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An Undead PC and its soul

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
hooper
Jan 20, 2008 19:03:24 I have a quick odd question. In a current campaign, I am a LG Undead Human Paladin of Heironeous. I died and was raised and just recently found out I was undead.

Anyways, during a session I had to miss due to work reasons, some things happened that I just learned of at our session tonight.

There is a Necromancer in our group (due to comedic reasons I have not yet figured out shes evil so I haven't attacked her) and she visited the far realms and was "given my soul which had been stolen when i died."

Now, here is my question. If I don't or never had a soul, wouldn't I just be some useless non-sentient undead? I know its a gray area, and for one thing, how is a soul stolen? If I had been present when this happened I would of contested, and it is the DM's first time as DM.

But it is important because now that I know I'm undead I'm trying to be True Rez'd but since it says I have to be willing (which I am), the sorcerer is taking that as she having my soul she has to be willing and she isn't.

Advice? Is this possible?
#2
arcane-surge
Jan 20, 2008 19:12:10 And to think I'm taking a break from my philosophy paper to answer existential questions on the Player board.

First of all, what your character is enduring is entirely poetic license, and is not covered under any actual D&D rules that I can think of. As such, in the end, it's up to your DM.

There are a few possibilities that you might consider, though.

First, being undead isn't necessarily that bad (Unless, in your D&D game, it is). If you didn't notice, likely no one else will, and you'll enjoy a wonderful immunity to all sorts of fun things.

Second, just because someone thinks they have your soul doesn't necessarily mean they do. You, and your character, should keep that in mind.

Third, since your character is meandering about and doing his own things, while another person is in possession of his soul, it seems logical to say that "Soul" is not equivalent to "Will". This'd mean that you can be willing, even if your soul is in the possession of another (Though it might not mean that you can be resurrected in the first place).

My advice? Locate said necromancer's soul-receptacle, and obtain it, killing her in the process if necessary. Stealing someone's soul is pretty up there on the naughty list, so I don't think Hieronous would be too upset.

Or, let her keep it, and do her bidding. Multiclass to Blackguard. Maybe get hitched a few levels down the road, make an honest woman out of her (Stealing someone's soul is the necromancer version of punching you in the arm and then running away giggling).
#3
i_roll_ones
Jan 20, 2008 19:43:05 Another way is to have everyone in the group to agree to make some crap up, unless someone has the right Greyhawk book.

Can the necromancer use a ritual to use positive energy? (So you're definitely not evil, and don't have to commit suicide)Or did she give up control of the soul to create the undead? (So you are free willed)

Or, is the character now fallen? Consider Bone Knight(Forget which book it is from)

As far as I know, the undead rules tend to get a bit screwy(two different reasons exist as to why undead are evil), and to make matters more confusing, there are positive energy undead.
#4
kelvinaw273
Jan 21, 2008 5:55:08 Perhaps you are not so much undead as undying, such as you get in Eberron ...
#5
cifer
Jan 21, 2008 6:35:26 In the end, it's really up to your DM. In normal D&D, the soul usually is considered to be the person, which is the reason why infernal pacts only give the devil the soul of the signer after he has died.

In your case, one could say you've been made something very much like a lich - you're undead, self-aware and your soul is not in your body. However, it's highly probable that your necromancer buddy hasn't got a real phylactery to hold it in. So what it comes down to is this question: Is her control over the soul strong enough to thwart a 9th level spell? That's for your DM to answer.

If the spell can't be used, try to get some diviner's help to locate your soul. When he finds out it's directly next to you... well, time to ask some questions, isn't it?
#6
arcane-surge
Jan 21, 2008 7:58:08 Smite first, questions later.
#7
silverthumb
Jan 21, 2008 9:08:40
Smite first, questions later.

Smite makes right.
#8
etarnon
Jan 23, 2008 2:13:25 Okay my solution is go to your temple and pray.

Do some kind of geas or quest, with help from avatars of your god.

If the DM says, "You can't do that, he he..."

If so, get right in his face and tall him, "You can't take my PC's soul when I wasn't there, so this whole setup is totally BS, answer me that, smart guy. I'm done being railroaded with this crap."

If he doesn't fix it right away, quit.

I'm sure many will disagree with me.
#9
blodgett
Jan 23, 2008 10:26:48 To answer your other question, very few undead, intelligent or otherwise actually have a soul.

Liches do, skeleton warriors do, vampires do not. Unless the description states that they have a soul, they are a spirit / soul / etc..., or that they have a receptacle / phylactry / or some other place that they keep their soul / spirit / essence, the undead in question does not have a soul. Intelligent or not.

Now D&D tends to ignore this, but this is why vampires, for example, have no reflection in mirrors. Your reflection is supposed to be your soul.
#10
lincoln_hills
Jan 23, 2008 15:05:17 Pray to Heironeous.

"O righteous one, help me to find the way. Undeath is blasphemy to you and to me. Help me to cleanse myself of this taint. My soul was pledged to you, and now it has mysteriously gone missing, and the black-robed mage with all the skull paraphenalia keeps giggling whenever I mention it. Help me to know what to do, I beg of you!"

Your DM seems to me to be hosing you. A missing soul - that I'll admit is a story-related angle. Resurrecting you as a corpse-creature or whatever... he'd better be leading up to something with this. Because it sounds to me like he's just trying to torture you into letting your character fall from grace so he can run the BoVD-inspired campaign he wants to run but is too darn craven to speak to you openly about.
#11
neodymium
Apr 20, 2008 14:50:50 To be honest, i'm not entirely sure what the DM said about it all, but here's an update.
the paladin went and got himself resurrected(so whatever the case, his soul is his again). Not too much after that he ended up killing the necromancer, but of course the necromancer's loot animated into a construct and the body is in the process of becoming Worms That Walk. I'd say it's gone from bad to worse.
#12
Thief_of_Hope
Apr 21, 2008 2:35:33
Or, let her keep it, and do her bidding. Multiclass to Blackguard. Maybe get hitched a few levels down the road, make an honest woman out of her (Stealing someone's soul is the necromancer version of punching you in the arm and then running away giggling).

Ah, a fellow philosophy student? It's a pleasure to meet you.

You have been sigged.
#13
green_yawgmoth
Apr 21, 2008 8:48:13
Or, let her keep it, and do her bidding. Multiclass to Blackguard.

Blackguard is a prestige class, not a core class. ergo, no multiclassing there.
Maybe get hitched a few levels down the road, make an honest woman out of her (Stealing someone's soul is the necromancer version of punching you in the arm and then running away giggling).

This almost made me laugh in class.
#14
ahiman
Apr 21, 2008 9:51:27 I can see that the Philosophers are meeting here so I will through my 2 cents in.

It seems that in your game the soul is not where the intellect is so no problem there. There is a problem that should make you not want to get into any fight soon and that is that when you die (again) you will not go to heaven. You will be in her "jar" so that she owns you. Well that having been said I would go forward and try to get it back, by any means necessary, and try to get others in the group to help you, plus any other people who might find your situation not so nice. Lets assume that you get it back with out any bloodshed and find a way to put it in you again (I don't know eat it or something). Try to get yourself sanctified some how, a blessing from some priest or a quest. Then try to get this girl to be good and show her how being good has rewards too (hehe...) and then go home and have a cup of chocolate.

But this all depends on your DM and your world.

Good luck and may the force be with you.
#15
kerelis
Apr 21, 2008 10:39:19 The OP didn't say she 'stole' it....he said she 'was given' it. I personally think the DM is giving her an opportunity to gain goodwill with the party paladin. Here is an opportunity for her to give back his soul that SOMEONE ELSE had stolen.

This would make the paladin more positively inclined toward her...and maybe give him an in character reason to turn a blind eye to some of her activities.

Of course if she keeps it, that gives the paladin reason to kick her butt.
#16
hooper
Apr 21, 2008 12:52:37 Thanks to all those who helped out and replied. Let me give you an update:

The character in question, a CE Cthulu worshipping Necromancer is dead. I killed her. I tested her out in game and she repeatidly failed my tests at being good, so I killed her. The player playing her tried his best to cheat and say he had more HP but in the end I won the 'melee vs. spellcaster' discussion this time.

However, the DM didn't like that. You see, he allowed the campaign to have good and evil characters, yet during the session discussed earlier where I killed the evil character, the only books he had brought where the core and BoVD. He didn't care what us other characters wanted. The player behind the Necromancer knows how to power game and how to talk to this first-time-DM to make him think what he is doing is ok.

So, after I uber-killed the Necromancer, and then me and the party took care of all its undead that were raised and released from her control when it died, the DM is now sending my way two things from the ELH and making the Necromancer into a worm-that-walks.

However, when the player who played the necromancer got to roll a new character, and then proceeded to use Disjuntion and destory a artifact, he had relatively nothing happen to him.

Not to mention, during our last session, we had 2 combat situations that involved the player in question and nothing was rolled, it was just said he won. But when I wanted to bust thru a door (as a 19th level melee person), I had to roll for it.

I'm trying my best not to be angry about the bias I'm perceiving, but it is getting harder.

(Note: He also tried not to give me my soul back after being True Resurrected even though he had said a good 10 times that if I managed to get the Necromancer to allow my soul to resserect I would have it)

/end rant/update
#17
ahiman
Apr 22, 2008 6:16:55 Wow, I have done something like this before and it sucks. Well long story short your screwed. Your DM is being used (sounds like it) by by the player and is ruling in this persons favor and what not. I recommend talking to your fellow players and asking them if they have a problem with this, then have a collective talk about what is going on. If things don't go well then leave. There is nothing you can do some time.

Good luck and sorry about how this worked out.
#18
kelvinaw273
Apr 22, 2008 6:37:15 I hate to say it, but it sounds from your description that this campaign sucks.

Time to bail.
#19
hooper
Apr 23, 2008 14:58:44 I'm going to attempt to mention it before we start our next session in as calm a manner and polite as possible with examples and see how it goes.
#20
dragonsblood
Apr 23, 2008 15:27:43
Advice? Is this possible?

In my campaign, being an undead paladin would be impossible. Being a good undead would be impossible. This whole scenario is ridiculous and not covered by the RAW. You'll have to ask your DM.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 hooper Jan 20, 2008 19:03:24	I have a quick odd question. In a current campaign, I am a LG Undead Human Paladin of Heironeous. I died and was raised and just recently found out I was undead. Anyways, during a session I had to miss due to work reasons, some things happened that I just learned of at our session tonight. There is a Necromancer in our group (due to comedic reasons I have not yet figured out shes evil so I haven't attacked her) and she visited the far realms and was "given my soul which had been stolen when i died." Now, here is my question. If I don't or never had a soul, wouldn't I just be some useless non-sentient undead? I know its a gray area, and for one thing, how is a soul stolen? If I had been present when this happened I would of contested, and it is the DM's first time as DM. But it is important because now that I know I'm undead I'm trying to be True Rez'd but since it says I have to be willing (which I am), the sorcerer is taking that as she having my soul she has to be willing and she isn't. Advice? Is this possible?
#2 arcane-surge Jan 20, 2008 19:12:10	And to think I'm taking a break from my philosophy paper to answer existential questions on the Player board. First of all, what your character is enduring is entirely poetic license, and is not covered under any actual D&D rules that I can think of. As such, in the end, it's up to your DM. There are a few possibilities that you might consider, though. First, being undead isn't necessarily that bad (Unless, in your D&D game, it is). If you didn't notice, likely no one else will, and you'll enjoy a wonderful immunity to all sorts of fun things. Second, just because someone thinks they have your soul doesn't necessarily mean they do. You, and your character, should keep that in mind. Third, since your character is meandering about and doing his own things, while another person is in possession of his soul, it seems logical to say that "Soul" is not equivalent to "Will". This'd mean that you can be willing, even if your soul is in the possession of another (Though it might not mean that you can be resurrected in the first place). My advice? Locate said necromancer's soul-receptacle, and obtain it, killing her in the process if necessary. Stealing someone's soul is pretty up there on the naughty list, so I don't think Hieronous would be too upset. Or, let her keep it, and do her bidding. Multiclass to Blackguard. Maybe get hitched a few levels down the road, make an honest woman out of her (Stealing someone's soul is the necromancer version of punching you in the arm and then running away giggling).
#3 i_roll_ones Jan 20, 2008 19:43:05	Another way is to have everyone in the group to agree to make some crap up, unless someone has the right Greyhawk book. Can the necromancer use a ritual to use positive energy? (So you're definitely not evil, and don't have to commit suicide)Or did she give up control of the soul to create the undead? (So you are free willed) Or, is the character now fallen? Consider Bone Knight(Forget which book it is from) As far as I know, the undead rules tend to get a bit screwy(two different reasons exist as to why undead are evil), and to make matters more confusing, there are positive energy undead.
#4 kelvinaw273 Jan 21, 2008 5:55:08	Perhaps you are not so much undead as undying, such as you get in Eberron ...
#5 cifer Jan 21, 2008 6:35:26	In the end, it's really up to your DM. In normal D&D, the soul usually is considered to be the person, which is the reason why infernal pacts only give the devil the soul of the signer after he has died. In your case, one could say you've been made something very much like a lich - you're undead, self-aware and your soul is not in your body. However, it's highly probable that your necromancer buddy hasn't got a real phylactery to hold it in. So what it comes down to is this question: Is her control over the soul strong enough to thwart a 9th level spell? That's for your DM to answer. If the spell can't be used, try to get some diviner's help to locate your soul. When he finds out it's directly next to you... well, time to ask some questions, isn't it?
#6 arcane-surge Jan 21, 2008 7:58:08	Smite first, questions later.
#7 silverthumb Jan 21, 2008 9:08:40	Smite first, questions later. Smite makes right.
#8 etarnon Jan 23, 2008 2:13:25	Okay my solution is go to your temple and pray. Do some kind of geas or quest, with help from avatars of your god. If the DM says, "You can't do that, he he..." If so, get right in his face and tall him, "You can't take my PC's soul when I wasn't there, so this whole setup is totally BS, answer me that, smart guy. I'm done being railroaded with this crap." If he doesn't fix it right away, quit. I'm sure many will disagree with me.
#9 blodgett Jan 23, 2008 10:26:48	To answer your other question, very few undead, intelligent or otherwise actually have a soul. Liches do, skeleton warriors do, vampires do not. Unless the description states that they have a soul, they are a spirit / soul / etc..., or that they have a receptacle / phylactry / or some other place that they keep their soul / spirit / essence, the undead in question does not have a soul. Intelligent or not. Now D&D tends to ignore this, but this is why vampires, for example, have no reflection in mirrors. Your reflection is supposed to be your soul.
#10 lincoln_hills Jan 23, 2008 15:05:17	Pray to Heironeous. "O righteous one, help me to find the way. Undeath is blasphemy to you and to me. Help me to cleanse myself of this taint. My soul was pledged to you, and now it has mysteriously gone missing, and the black-robed mage with all the skull paraphenalia keeps giggling whenever I mention it. Help me to know what to do, I beg of you!" Your DM seems to me to be hosing you. A missing soul - that I'll admit is a story-related angle. Resurrecting you as a corpse-creature or whatever... he'd better be leading up to something with this. Because it sounds to me like he's just trying to torture you into letting your character fall from grace so he can run the BoVD-inspired campaign he wants to run but is too darn craven to speak to you openly about.
#11 neodymium Apr 20, 2008 14:50:50	To be honest, i'm not entirely sure what the DM said about it all, but here's an update. the paladin went and got himself resurrected(so whatever the case, his soul is his again). Not too much after that he ended up killing the necromancer, but of course the necromancer's loot animated into a construct and the body is in the process of becoming Worms That Walk. I'd say it's gone from bad to worse.
#12 Thief_of_Hope Apr 21, 2008 2:35:33	Or, let her keep it, and do her bidding. Multiclass to Blackguard. Maybe get hitched a few levels down the road, make an honest woman out of her (Stealing someone's soul is the necromancer version of punching you in the arm and then running away giggling). Ah, a fellow philosophy student? It's a pleasure to meet you. You have been sigged.
#13 green_yawgmoth Apr 21, 2008 8:48:13	Or, let her keep it, and do her bidding. Multiclass to Blackguard. Blackguard is a prestige class, not a core class. ergo, no multiclassing there. Maybe get hitched a few levels down the road, make an honest woman out of her (Stealing someone's soul is the necromancer version of punching you in the arm and then running away giggling). This almost made me laugh in class.
#14 ahiman Apr 21, 2008 9:51:27	I can see that the Philosophers are meeting here so I will through my 2 cents in. It seems that in your game the soul is not where the intellect is so no problem there. There is a problem that should make you not want to get into any fight soon and that is that when you die (again) you will not go to heaven. You will be in her "jar" so that she owns you. Well that having been said I would go forward and try to get it back, by any means necessary, and try to get others in the group to help you, plus any other people who might find your situation not so nice. Lets assume that you get it back with out any bloodshed and find a way to put it in you again (I don't know eat it or something). Try to get yourself sanctified some how, a blessing from some priest or a quest. Then try to get this girl to be good and show her how being good has rewards too (hehe...) and then go home and have a cup of chocolate. But this all depends on your DM and your world. Good luck and may the force be with you.
#15 kerelis Apr 21, 2008 10:39:19	The OP didn't say she 'stole' it....he said she 'was given' it. I personally think the DM is giving her an opportunity to gain goodwill with the party paladin. Here is an opportunity for her to give back his soul that SOMEONE ELSE had stolen. This would make the paladin more positively inclined toward her...and maybe give him an in character reason to turn a blind eye to some of her activities. Of course if she keeps it, that gives the paladin reason to kick her butt.
#16 hooper Apr 21, 2008 12:52:37	Thanks to all those who helped out and replied. Let me give you an update: The character in question, a CE Cthulu worshipping Necromancer is dead. I killed her. I tested her out in game and she repeatidly failed my tests at being good, so I killed her. The player playing her tried his best to cheat and say he had more HP but in the end I won the 'melee vs. spellcaster' discussion this time. However, the DM didn't like that. You see, he allowed the campaign to have good and evil characters, yet during the session discussed earlier where I killed the evil character, the only books he had brought where the core and BoVD. He didn't care what us other characters wanted. The player behind the Necromancer knows how to power game and how to talk to this first-time-DM to make him think what he is doing is ok. So, after I uber-killed the Necromancer, and then me and the party took care of all its undead that were raised and released from her control when it died, the DM is now sending my way two things from the ELH and making the Necromancer into a worm-that-walks. However, when the player who played the necromancer got to roll a new character, and then proceeded to use Disjuntion and destory a artifact, he had relatively nothing happen to him. Not to mention, during our last session, we had 2 combat situations that involved the player in question and nothing was rolled, it was just said he won. But when I wanted to bust thru a door (as a 19th level melee person), I had to roll for it. I'm trying my best not to be angry about the bias I'm perceiving, but it is getting harder. (Note: He also tried not to give me my soul back after being True Resurrected even though he had said a good 10 times that if I managed to get the Necromancer to allow my soul to resserect I would have it) /end rant/update
#17 ahiman Apr 22, 2008 6:16:55	Wow, I have done something like this before and it sucks. Well long story short your screwed. Your DM is being used (sounds like it) by by the player and is ruling in this persons favor and what not. I recommend talking to your fellow players and asking them if they have a problem with this, then have a collective talk about what is going on. If things don't go well then leave. There is nothing you can do some time. Good luck and sorry about how this worked out.
#18 kelvinaw273 Apr 22, 2008 6:37:15	I hate to say it, but it sounds from your description that this campaign sucks. Time to bail.
#19 hooper Apr 23, 2008 14:58:44	I'm going to attempt to mention it before we start our next session in as calm a manner and polite as possible with examples and see how it goes.
#20 dragonsblood Apr 23, 2008 15:27:43	Advice? Is this possible? In my campaign, being an undead paladin would be impossible. Being a good undead would be impossible. This whole scenario is ridiculous and not covered by the RAW. You'll have to ask your DM.