Alignment question... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Alignment question...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Disposablehero
Aug 23, 2008 2:02:39 I was fairly miffed tonight about how another player reacted to a situation in game this session, and was looking for advice on it.

We were playing 3.5, and I cast color spray, as a cone. The cleric had 2 astral devas in the blast wave. He didn't say anything about it at first, but after the session ended he OOCly got on my case about it, and told me never to cast spells like that again.

Seeing as my character was chaotic neutral, I don't see it as a moral delima. He was doing a job, and was doing what he saw as the best way to accomplish said job. The ends justify the means.

I even went as far as to explain this, and tell him it is an IC matter, and not OOC.

No PCs were harmed in this, just a summoned creature, and it was only for a whopping 5 damage.

Am I wrong in my thinking here?
#2
dmparagon
Aug 23, 2008 2:07:00 the other player was out of line for several reasons:

1: It's just a game
2: Acedents happen
3: It's just a game
4: Alignment aside, the cleric can summon more, even if it's later. No permanent harm
5:It's just a game
6: No PC's were harmed
7: It's just a game
8: Even IF PC's were harmed, it was for a whooping 5 points
9:It's just a game

I spend all my time DMing, but a player who acts like that, more then once, does not play with me again. why? because It's just a game!
#3
Novacat
Aug 23, 2008 2:14:53 I would say you are wrong to consider it an alignment issue. Never, ever, ever use your alignment to justify your actions. All you need to do is make sure your actions are in line with your character's personality, and let the rest sort itself out.

A summoned creature is hardly worth caring about. Any harm done to them is undone when they are whisked back to their home, no there are no lasting damages.

However, I agree with you, that the guy should approach you in-character, not out of character, because out of character, we don't give a damn what happens to astral devas, summoned or no.
#4
Man_in_the_Funny_Hat
Aug 23, 2008 10:57:03 This really isn't a matter of alignment - even bringing alignment into the equation is mistake #2. Mistake #1 was anyone getting in a serious twist over this in the first place.

A summoned creature is brought into existence almost exclusively for the sole purpose of taking and dealing damage until they are dead. Hastening that outcome - regardless of whether it's intentional or accidental, and regardless of what the summoned creature actually is - is irrelevant to alignment. It's only relevant to the length of time that the summoned creature can continue to fight. If the player was upset because you were shortening the lifespan of his summoned creatures and thus making them less effective he has a point. But that point hinges rather directly on the amount of "reckless" damage that you're doing and whether or not you're being reasonably effective in what you're doing regardless of what it does to the summoned creature.

Was he insisting that you never do it again because it was making his summoned creatures less useful or what?
#5
entropy_judge
Aug 24, 2008 8:09:55
He didn't say anything about it at first, but after the session ended he OOCly got on my case about it, and told me never to cast spells like that again.

Spells like what? AoE spells? I can see that going over real well .... Anyway, I agree with the others that it's not an alignment issue.
#6
daemian
Aug 27, 2008 20:32:27 my thing is never use alignment as a crutch the cleric was wrong in approaching you after the fact and everyone knows that summoned creatures are almost exclusively meat shields its not an alignment issue and if your characters personality dictates that whatever you need to do to suscced you will do then maybe NE or CE are better choices.
#7
Kaganfindel
Aug 28, 2008 15:42:01 It was in your character to consider the summoned help as disposable. It's not as if the color spray was going to kill them.
#8
mgshamster
Aug 28, 2008 15:45:42
the other player was out of line for several reasons:

1: It's just a game
2: Acedents happen
3: It's just a game
4: Alignment aside, the cleric can summon more, even if it's later. No permanent harm
5:It's just a game
6: No PC's were harmed
7: It's just a game
8: Even IF PC's were harmed, it was for a whooping 5 points
9:It's just a game

I spend all my time DMing, but a player who acts like that, more then once, does not play with me again. why? because It's just a game!

Win.
#9
RPJesus
Sep 01, 2008 2:50:38 Really he should be thankful you're not one of the jackasses who decide to get the entire party in a fireball just to take out 2 goblins and "justify" being batshit insane by being chaotic neutral.
#10
dmparagon
Sep 01, 2008 3:16:51 My DMing Pet Peeves:

#1: players that use thier alignment as a crutch, expecially if they don't even acknowledge thier alignment any other time

#2: FIghters (or anyone else) that use their INT as an excuse after the player screws up tactically on the battle field (just give it the "my bad" and move on)!
#11
lostdwarf
Sep 01, 2008 14:00:07 I agree that this isn't really an alignment issue, but more of an issue of good tactics.

And I dont really see this as that bad of a case of tactics. Yes, you did catch some friendlies in the AoE, but they were summoned creatures, not pcs, not even animal companions, and if the potential gain out weighted the potential harm then go ahead. Yes, you dont want to drop fireball just to kill a couple of goblins, but overall it seems like he overreacted a bit.

My advice, put the issue behind you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Disposablehero Aug 23, 2008 2:02:39	I was fairly miffed tonight about how another player reacted to a situation in game this session, and was looking for advice on it. We were playing 3.5, and I cast color spray, as a cone. The cleric had 2 astral devas in the blast wave. He didn't say anything about it at first, but after the session ended he OOCly got on my case about it, and told me never to cast spells like that again. Seeing as my character was chaotic neutral, I don't see it as a moral delima. He was doing a job, and was doing what he saw as the best way to accomplish said job. The ends justify the means. I even went as far as to explain this, and tell him it is an IC matter, and not OOC. No PCs were harmed in this, just a summoned creature, and it was only for a whopping 5 damage. Am I wrong in my thinking here?
#2 dmparagon Aug 23, 2008 2:07:00	the other player was out of line for several reasons: 1: It's just a game 2: Acedents happen 3: It's just a game 4: Alignment aside, the cleric can summon more, even if it's later. No permanent harm 5:It's just a game 6: No PC's were harmed 7: It's just a game 8: Even IF PC's were harmed, it was for a whooping 5 points 9:It's just a game I spend all my time DMing, but a player who acts like that, more then once, does not play with me again. why? because It's just a game!
#3 Novacat Aug 23, 2008 2:14:53	I would say you are wrong to consider it an alignment issue. Never, ever, ever use your alignment to justify your actions. All you need to do is make sure your actions are in line with your character's personality, and let the rest sort itself out. A summoned creature is hardly worth caring about. Any harm done to them is undone when they are whisked back to their home, no there are no lasting damages. However, I agree with you, that the guy should approach you in-character, not out of character, because out of character, we don't give a damn what happens to astral devas, summoned or no.
#4 Man_in_the_Funny_Hat Aug 23, 2008 10:57:03	This really isn't a matter of alignment - even bringing alignment into the equation is mistake #2. Mistake #1 was anyone getting in a serious twist over this in the first place. A summoned creature is brought into existence almost exclusively for the sole purpose of taking and dealing damage until they are dead. Hastening that outcome - regardless of whether it's intentional or accidental, and regardless of what the summoned creature actually is - is irrelevant to alignment. It's only relevant to the length of time that the summoned creature can continue to fight. If the player was upset because you were shortening the lifespan of his summoned creatures and thus making them less effective he has a point. But that point hinges rather directly on the amount of "reckless" damage that you're doing and whether or not you're being reasonably effective in what you're doing regardless of what it does to the summoned creature. Was he insisting that you never do it again because it was making his summoned creatures less useful or what?
#5 entropy_judge Aug 24, 2008 8:09:55	He didn't say anything about it at first, but after the session ended he OOCly got on my case about it, and told me never to cast spells like that again. Spells like what? AoE spells? I can see that going over real well .... Anyway, I agree with the others that it's not an alignment issue.
#6 daemian Aug 27, 2008 20:32:27	my thing is never use alignment as a crutch the cleric was wrong in approaching you after the fact and everyone knows that summoned creatures are almost exclusively meat shields its not an alignment issue and if your characters personality dictates that whatever you need to do to suscced you will do then maybe NE or CE are better choices.
#7 Kaganfindel Aug 28, 2008 15:42:01	It was in your character to consider the summoned help as disposable. It's not as if the color spray was going to kill them.
#8 mgshamster Aug 28, 2008 15:45:42	the other player was out of line for several reasons: 1: It's just a game 2: Acedents happen 3: It's just a game 4: Alignment aside, the cleric can summon more, even if it's later. No permanent harm 5:It's just a game 6: No PC's were harmed 7: It's just a game 8: Even IF PC's were harmed, it was for a whooping 5 points 9:It's just a game I spend all my time DMing, but a player who acts like that, more then once, does not play with me again. why? because It's just a game! Win.
#9 RPJesus Sep 01, 2008 2:50:38	Really he should be thankful you're not one of the jackasses who decide to get the entire party in a fireball just to take out 2 goblins and "justify" being batshit insane by being chaotic neutral.
#10 dmparagon Sep 01, 2008 3:16:51	My DMing Pet Peeves: #1: players that use thier alignment as a crutch, expecially if they don't even acknowledge thier alignment any other time #2: FIghters (or anyone else) that use their INT as an excuse after the player screws up tactically on the battle field (just give it the "my bad" and move on)!
#11 lostdwarf Sep 01, 2008 14:00:07	I agree that this isn't really an alignment issue, but more of an issue of good tactics. And I dont really see this as that bad of a case of tactics. Yes, you did catch some friendlies in the AoE, but they were summoned creatures, not pcs, not even animal companions, and if the potential gain out weighted the potential harm then go ahead. Yes, you dont want to drop fireball just to kill a couple of goblins, but overall it seems like he overreacted a bit. My advice, put the issue behind you.