro) is no longer
"heroic adventure, and treasure seeking."
It is thus, "becoming a monster to fight one",
or "let's all knuckle under to utter disgusting evil, because we're all so afraid to do anything that might solve it, we'll just adapt to evil's paradigm."
The party cannot remain somewhat goodly aligned PC "Heroes", and just tolerate this total BS gameplay.
If the game is thus not about being heroic, then the OP missed the boat, in that the game he actually signed up for is not D&D according to the traditional heroic model.
Another common trait in people who play the Blatantly Evil Douchebag, and get called on it, is for their next character to exist for the sole purpose of getting overwrought, over-dramatic, and mostly unexplainable revenge for their fallen Douchebag.
This is an excellent point, and the best reason to make sure that you speak with both the DM and the problem player beforehand.
The first step is to make sure you're backed up by a couple of other players, so that it's clearly a majority opinion. The second is to address the point directly with the DM: "Hey, we're going to lean on [necromancer's player]. He's actively disrupting the game with his current PC, and it's a problem for us. We're going to ask him to retire and bring in a new PC, and if he refuses, we're turning him in. Is that cool with you?"
(As a side note, it seems as if he's the sort of guy who thinks problems will work themselves out in-game without his interference. That's not necessarily a bad stance--he'll probably green-light any action you initiate--but it means you can't count on a lot of support if a similar situation erupts again.)
The last step is to actually confront the guy. You don't have to be mean about it, and in fact I'd recommend staying neutral and as friendly as possible even if he starts to lose his cool. The key part here is to make sure that you've done everything you can to avoid escalating the situation with the troublesome player.
Party had an overpowered drow necromancer who killed the paladin PC of a fellow player when he tried to help a victim of said drow. This along with many many acts of munchkinism and downright selfish acts (both in and out of character) When I heard about that before I came in, I knew things were off. So I made a drow priestess (true necromancer) and eventually betrayed and supplanted the fool. Felt good. It's player left the group and we all happily moved on to an even more disastrous game (another story, rather long. suffice to say, half of us seceded from the main group due to our DM being
).I agree with talking to the DM first. Then the other players, and then said player. If the dude won't relent, smite his PC's *****!
Most people (I believe) join a gaming group thinking they won't be killed in their sleep because they are part of the group. Many also (I believe) think the standard format is for their group to be the "good guys" and they'll do mostly good acts as they save the whatever, even if they have evil tendancies. Telling the OP to go PVP is just as bad as the other guy starting out blatently evil!
This is the DM's fault for not being explicit about the social contract, ie, what exactly will be allowed in game. It is also his fault for not taking everyone outside the game to discuss it now. DM's reasons why don't matter, it becomes the OP's job to do this. Please don't deal with this in game, because it is the characters created that are the problem, not just their actions in game.
At the start of the next game, if you come back and things are the same, Say "Hey guys, I think I misunderstood what this game was about, and what type of characters would fit best. I think we need to talk about it now before my PC and X's PC start acting in character and try to kill each other."
An evil character has been allowed, just roll with it, but don't attack him just because it doesn't fit a narrow, white knight heroics view of the game. Give it time and you may come to enjoy a taste of the left hand path.
He's animating the corpses of party members, and getting the party into fights with NPC law-enforcement. His IC justification for this classically Chaotic Stupid behavior is, essentially, "nyah nyah, you can't stop me". You seriously advocate just rolling with it?
Either go with it or have characters refuse to adventure with him. No need to bring pvp into it.
I'd definitely leave PvP as a very last resort. But if the DM won't take action (outside of suggesting PvP tactics to the rest of the party), and the problem player won't swap characters or step out, your choices have become awfully narrow.
Also, if you're a D&D player in K'zoo, there's a fairly large chance that we've met in person. PM me. :D
Anything goes, as approved by the DM.
In this game, the DM is allowing Necro guy to act at will. Why admonish the players for responding?
It's an Evil vs. Good, moving to evil game now.
DM's fault.
Or, scrap the whole deal, boot the player, reset from go.
Or, take action in game, Bad guy rolls up another PC. Because he is in fact, a bad guy.
I mean, if you don't adventure with him either everyone splits up and there's a side campaign without him...or the campaign falls apart.
Not so much, what actually happens is that there is a campaign without him, and has to reroll as someone who fits the party if he wants to keep playing.
Or
He he goes home.
Im usually ok with either of these as a player or DM, when one of the PCs is pulling things like this.
What are the other players, and your, character's classes? I could see if the others are "holy"-like characters why it would be a problem... but if you are a group of fighters, rogue, rangers, wizards and druids and whatnot, then why would your characters have such a dislike for Necros that you would kill him because he is doing what his character is supposed to do?
I've had a Lawful Good Paladin and a Lawful Evil Necromancer get along... I mean, they hated each other pretty hardcore and argued IC a lot about certain things, but they didn't physically fight beyond their first meeting. (After which, due to certain circumstances, they had to adventure together, they talked to each other and made an agreement. The Necro would keep his nercomancer-ing to a minimum, and the paladin would keep other pallys and stuff away from him, while being able to also keep an eye on the necro). And it worked out... the necro had control of himself, unlike the idiot the OP is dealing with, but still, opposite alignments can work together well is they act in an adult manner. Hell, the Necro would Raise Dead enemies, and after the fight, he would just make the undead stand and be killed by the pally and other party members. (Who were; a LN Druid (The necro's sister), CN Fighter, and a CN Ranger). However, if the pally would have been on a super undead hating god, it would not have worked out... he was a pally of Kord, I think... something like that.
Seeing that Necromancers are not inherently evil, and are (most of the time) inherently N, LN, or LE the party should be okay with him in that manner. Necromancers are like druids, they want to keep balance, but Necros want to maintain the balance of life and death, and they dislike waste, so they use bodies of the dead to do things, instead of letting those bodies go to waste. The spells might be [Evil], but if the person understood how to play a normal Necro, he himself wouldn't be evil, or at the very least he would be LE. (Yeah, there are E and CE necros, but those are hated even among other necros because an E or CE necro is probably just a power hungry person who wanted a quickly built, easily controlled army to gather that power, or they wish only to throw the balance of life and death out the window, just like those evil druids that kill plants and animals and make horrible monstrosities out of them.)
You should REALLY try to reach some sort on inter-party treaty on how he acts... like with the LG and LE dudes I was talking about. Tell him that he can keep doing the things he enjoys doing, but tone it down, and keep control. There is no need to go beyond that, anything more, and you are being crappy players and the DM is being a horrible DM for forcing the guy to RP the way you want him too. Killing him outright is about the most dick-ish, douche baggy, move you could pull on him, especially if he honestly doesn't see it coming. Just imagine, you are playing a character and you like the dude/chick, then suddenly everyone, out of the blue, kills you and tells you that you have to make something that THEY want you to play... you would be ******, and feel pretty singled out and hated. Hell, you would probably come onto these forums and complain about being killed or kicked from your party, and everyone here would be agreeing with you that it was unfair.
Yeah, he is apparently an idiot, but rather then allowing him to continue being an idiot... make him aware of this idiocy of his. "Hey, we were talking, and we were going to kill your PC or force you out of the group and then also force you to roll up a new character, so we are going to explain what made us want to kill you or kick you from the group. But rather then kill you, because, that would be dick. And rather then force you to make a new character, because then we would be forcing you to play something you did not wanna play as, and that would be a douche bag move on our parts. We are going to try to compromise with you. Lay off raising dead so much, and stop doing stupid, evil-ish acts in public. If you do that, you can keep playing as your current character, the game continues without a hitch, no one will take anything personally OOC and I will stop crying about you on the Wizards Forums because I cannot do anything by myself or think for myself."
Complaining because another player is an idiot, and not instantly taking action is, in of itself, an idiotic move. However, how did you guys even start adventuring together, chance meeting and you decided to form up? Cause if that is the case, you brought it upon yourself by not first getting to know each other IC, and by not discussing your characters OOC before the game...
Honestly, if something this small, and simple, is making it no fun to play, you should stop playing with other people and play by yourself so that everything goes the way you want it to all of the time...
I had to remove a lot of content from this thread that violated the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code here: http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php.
It's best to avoid stigmatizing any real life group.
(Snip.)
All I can say is, your DM was being VERY lenient in letting your Paladin keep his powers.
Or just have someone with the appropriate level of summon monster drop a celestial or fiendish beluga whale on top of him. I'm sure he'll die from the crushing damage, and even if he doesn't, I'm not sure he'll know who did dropped it on him.
In addition to just being a necromancer and raising the dead, he has commited other inherently evil acts, like killing paladins and raising dead party members as his undead minions.
You've got to admit that's kind of funny. I played a evil necromancer in a good party but never had the balls to raise friendly corpses as minions.
Seriously, the problem here is you have been HINTING instead of communicating. In real life, yes, the necromancer would be killed in his sleep but you're playing a game with friends/aquaintences and that means feelings.
Do this IC or OOC but it must be done like next session. Talk to the other PCs before and then just have an honest and candid conversation.
"Umm, I'm like bound by an oath not to adventure with people who raise dead comrades as minions so, I like won't kill you in your sleep bc/ we've adventured together but you've got to go...like now."
Other PCs: "Yeah, we can;t take seeing Sir Brave Lou as a rotting corpse anymore. Later."
He either atones (yeah, you're a paladin), fights you (yeah, XP), or leaves with noone to blame but himself.
If he gets all upset remind him gently that he like has former allies as walking corpses (however funny that may be from an evil standpoint) which you need not be St. Teresa to recognize is problematic. If he still is upset, your better off not gaming with him.