Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 fly666monkey May 07, 2008 18:57:17	I'm in a Roleplaying conundrum. My Character is a NG human cleric to Bahamut who is (Very close) friends with a Succubus that he grew up with. Said succubus was raised by humans and never met her demonic parents, so she has a NG alignment despite being an Outsider(Chaotic, Evil). How should I have her role-played? Would her ancestry have an effect on her personality at all? Any advice would help. P.S. Both characters are 19, if it helps.
#2 guyrtheadamantineone May 07, 2008 19:06:47	I'm in a Roleplaying conundrum. My Character is a NG human cleric to Bahamut who is (Very close) friends with a Succubus that he grew up with. Said succubus was raised by humans and never met her demonic parents, so she has a NG alignment despite being an Outsider(Chaotic, Evil). How should I have her role-played? Would her ancestry have an effect on her personality at all? Any advice would help. P.S. Both characters are 19, if it helps. First, normally (If that word has any power against fluff issues), succubuses are born adult from the bowels of the Abyss. Second, these subtypes means she is Chaotic Evil so deep its written on her cells. She should've been a very sexually awakened child and the kind to tear kittens apart to the color of their hearts (How cute!). If anything, to be playable, you should put the subtypes off. I guess its your call really.
#3 fly666monkey May 07, 2008 19:11:18	First, normally (If that word has any power against fluff issues), succubuses are born adult from the bowels of the Abyss. Second, these subtypes means she is Chaotic Evil so deep its written on her cells. She should've been a very sexually awakened child and the kind to tear kittens apart to the color of their hearts (How cute!). If anything, to be playable, you should put the subtypes off. Technically, havingaligned subtypes does NOT mean you have said alignment (Though it is the norm.) How would she react growing up knowing what she was, and how would she still be able to hold a CG alignment her whole life? What's more, how can my Cleric Justify having relations with her, even if she isn't evil like her kin?
#4 novabomb May 07, 2008 19:14:28	Technically, havingaligned subtypes does NOT mean you have said alignment (Though it is the norm.) How would she react growing up knowing what she was, and how would she still be able to hold a CG alignment her whole life? What's more, how can my Cleric Justify having relations with her, even if she isn't evil like her kin? You did say they were childhood friends. Why do you believe there need be any more justification than that?
#5 fly666monkey May 07, 2008 19:15:51	You did say they were childhood friends. Why do you believe there need be any more justification than that? Well, they are adventurers, so not everyone in every town knows that, and most people won't bother to ask.
#6 guardian1 May 07, 2008 19:17:59	I don't look at it in quite that way. Yes, a succubus has the Chaotic and Evil subtypes. However, half-demons do, too, and last time I checked, they (half-demons) don't have to be evil. The way I look at this situation is this succubus has spent so much time being friends with the cleric that she (the succubus) tries to suppress her demonic impulses, and that long ago the cleric became a surrogate conscience for the succubus. Judging from what the Draconomicon says about Bahamut placing a huge emphasis on compassion and empathy, one of his human clerics acting as a conscience for a demon making a sincere attempt at redemption (which seems to be a good way to roleplay this) seems to be perfectly in line with Bahamut's dogma.
#7 guyrtheadamantineone May 07, 2008 19:27:28	Technically, havingaligned subtypes does NOT mean you have said alignment (Though it is the norm.) I'm sorry, but do you think these subtypes are for show? There is no creature whose alignment differ from its subtype. Subtypes means you are s deeply imbued with a specific alignment spells and abilities react specifically for your case. It would make no sense that an good spell designed to blow up evil accidently blow the guy who's not evil but got bad blood. Just ditch the evil subtype. How would she react growing up knowing what she was, and how would she still be able to hold a CG alignment her whole life? What's more, how can my Cleric Justify having relations with her, even if she isn't evil like her kin? You say they are childhood friends, in a fictionnal setting. I can easily see him getting past her origins because of the thrust they share for each other. She shouldn't have to''hold'' a Chaotic Good alignment, as it suppose she pretend being it. If she is Chaotic Good, there's good chances she'll stay Chaotic Good.
#8 fly666monkey May 07, 2008 19:37:22	Thanks guardian1, I'm trying hard not to make her a "play thing" like most people perceive succubi to be. However, I'd like to know what her personality would be like, considering she has to fight both her impulses and prejudice from society. ps. GuyrtheadmantineOne, please leave this thread, you are not helping just trolling.
#9 doomsought May 07, 2008 20:00:17	Alu-demon = half succubus. +4 la From crystalkeep SRD: Alu-Demon (sentient creature who has a Succubus as one parent) (DR355 p010) Look hideous, often with dark scales, horns, and often bat wings. Can be applied to any living, corporeal creature with at least a 4 Intelligence & a non-Good alignment Becomes an ‘Outsider (native)’ Always has an Evil alignment All have bat wings which allows Flying (average maneuverability) at the creature’s ground speed. Base Skill Points are now (8+Int mod) * (Racial HD+3) Natural Armor bonus increases by +1 Str +2 Dex +4 Con +4 Int +2 Cha +6 Lvl +4 up to 5 HD, CR +1 6-10 HD, CR +2 11+HD, CR +3 Darkvision 60’. Immune to Poison. Spell Resistance of HD + 10 (max. 35). Natural Weapons are considered ‘magic’ for purposes of overcoming another creature’s Damage Reduction. if 11HD or less, gain Damage Reduction 5/magic. if 12HD or more, gain Damage Reduction 10/magic. Acid, Cold, Electricity, & Fire Resistance 10. Gain a Touch Attack that does 1d6 + Charisma modifier Negative Energy damage, which heals the Alu-Demon ½ of the damage. Usable once per round. If the base creature’s Intelligence or Wisdom is 8+ or the base creature has at least two spell-like abilities, it can use the following abilities (DC is Charisma-based): HD Spell-Like Ability 1-2 Charm Person (3/day) 3-4 Detect Thoughts (3/day) 5-6 Suggestion (3/day) 7-8 Polymorph (humanoid only) (3/day) 9-10 Dimension Door (1/day) 11-12 Blasphemy (1/day) 13-14 Unholy Aura (3/day), Unhallow (1/day) 15-16 Horrid Wilting (1/day) 17-18 Summon Monster IX (fiends only) (1/day) 19+ Destruction (1/day)
#10 redhairedwitch May 07, 2008 21:45:25	Who raised you guys? Did her "parents" try to keep her from her natural wicked ways ala Carrie's Mom? Maybe you have witnessed her struggle to be good all her life, maybe you even converted her?
#11 auspex7 May 07, 2008 22:21:52	count me among the baffled @ a NG succubus. i guess it's your DM's call, but... Succubi are of the Abyss. that's not to say they're like drow, who are *from* the underdark. it is to say that they are quite literally birthed from, and part of, the Abyss. 100% of succubi should be CE. i'm all for the DM license to do anything they want, but as a DM, this isn't something i would ever change.
#12 malek2991 May 07, 2008 22:22:31	Just a heads up, in savage species it states a creature can rarely have an alignment that differs from their alignment subtypes, but spells and other abilities that rely on alignment use the creatures alignment subtypes or actual alignment whichever is worse. (Meaning if a cleric casted Holy Word, she'd be affected as an evil outsider, while if a different cleric casted Unholy Blight she'd be affected as any other good creature (not as a good outsider cause she doesn't have the good subtype)). Also there is a ritual in Savage Species that can change her alignment subtypes if she performs it.
#13 Demetri_Knighthawk May 07, 2008 22:52:27	kind of a wierd example, in the anime Inuyasha, the main male lead is a half demon who is basicly chaotic evil (given from what limited background we are given before kikyo) and the female lead is a human priestess who is generaly lawful to neutral good. it seems that the female generaly acts as his humanity and consience to steer him away from chaos and evil to at least neutral good over a number of seasons. perhaps she can start as CE and after each level up she is changed one step closer to LG?
#14 MrCustomer May 07, 2008 23:31:00	Well she is the Evil Sub-type, which means that Evil is her natural state and impulse. Although, yes she could learn otherwise, she is still naturaly Evil and being otherwise is against her core nature. Being non-evil could cause some serious mental issues. Being raised by "good" parents will damage her emmotionally and mentally. I will put this another way, so as you understand. A normal human is naturaly good, this is a healthy environment and state of mind. Morals and values are natural among humans. They are actually hardwired into our brain and it takes negative influences for humans to act otherwise. A good example of this is killing. The brain of any creature refuses to kill it's own kind, it is in our very nature not to kill. It takes considerable effort to overcome this inclination and to actually kill our own species. How we are able to do this is by breaking down that mental barrier. Desensitizing ourselves to violence, or training (such as in the military) or justifying the action (such as defending ourselves or others) Even so, killing our own species is still damaging, soldier's suffering traumadic stress, guilt etc. Going against this natural instinct isn't just hard, but is also harmful to ourselves. Even those who come to terms with it don't like killing, they have just come to terms with having to kill, such as a soldier who fights a war to defend his country. Likewise those who kill, their own species, such as serial killers, violent criminals etc, are generally the result of severe anti-social behavioral problems. There is something wrong with their brains. The problem is from many different things, desensitized to violence, mental state ruined with drugs etc, they might be sociopaths (somethign is actually wrong with the brain) social problems caused by abuse, intence stress, severe desentitization (such as soldiers might expereince in prolonged combat). Now lets flip this to the Succubus' point of view. The succubus' natural state is Evil, there is no "killing is wrong" or "love is good, hate is bad" "sex is an act of love" or "take care of babies" or "if you love someone be good to them"or other such instinct in her, the succubus brain is not hardwired with this. Instead it is hardwired with the complete opposite. "killing is right and pleasurable", "babies are tasty" and "sex is an act of violence" and "pain and suffering is pleasure" Raising her otherwise would confuse the succubus and damage her mentally. Just as much as abusing a child would damage them. While that seems extreme, it puts it into perspective. While a succubus could be raised to be non-evil, it would still have to fight it's natural instincts. A succubus could be non-evil, I am just illustrating how difficult it would be and the problems they might face. My suggestion would be that the Succubus while non-evil struggles with her base instincts and urges. NG is probably laying it on thick, I would suggest the Succubus be CN or True Neutral, which would allow her to vent her more base urges without risking her allignment. Another suggetsion is instead of relying entirely on her parentage, that a earthbound love interest might be an idea. Her devotion for a particular person keeps her grounded from being non-evil, since being evil would ultimately cause her to loose him.
#15 dead_pool May 07, 2008 23:41:27	you could start her out as a CE character who is struggling to fight her nature to appease some one whom she respects from child hood, then (hopefully early on) slap a helm of allignment change on her making her LG, possibly have her become a palidin. a succubus pallie, finaly a pallidin that sounds interesting.
#16 calronmoonflower May 08, 2008 0:48:46	According to the Monster Manuel creatures with the always alignment can very from that alignment, but it is rare. Also WotC introduced an succubus paladin, so the alignment isn't locked for them. I'd recommend that the Sanctify the Wicked spell (Book of Exalted Deeds page 106) and the sanctified creature template (page 186) be used as a baseline to help make this more believable.
#17 kelvinaw273 May 08, 2008 2:08:00	I think it likely that she would have a predisposition toward chaos and evil, it would be hard for her to understand the need for restraint, and hard to empathise with others, but not impossible. It would be like trying to teach an autistic child how to deal with social situations; it isn't impossible but they would find it very hard. At best, while you get a functioning individual, they have some idiosyncrasies that are well against the norm - she probably has no inhibitions at all concerning sex (and some kinky tastes), and a hair-trigger kill-instinct that kicks in in self defence. I can see her idea of 'helping' somebody may be embarrassing at best ... "You seduced the Count's daughter?!!" "Well you said to protect her last night, and so I had to be in the same room, and there was only the one bed, and she was cold ..." "But she's getting married next week!" "Is that important? She's technically still a virgin ..." "Who just declared she doesn't want to get married because she thinks she's a lesbian now ..." "Ooops."
#18 the_equalizer May 08, 2008 9:45:02	The Evil subtype is there to determine how certain spells effect that creature, it is not a rule that justifies it's alignment.
#19 shinikama May 08, 2008 10:16:01	You say they are childhood friends, in a fictionnal setting. I can easily see him getting past her origins because of the thrust they share for each other. She shouldn't have to''hold'' a Chaotic Good alignment, as it suppose she pretend being it. If she is Chaotic Good, there's good chances she'll stay Chaotic Good. I assume you mean trust, but thrust between them could be possible. I like the idea. As a DM, I'd let it happen, but most of the demonic abilities would be out the door, and I'd count her as a native outsider.
#20 high_octane May 08, 2008 10:22:32	Depends on whether the DM personally believes that the demonic tendency towards evil is physiological or cultural. Some DMs might believe that Succubus' and other Demons are mentally incapable of good will, lacking the necessary mental capacity for altruism or sympathy. Others might feel that if raised to feel sympathy and nobility, even a demon can learn to understand how to be a good person despite being at odds with themselves. Your DM may vary. kelvin's story made me lol.
#21 zuleika May 08, 2008 14:45:44	Well Im a believer of "Everything is possible". Please, look in the Monster Manual, and look for the Enrinyes. They were celestial angels, and now fallen to the dark side. I'm sure it can happens to Succubus. Succubus Paladin, That'd be awesome! But I'd go for a Holy Liberator!!!
#22 mooncalf May 08, 2008 14:49:48	Well, the general rule is that with creaures with 'usually alignment X/Y', roughly 70% adhere to alignment X/Y (and 30% don't) while with those with 'always alignment X/Y', all but maybe one in a million adhere to the alignment. Which means that there's always the chance of a rare one who's different. For adventurers, who *are* the roughly one in a million, this means they're the one who can deviate from the norm. You can be the one who is different, the one who strikes out on his/her own to follow their own moral and ethical compass and show the world your kind can be different. Dual scimitars and panther not included. Jokes aside, if the DM allows it, you can get away with it. Of course, people might get upset if they find out about the demon in their midst, but succubi can disguise themselves very well. I'm uncertain of her place in the adventure, though. You're saying she's a friend, but what's her role? Is she a secondary PC? Another player's PC? A cohort? An NPC you visit from time to time? As has been mentioned, demons don't grow up like humans do. A succubus don't have a childhood. She was either spawned as-is, or advanced from a lesser demon. Of course she might've used her alter form to appear as a child for all those years to trick you, but it doesn't strike me as a good thing to do, plus it's kinda pointless. I suggest you find a backstory that takes this into consideration. The whole 'raised on good values, has never known of evil' is a rather big leap of faith. I'd suggest a dramatic incident that made her reevaluate her moral standards, instead. But that's me. As for the subtype thing, yes, those double as extra alignments for the purpose of spells. Detect evil will find your friend, no matter how good she is. As for using the 'Sanctify the wicked' spell and getting the sanctified template... eech. Not only is the template virtually useless (you lose all your abilities, only a few of which can be considered evil, gain a handful of generic ones, and take a hefty LA to boot!), but I consider the spell to be magical brainwashing. 'Exalted' indeed.
#23 malignor May 08, 2008 15:05:54	Count me in with the "Aligned Subtype rules all" crowd. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that said Succubus has a Helm of Forced Alignment (NG) sovereign-glued to her head. From there I can move forward. Well any good deity would be ecstatic over having her as a cleric's buddy. True, she was hard-wired to use her body and her charisma to spread as much death, destruction, betrayal, fear and hatred as he possibly can for her endless lifetime... but that's different now. A NG Succubus would probably mix a bit of the old with the new. She'd still use what she's got (seduction, influence, deception, the power to drain life), but her goals and methods would be different. She'd be like the undercover agent working for the goodguys, infiltrating, exposing and weakening the forces of evil. She'd seduce the evil warlord and convince him to make some bad moves in the upcoming battle, while feeding strategic information to the good guys. She'd offer herself to the dragon in exchange for her companions' lives, then make her escape soon after. She wouldn't be focused on working within the rules, and isn't into tearing down the walls (protective or domineering) of society either. All she cares about is doing the right thing.
#24 StevenO May 08, 2008 16:42:58	For the Alignment vs. Subtype problem don't any of you remember the battle royal Wizards had run on the main website? The winner of one of those vote driven contests was a Succubus PALADIN!! Last time I checked a Paladin needs a LG alignment and a creature can't remove subtypes so it IS possible to have an alignment that disagrees with your subtypes. Now roleplaying such a character may be a slight challenge. Basically it can come down to the good aligned character waging an internal battle against her instinctive Chaotic Evil nature. Now this battle need not be apparent or have any effect on the game but it would be part of the character's background.
#25 doomsought May 08, 2008 17:19:05	I got the perfect Backstory to fix this! some 15 -19 years back she took the form of a child (alt form ability) most likely targeting a priest. on the way there she got into an unfortunate incident with a cow. after waking up from the cows kick she had amnesia and didn't know what she was. fast forward to a few months before the adventure starts, she gets her amnesia cured and the new personality comes out the winner.... for now. you could give her a bit of multiple personality and every once in a while make her make a will save or turn back to evil.
#26 sorcerer-random_dup May 08, 2008 19:18:15	Dual scimitars and panther not included. lol, I only read the first half of the first book for that. Back to topic, I think the succubus should be able to be CG or NG if you want her to (I've played games like Disgea and Makai Kingdom, and am a large supporter of the whole idea).
#27 auspex7 May 08, 2008 23:02:27	lets just go all the way with this and have you grow up with Malcanthet! yeeeeeehhhhhaaaaaawwwwwww!!!
#28 fly666monkey May 15, 2008 11:02:34	lets just go all the way with this and have you grow up with Malcanthet! yeeeeeehhhhhaaaaaawwwwwww!!! lol I like the ideas so far, thanks for the help!
#29 zombie_babies May 15, 2008 11:57:54	I am going to take a different tack and suggest that her "nurture" had a greater affect than her "nature". If she was brought up by goodly folk and educated as to her past to explain why people should never see her in her unaltered form and why, if they did, they would react violently or recoil in terror, then I would say she'd be very different than a lot have suggested. I believe that if she were good she would be afraid of sexual activity rather than embrace it. She wouldn't be a "kink", she'd be a prude. No garters and knee highs here, think flannel PJs. Why? If so much of her evil heritage focuses on sexuality for deception and corruption, how could she not fear herself slipping into that mold? She'd fear what she may be capable of and shy away from men in particular. She'd not wish to chance harming someone accidentally. I see her as never using the charisma she has unless something very important is going on or she is drawn from this shell in some way. She would trust the priest exclusively when on the road and use him as a buffer and protector from men that will seek her out. He will be her shield and active conscience to keep her from falling away from the path of good. She will prefer to be alone or with the priest when away from home. It will not be sexual, but she will find comfort in his familiarity and he will not lust after her due to their long friendship. This would be very interesting to play out due to it's complexity. Adventuring will be a huge challenge for her because of her beauty and charisma. She is a man magnet but would fear getting close. Sex will never happen- not even in an involuntary fashion. Have her played in a guarded and shy fashion. But the opportunity for her to lose control will eventually come up. I see a lot of drama in this partnership. It could be great for a ton of plot hooks. But it also may be too much. And easy to forget once you play a while. I see her as trying to be "just a girl" while having no idea of how to do it. She may, in fact, be unable to over the course of an adventure. It sounds like it will be fun. Just try to remember how she would react and try not to treat her like just another NPC and things should work out. As an aside, my last DM used the Paladin Succubus from that Wizards thing. It was a lot of fun. I was unable, unfortunately, to keep her alive. She died valiantly at my side.
#30 Johnathan_Vagabond May 15, 2008 14:12:22	As far as her character goes I've some ideas. 1) She usually gets her way. She works her pout, shyness, rebel-flair, or what-ever. She doesn't mean anything wrong by this, but like all other children she wants her way. Her charm and magic mean that she can. Despite this she respects her parents and friends who protect her from over-zealous evangelists. She would never use magic on them (lest it was dire need). 2) Energy Drain. She doesn't kiss anyone. She won't even give her parents a peck on the cheek. It's made her sad as she's tried to control it, but she can't. No hugs, wears long sleeves and gloves all the time. She might take up fighterhood because of the full body armor. But! She's a wonderful conversationalist. She can't have bodily contact but (instead of turning emo) she looks for philosophical and intellectual contact. 3) Rebel without a cause. Like it or not, she's a demon. "Keep your laws off my body!" No one tells her she can't do something. Telling her why its a bad idea works, or just saying they'd appreciate it if she didn't. (My wife is like this) But if you just say "No" get ready for trouble. Come hell or high water she will do exactly what you told her not to, because you told her not to. It's easy for her to cut off her nose to spite her face. Maybe she was already thinking about tithing to the church, but you told her she 'had' to. Now you can be that money will never see Bahamut's face so long as it lives (or until she calms down). 4) Shapeshift shapeshift shapeshift. Any small or medium sized humanoid. She doesn't need friends to stay entertained. If she gets bored she can just see what life is like for a halfling, or an elf, or a half-orc. She can just as easily see what it would be like to be taller or shorter or thinner or fatter. There's no such thing as an uncomfortable place to sit or lie down, she can provide her own 'padding' at will. "Gosh this chair is hard, I think its made of stone -shapechage a bigger butt- Thats better." For fun, she can get bobblehead or clown on herself. "I wonder what it'd be like to have really big feet and a round red nose. Ooh! I could be pastey white with an orange afro!" 5) Telepathy, Tongues. You know how people say "I just wish I knew what they really thought of me." She knows. She knows from 100ft away at that. You two can have a conversation about something without letting anyone else that can't read your mind in on it. "Pleased to meet you ambassador" He looks like a weasel "Ambassador, charmed I'm sure" Yeah, a weasel with a fat butt. Not to mention that no one can get around her knowing what they're talking about. She'll even understand a made up language that only the two of them know. And she can tell everyone else what they're saying without moving her mouth. HooHA!
#31 fly666monkey May 15, 2008 14:45:42	2) Energy Drain. She doesn't kiss anyone. She won't even give her parents a peck on the cheek. It's made her sad as she's tried to control it, but she can't. No hugs, wears long sleeves and gloves all the time. She might take up fighterhood because of the full body armor. But! She's a wonderful conversationalist. She can't have bodily contact but (instead of turning emo) she looks for philosophical and intellectual contact. I must note that Her energy drain ability can be supressed. And she won't have it as a 1st level succubus anyways! (using the monster class, since it makes life easier on the DM, and can be used to show that she is still growing.)
#32 changing-winds11 May 15, 2008 23:58:09	As far as her character goes I've some ideas. 3) Rebel without a cause. Like it or not, she's a demon. "Keep your laws off my body!" No one tells her she can't do something. Telling her why its a bad idea works, or just saying they'd appreciate it if she didn't. (My wife is like this) But if you just say "No" get ready for trouble. Come hell or high water she will do exactly what you told her not to, because you told her not to. It's easy for her to cut off her nose to spite her face. Maybe she was already thinking about tithing to the church, but you told her she 'had' to. Now you can be that money will never see Bahamut's face so long as it lives (or until she calms down). ..I don't know why I, but I just had to respond to this. I'm really almost exactly like this - aside from the whole "I'm a demon!" part. I can't explain it -> and it's not like I WANT to, but if I'm told I HAVE to do something, I will just fight it to the last. That whole example about the "I was going to do it anyway, but since you make it sounds as though I have no choice..." was so perfect it was almost eerie. I mean, I don't even consciously realize I'm doing it a lot of the time - and if I die, it's hard to stop myself, but I usually realize what I've done after the fact - caused absolute hell for everyone involved - and apologize. Seriously, it's like a subconscious urge. ..Now that I've successfully managed to contribute absolutely nothing, I feel I should probably at least TRY.. I agree with Johnathan on most of what he said. I believe that the "always" alignment is not actually absolute. And like someone pointed out earlier - WOTC had a Succubus Paladin that was Lawful Good. They also had information on her - like a backstory I think. You might wanna check up on it.
#33 Johnathan_Vagabond May 17, 2008 13:43:45	I must note that Her energy drain ability can be suppressed. And she won't have it as a 1st level succubus anyways! (using the monster class, since it makes life easier on the DM, and can be used to show that she is still growing.) Yes, but you could play it either way. Since she had a youth she didn't grow up knowing everything about herself. She may or may not be able to suppress it. One of her main goals might be to learn to suppress it. It would make for an interesting character trait that wouldn't make the game impossible (she could wear long sleeve shirts and gloves) but would add flavor to the character.
#34 jage May 17, 2008 21:24:01	I skipped a lot of the discussion- how about play a child with succubus blood? Basically make it so that now that she is 19 and her adult sexuality is awakening she's finding that her true nature is awakening- you get to pick and choose the effects and problems without explaining away her childhood or alignment. Her head fights her demonic nature and whether she grows out of here childhood alignment or not is up to the story as much as anything.