Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 netjack Jul 19, 2008 4:02:47	So I just finished watching the new batman movie alignment. Not going into any actual details about the movie itself, but if you are familiar with batman in general, you should be able to answer this. I always though of the Joker alignment as chaotic evil. Seems pretty straight forwards why, he kills people for enjoyment, and many things he does seem out right crazy, even if they are planned out. Yet, everyone I went to see the movie with seemed to agree he is more of a chaotic neutral, since he had a reason for doing everything. I also always though Batman's alignment was chaotic good, since he is pretty much breaks into places. Among other several laws broken for the greater good. Yet complete scoundrel has him as lawful good. Also, what would be the most scoundrel like way to get out of this situation. Kind of a bad situation I must admit, since I got into t because I release last session we had one hour left. Basically, someone kidnapped a group member "actually an npc we where protecting the DM threw in" a woman with a charisma score of 20 that was in our group we where protecting because she was going to offer us protection from, blah blah blah, anyway, we break in and she is apparently in a cage being force to dance at a night club type of bar. Apparently our assassin in our group took a mission to kill the very guy who now "owns" the npc. So what do we do, well, first I tried talking to him, after that wasn't working one of my party member manages to shoot down the chain suspending her cage, and me, a rogue, and the assassin not only flank him on a surprise round, but both critical him on the first turn, killing him. Security comes out, and everyone starts running out the bar. We take care of the security in about 5 turns. So what our options? What would be the most scoundrel like way to get out of the night club like bar, after quickly killing the owner? Where do I go after fleeing the scene? I generally have a bad time planning escape routes. Do I try to flee with the crowd that about 30 seconds ahead of us? Should we look for a window, we are kind of high up in the air. Should we stay and try to talk things over with the cops. What would batman do? Also, the city we are in is actually controlled be several crime lords. Everyone in the city is probably some type of thug or criminal of some type. Is this also the right place to post this?
#2 kuonji Jul 19, 2008 7:00:01	Batman's alignment (and a critique on the alignment system): Show
#3 sotp_seamus Jul 19, 2008 9:16:34	The tough part of the Batman question is something that no one takes into consideration. Over the course of a campaign, sometimes over one adventure, alignment can and frequently does change. I generally feel that Batman is Lawful Neutral. He respects the law. He works hand in hand with it whenever possible. I think he lacks the ability to recognize good from evil, just how it relates to the law. He understands right and wrong, but that is less important than seeing justice done, as it was denied his parents. The Joker is Lawful Evil. No question. He is irrevocably evil. He is also restrained by his own psychoses. He has a reason for everything he does, albeit twisted. On e of the things that makes the Batman/Joker relationship so compelling is that they are so similar in philosophy. The Joker is just so skewed that his idea of law and order involve breaking things that don't belong to him, killing the innocent, and blowing things up. But never forget that he is bound by his madness, and there are things he won't do.
#4 samusthebold Jul 19, 2008 9:41:05	Batman's alignment (and a critique on the alignment system): Show
#5 tyrandor Jul 19, 2008 12:47:42	Putting Batman has lawful good shows that one doesn't understand Batman at all. Really aptly shown by Adam West has the LG batman... And dude, the Joker is the DEFINITION of chaotic evil. He doesn't do what he does for money, or power, or respect. It does it to see the world burn. Destruction, Entropy - He's the freaking poster child for the alignment. At least, the one from the movie... watch the scene in the interrogation room and the scene in the hospital with him and Dent... "I'm an agent of Chaos!" /put a gun to his head. Lawful Evil? Chaotic Neutrel? You guys are off your rockers. Batman has always represented stability and method... joker represent anarchy and chaos... can't believe someone is pegging him has LAWFUL! WOW!
#6 gentlemanic Jul 19, 2008 13:39:03	Batman isn't good per se, he doesn't do good to help others but only for revenge. If a good guy would have killed his parents he would have hunted down the law (or the good guy.. whatever). However, Batman does follow his own rules. I think his alignment is described in Complete scoundrel..
#7 Rant_Casey Jul 19, 2008 15:29:25	Batman's alignment is entirely dependent on which iteration of Batman you're discussing. Frank Miller writing the character is entirely different from Bruce Timm's animated series, which is different from the Tim Burton Batman, the Nolan Batman, and the Adam West Batman. The Dark Knight was an amazing movie, and the most iconic depiction of alignments I've seen in a long time. The Joker of The Dark Knight is the quintessential Chaotic Evil archetype, with more emphasis on the chaos than the evil, in fact. Batman's alignment shifts over the course of the Nolan movies, which is, in fact a major theme of the movies.
#8 wizarddog Jul 19, 2008 16:38:49	On the alignment question, you forget that Batman does what he does in the name of Justice and protecting the innocent. That includes breaking laws that do not serve the cost of justice. While we can show various situations where he displayed many of the alignment facets his overall actions in (as stated earlier) "the campaign" would show where he stands alignment wise. For the OP situation that would depend on what more they can do in the situation. This is campaign specific as we don't know how "modern" this city environment is. After all, are their any laws against this sort of thing? You basically did a rescue. Who would have rescued her otherwise? Their wouldn't be any laws to enforce really and doubtful the watch would be raiding this place with that many guards. Who runs this bar? Is this a crime/thieves Guild operation? Is the city and watch wanting these places shut down? Is the watch on the roll? If you are playing a scoundrel then you did your business and now are leaving the cops to clean up (or report to their crime bosses). Batman would simply be two steps ahead of everybody. If he knew the cops would be going for him he won't stick around (less Gordon and the non-corrupt police are about). Otherwise he stays only as long as to give information and make sure the thugs are being tossed in the wagon.
#9 entropy_judge Jul 19, 2008 17:39:03	So what our options? What would be the most scoundrel like way to get out of the night club like bar, after quickly killing the owner? Where do I go after fleeing the scene? I generally have a bad time planning escape routes. Do I try to flee with the crowd that about 30 seconds ahead of us? Should we look for a window, we are kind of high up in the air. Should we stay and try to talk things over with the cops. What would batman do? Your options are going to vary, especially depending on the number, level, and makeup of your group. Some basic choices include: * Fight your way out the front door. * Flee as a group. * Flee as individuals, with a rendevous point. * Maintain position, effectively turning yourselves in. Also, you say you rescued an NPC; is she going to be coming with you? Can she fight at all, or is it going to be an escort mission. What class are you? The Thief and the Assassin (as well as any Wizards/Sorcerers/Druids) will probably have the easiest times, due to their likely abilities in travel or deception. What you do is also going to be affected by what happened earlier - you and two others killed the owner of the nightclub. Did anyone see you? Was anyone able to get a good look at you, or did anyone know you were going to meet with him (you did try to talk first, after all)? Is the city civilized/advanced enough that a likeness of you will result in your current residence being watched? Also, you said that the entire city is corrupt, ruled by criminal lords. That means you have potential allies and enemies among the lower classes - a piece of prime real estate like a night club, in a well-planned city, is going to have those who are looking to (or would like to) take it over, and those who are happy with the status quo. The former are likely to help you (in the short term, anyway) since you have possibly aided them, while the latter are likely to want to take you down, for disrupting their business.
#10 sotp_seamus Jul 21, 2008 11:07:52	Perhaps I need to defend my conclusions. There can be no doubt that Batman is Lawful. He travelled the world in order to make himself the ultimate physical specimen. That would require a level of discipline that a non-lawful couldn't even conceive. Batman's sense of good and evil, as was mentioned before, is more defined by his sense of revenge, and less from using the law to help others. The Joker is a trickier case. I know he comes off as Chaotic, but he's really set in his ways. Read "Emperor Joker", and you'll see what I mean. He's totally locked in to Batman. His main motivation now, and it may have been different before, is Batman. That being true, he is beholden to even stricter rules than, Batman, or even Superman. Again, alignment is such a liquid quantity at times, and today's choatic is tomorrow's lawful. I'm just trying to shed some light on the subject.
#11 furryhowler Jul 21, 2008 12:32:04	Unless Batman recognises a higher authority than himself, he isnt Lawful.
#12 sotp_seamus Jul 21, 2008 13:05:34	But, you see, he does recognize a higher authority. He recognizes the Law. Justice, the greaater good, etc. Not only that, look at the Monk class from 3e. A monk doesn't necessarily have to recognize a higher power. It's his dedication to his training and the ideals of his life's mission that make the Monk (and, similarly, Batman) Lawful. Many characters can, indeed, recognize a 'higher authority', and not be Lawful. Take the Thrall of Demogorgon, for example. Demogorgon is their chosen patron, and yet they are chaotic to the point of near incoherence.
#13 entropy_judge Jul 21, 2008 17:48:39	There can be no doubt that Batman is Lawful. He travelled the world in order to make himself the ultimate physical specimen. That would require a level of discipline that a non-lawful couldn't even conceive. Why can non-Lawfuls not be disciplined, again? I mean, there are Chaotic individuals that are absolutely dedicated to the ideals of freedom, aren't there? Doesn't that mean that self-discipline isn't the yardstick by which Chaos vs Law should be measured, or does it mean that such 'Chaotic' individuals are, in fact, among the most Lawful creatures?
#14 tyrandor Jul 21, 2008 18:35:32	But, you see, he does recognize a higher authority. He recognizes the Law. Justice, the greaater good, etc. Batman doesn't believe in higher authority then himself... he is the law, or at the very least he believe his laws and views of things are the best one and that everyone else is wrong... Kingdom Come, The Dark Knight Return, etc - there's plenty of source to support this. And even in continuity - Batman consistantly disobey order from whoever is the leader of the JLA because 'he knows better' (well, he usually do, but still). He is disciplined. And he believes in justice... but The Batman was created because he perceived that that civilisation and its law failed to meet justice. Batman is an outlaw and a criminal... he's a vigiliante.
#15 DrWorm Jul 21, 2008 18:49:32	Batman doesn't believe in higher authority then himself... he is the law, or at the very least he believe his laws and views of things are the best one and that everyone else is wrong... Arrogance, sure, but he still percieves his actions as following a higer code of justice. Yes he often deems himself the best judge of this, but Batman sees it as an absolute code, not random thuggery against the baddies. I say Lawful Neutral, or maybe Lawful Good.
#16 sinfire_titan Jul 21, 2008 19:10:23	Batman has no determinable alignment. Totally true. Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment. :P
#17 empty Jul 23, 2008 15:26:35	I mean, there are Chaotic individuals that are absolutely dedicated to the ideals of freedom, aren't there? Actually, no. Chaotic people may be dedicated to a cause, but they are not focused to be able to stay on the road of "absolutely" dedication. A chaotic wanna-be monk would probably have skimped on the training from time to time and snuck out. A chaotic wanna-be paladin would'nt be able to sit and pray all those hours it is required. This is as i have understood it.
#18 entropy_judge Jul 23, 2008 16:51:51	This is as i have understood it. But is there anything RAW that says that Chaotic individuals do not, or cannot have discipline? It says they espouse freedom, but it does not say (or at least, the SRD does not say) that they are incapable of concerted action, or maintaining discipline for extended periods of time.
#19 furryhowler Jul 24, 2008 1:49:42	He is disciplined. And he believes in justice... but The Batman was created because he perceived that that civilisation and its law failed to meet justice. Batman is an outlaw and a criminal... he's a vigiliante. Exactly. Batman is about vengeance for a very personal sense of being wronged....which he continues with, taken out to other people (seeing the wrongs against them as a continuation of the wrong against him). He's the vengeance under the moon rather than the justics of the light of day.
#20 voran Jul 24, 2008 17:07:41	They actually had this on the history channel the other day, the Psychology of The Batman. Interesting show. Anyhoo, I think in general Batman (at least comic version) was a solid LN. He did good things, but in a way they were mostly incidental. Side effects of his personal quest to smash injustice and bring fear to those that prey on the fearful. Bruce Wayne demonstrated NG tendencies, he was the mask by which Bats could do his philantrophy kinda stuff, but I never really got the sense that it was Bat's true personality that would build a health clinic or whatever. Movie Batman is harder to pin down, he's "Good" in the sense that its old-school black hat/white hat kinda stuff. Where the goodguy is allowed to thrash badguys and shoot em dead without stain on his goodguy image. This evolves through the film though. Bats is a mix, he wants to promote law and order, by smashing chaos and evil, but is also outside the law and order. He wants to give the common man the opportunity to make their own choices, not living in fear or oppression by evil. As for "What would Batman do?" in the OP. First, he wouldn't have killed anyone, or allowed someone from his crew to kill someone. Bats wants to influence, in some ways force, change, but he won't execute people, even deranged murderous crimelords, even if that would be easier to do. Scoundrel wouldn't be murdering someone and then hitting the clubs to go cruisin for skirts. Scoundrel would be stealing the BBEG's girl, or daughter, or sister, or mom, and taking HER to go hit the clubs, using the BBEG's cash to fund it.
#21 rentauri Jul 24, 2008 17:46:04	nevermind
#22 trismagestus Jul 24, 2008 22:17:59	You could have a very similar discussion about The Punisher. The only thing which changes is that he kills instead of capturing. Revenge, sure, but he also actively tries to help people when feasible, and protects many innocent people, sometimes to the detriment of his vendetta.
#23 doomsought Jul 24, 2008 22:46:55	I say take the girl and skip town... and the next town for that matter. Or find the BBEG's mom, as the post above. but you should commit a few acts of arson before skipping town if you do that.
#24 sotp_seamus Jul 25, 2008 9:12:32	With thw Punisher question, he is clearly Chaotic Neutral. The contrast is more than just killing versus capturing. The punisher does not is not as disciplined as Batman. He has a military background, which implies a disciplinarian origin. The difference is that the boundaries of Law and Order completely disintegrated whenhis damily was murdered. He runs and hides from the police. He fights Lawful heroes who disagree with his methods. He seeks to crumble organized crime. The only rules he sticks to are his basic moral quirks. He is Catholic, and studied to be a priest. He routinely goes to confession after he's committed crimes. This may present a Lawful mentality, but in his hero career, he throws the rules right out the window to acheive his goals. It's as though Frank Castle is Lawful, but the Punisher is Chaotic. I have an idea...Could we maybe talk alignment for the characters of LOST?