We are a 5-man group of 4th level characters. The ship has three ballista that deal an average of 70 damage if we hit.
My cleric missed a Cause Fear attack with a 22 to hit Will Defense.
The ship had a captain of 15th level and a bosun of 10th level. Again, we were 4th level.
The ballista were highly magical pseudo artifacts.
WHY ARE WE EVEN HERE!?
Our presence in this part of the adventure means absolutely nothing! Anyone could fire the ballista!
Does anyone here have any advice for me? I feel like I should do something about it, but I can't think of anything more productive than throttling the DM.
Buuut it's not. As everyone here will suggest, you need to have a long, sincere, calm chat with your DM.
Your DM should be made to watch horrible movies for hours on end.
Fitting, I like it.
Honestly, if this is a first time offence that only happens the one time and after that it's back to the players get all the action and glory. I'd say let it slide, could have been an experiment, or something that he thought would be more player centric then it was, as a DM I had this happen once (and only once, I learn from my mistakes) just because I thought the players would be able to do more then they could.
If he's a repeat offender, I'd say have a chat with him, just tell him that you feel in a number of cases more like spectators then players and that when a ship of high level crew are doing the work and all you can do is pull a trigger roll a dice and hope it's not fun for you. Be polite, soft spoken even, he clearly doesn't realize that this isn't fun for you or he wouldn't be doing it.
I'm not promoting passive aggression, by the way. That route will never be fruitful or fun for either of you. I'm talking about giving him in-character feedback to his action as DM, and reacting however your character would react to this situation. Normally, DMs who commit this kind of mistake expect that the PCs will continue to press forward against all odds, and the campaign will rely on that. If you don't, and you comment to an NPC something like "We're in way over our heads. Sorry, but we're not about to fight a dragon that size, no matter what kind of ship weaponry we have. We're going to go do thing we can actually handle."
One of three things will happen:
1. He'll learn, and will become a better DM by experience, which is the preferred route.
2. He'll ask your opinions of the game, indicating that he senses he's made a mistake, but want your help to identify it. This indicates he's a really good DM at heart, and is merely inexperienced.
3. He won't learn, and will remain ignorant to the existence of a problem. In this event, you and one other player (not everyone), should pull him aside and gently offer your opinions that you as players don't feel important to the game's plot. NEVER offer a complaint without advice on how to fix it.
Good luck.
If an NPC isn't one of the most important characters in the story, then that NPC is at least two levels below the party.
Is the party level 7? Then my town cleric is level 3.
Secluded wizard? Level 5.
Mayor? 3.
Captain of the guard? 5.
The ruler of an entire nation, who was a war hero in years past? 10 or so.
Ship's captain? 5 or less.
Try and impress upon your dm that it's not fun when the limelight is stolen from the characters by making them seem insignicant next to these awesome magical artifacts and cool npcs. The PCs should be the stars of the show.
As a DM I have had overly powerful bbegs hurass the pc's at low levels, my group loves it. This makes it so when they do finally kill him alot more enjoyable.
It is sometimes important to provide a cast of characters, including later BBEGs and to "put pcs in their place" reminding them they're not even the most powerful good guys YET.
If this was brief, it could be very well done....like a vignette but with a few rolls. If it was the "DM show", that's a different story.
There are often responses of OMFG!!! your dm gave you something you couldn't beat! HOW LAME. I don't think anyone has said that yet in this thread, but I can see them coming. I think the real issue is the DM playing both sides while you watch.
As a DM, I like to do these kinds of things without rolls, so that the point is made and then the players get back to gaming. However, he may have been trying to keep you more involved, not realizing that moving past the stuff you're not really involved in to the stuff you are is better than giving you a "bit part".
If I were running it, I would have the Red Dragon come out and perhaps harass the airship, just to get them out of his territory. It shouldn't escalate into an all out battle. What may have been more interesting would be some sort of skill challenge. The characters must work with the crew to perform necessary functions on the ship, allowing the crew and passengers to get out of harms way. Done right, it could be a nail biting, edge of your seat escape and a bonding moment between the PCs and NPCs.
I would discuss it with your DM. He sounds new and still in the process of finding his style. Your feedback in this process will help him see that game from a player's point of view.
Here's some: Try telling us what the problem actually IS.
Reading your post I can't really tell.
Are you upset that you met such a dragon at lv.4?
Did you find the combat nigh impossible (as it should have been)?
Did the 2 high lv NPCs aboard hog the spotlight & somehow kill the dragon?
I get the imprssion that it was the last one. But like I said, I can't actually tell....
Also, are you sure that whatever happened wasn't just the DM setting up things for the future? Wich would you rather have? An encounter that establishes something story-wise? Or just being told "There be Dragons".
I had something like that happen awhile back(3.5). The initial encounter the 1st lv party ran into was that the river boat they were traveling on was strafed by an adult green dragon who snatched up a few NPCs & flew off.
My god you should have heard the B******* & crying about CR etc etc etc. I had to remind the players that just because the encounter involved a dragon, that:
A) I never expected them to be able to stand against it, not at 1st lv anyways.
B) At no point do the monsters go on auto-pilot. It's not a video game, I do have 100% controll over thier actions once the encounter begins (indeed, in this case the beast targeted NPCs & then flew off.)
C) Maybe there was some reason the dragon targeted those NPCs (and there was - it's hard to set up a save-the-princess style scenario without 1st grabbing the victem).
The DM's actions here are not the problem...it is how much time he took in game to do this.
It is sometimes important to provide a cast of characters, including later BBEGs and to "put pcs in their place" reminding them they're not even the most powerful good guys YET.
If this was brief, it could be very well done....like a vignette but with a few rolls. If it was the "DM show", that's a different story.
There are often responses of OMFG!!! your dm gave you something you couldn't beat! HOW LAME. I don't think anyone has said that yet in this thread, but I can see them coming. I think the real issue is the DM playing both sides while you watch.
As a DM, I like to do these kinds of things without rolls, so that the point is made and then the players get back to gaming. However, he may have been trying to keep you more involved, not realizing that moving past the stuff you're not really involved in to the stuff you are is better than giving you a "bit part".
Honestly, while preemptively discrediting counter-arguments is a great strategy when debating, it's not terribly seemly when there isn't an argument to "win". I do agree that the *biggest* problem with the situation the OP was describing, was that it was the DM show, but I don't think that's all of it.
And, to be fair, it *is* true that there is a place for encounters that the players aren't intended to win. However, "putting PCs in their place" encounters are really best used quite sparingly (and preferably with story purposes), and really ought not to be the norm, or else you start running into the Elminster effect.
Further, we have very little information to go on, so it's very difficult to say whether this was intended to be a recurring enemy- my guess lies with "no", given the other details, such as super-leveled NPCs and quasi-artifacts thrown about. The OP isn't giving us much to work with, but given the incredulity at the "floating volcano," it sounds an awful lot like this was intended as a random encounter, in which case an automatic hammergun may be called for.
Hint - more information from RavingDork would be very helpful in diagnosing this problem...
Honestly, while preemptively discrediting counter-arguments is a great strategy when debating, it's not terribly seemly when there isn't an argument to "win". I do agree that the *biggest* problem with the situation the OP was describing, was that it was the DM show, but I don't think that's all of it.
Ah, maybe just a habit from my old debate team.
I have, however seen a number of threads in which people have gotten completely distracted about "no dm should ever put in any monster of a CR that is higher than you can beat, for any reason, EVAR" in response to an original post like the OP here. I was hoping to head off a potential distraction and de-evolution (in my opinion) that has happened before...and gotten threads locked.
That's all.
But, as others have said, more info RavingDork, please!
So you want advice....
Here's some: Try telling us what the problem actually IS.
Reading your post I can't really tell.
Are you upset that you met such a dragon at lv.4?
Did you find the combat nigh impossible (as it should have been)?
Did the 2 high lv NPCs aboard hog the spotlight & somehow kill the dragon?
I get the imprssion that it was the last one. But like I said, I can't actually tell....
Also, are you sure that whatever happened wasn't just the DM setting up things for the future? Wich would you rather have? An encounter that establishes something story-wise? Or just being told "There be Dragons".
I had something like that happen awhile back(3.5). The initial encounter the 1st lv party ran into was that the river boat they were traveling on was strafed by an adult green dragon who snatched up a few NPCs & flew off.
My god you should have heard the B******* & crying about CR etc etc etc. I had to remind the players that just because the encounter involved a dragon, that:
A) I never expected them to be able to stand against it, not at 1st lv anyways.
B) At no point do the monsters go on auto-pilot. It's not a video game, I do have 100% controll over thier actions once the encounter begins (indeed, in this case the beast targeted NPCs & then flew off.)
C) Maybe there was some reason the dragon targeted those NPCs (and there was - it's hard to set up a save-the-princess style scenario without 1st grabbing the victem).
Sorry.
I had several problems with the situation, but the chief thing that bothered me most was that we were all useless and had no point in being in the encounter.
The only way we could hope to hit the dragon (much less hurt it) was to man the ballista. There were 5 of us and only 3 ballista. Myself and one other player got left out (futilly trying to hit 40+ defenses). Even if I had been able to use one, it still would have sucked, because if the ballista grants me a 20+ bonus to hit and deal tons of damage, than I don't matter. Anyone else could man the ballista and get the same bonus. In fact, why not the captain and bosun? They are more than two to three times are level! Let them shoot the dragon!
Other things that bothered me were...
1) The encounter made no sense whatsoever. As far as I can tell the dragon was simply a random encounter. We stumbled into it's territory and it attacked. There was no roleplay AT ALL. Just roll initiative and try not to die. We don't even know the dragon's name.
2) Our clever 15th-level captain (who knows the layout of the land and it's hazards like the back of her hand) somehow stumbled into a longstanding dragon's territory in the first place.
3) For some reason unknown to us players (or our characters), the airship circled the volcano 4 times--it wasn't until our characters came out on deck to ask why we were circling that a dragon emerged.
4) For a random encounter that we were (seemingly) meant to fight, it was a tad too unbalanced.
I'm sure I can think of more if I put my mind to, but I'm probably dwelling on it enough as it is.
Also, it may be worth mentioning that, since I started this thread, my DM confessed that we had completed the all of the prepared portions of his adventure ahead of schedule. He literally did not plan for us to make it to our flight destination in this sitting and was using the dragon as "filler."
That tells us it most defintely was a random encounter, but even then--a level 30 solo!? WHy not a gang of harpies or other level-appropriate flying creatures? It isn't THAT hard to think on your feet is it? A break could have been called while he thought it out, but no. Let's put the fear into them!
I still say you can spin this on its ear and turn it into something story related. Maybe develop a lizard phobia based on seeing such a powerful creature or something. Level 4 characters may be considered heroes, but a level 30 dragon is still a hell of a beast.
Which brings to mind another question. Have you asked your DM why your players are in this world if they already have such powerful people in place like the level 15 ship captain? What is there to motivate you to adventure when someone else could be doing it and doing it better?
Ah, maybe just a habit from my old debate team.
I have, however seen a number of threads in which people have gotten completely distracted about "no dm should ever put in any monster of a CR that is higher than you can beat, for any reason, EVAR" in response to an original post like the OP here. I was hoping to head off a potential distraction and de-evolution (in my opinion) that has happened before...and gotten threads locked.
That's all.
But, as others have said, more info RavingDork, please!
Again, EVAR is a bit strong, but I do think it's something to be used very, very sparingly. I'm not above using a scripted ending to an important encounter, or using overwhelming odds to pressure a party to find a non-combat resolution, mind you, but do it too often, and you'll (rightly) run into accusations of railroading and worse. And I generally wouldn't phrase those uses as "putting the party in their place," for that matter, either; there are plenty of easy was to do that as the DM, anyway; I don't think one really needs to resort to potentially TPKing the party on a bad encounter just to get that point across.
Further, there is the issue of the Elminster effect, when you start throwing out much-higher-level non-adversarial NPCs. Again, there are places and reasons where it makes sense, but it really shouldn't be the norm, even in a "putting the party in their place" sense. Part of it might be that I'm most accustomed to playing Eberron, where even at low levels, the PCs *are* the heroes, but even beyond that: if everyone in the campaign world can do what the PCs do, it kinda raises the question of why anyone would need the PCs to do anything. Why send the appropriate-leveled PCs to deal with the level 2 or 3 goblins harrassing the town, when you could just send two of the level 10 guardsmen to clear them out?
Which brings to mind another question. Have you asked your DM why your players are in this world if they already have such powerful people in place like the level 15 ship captain? What is there to motivate you to adventure when someone else could be doing it and doing it better?
It's Forgotten Realms.
Maybe it was a plot item for later in the game?
maybe the crew was trying to kill you guys in this way, like maybe part of a cult trying to get the crew and himself killed by a dragon? Maybe the cultists believe in trying to get killed by dragons?
You never know!
Though yes, the PC's are the star of the show. Remember the 4e motto?
The one about the PC's being the star of the show? But as a dm, I don't make all the characters the highest level, as that would be rather unrealistic.
Also, it may be worth mentioning that, since I started this thread, my DM confessed that we had completed the all of the prepared portions of his adventure ahead of schedule. He literally did not plan for us to make it to our flight destination in this sitting and was using the dragon as "filler."
That tells us it most defintely was a random encounter, but even then--a level 30 solo!? WHy not a gang of harpies or other level-appropriate flying creatures? It isn't THAT hard to think on your feet is it? A break could have been called while he thought it out, but no. Let's put the fear into them!
And now we know....
BTW, just for the record, sometimes it IS that hard to think on your feet.
Rather than dwell on the precieved negative though, look at it like this;
Your DM just provided all kinds of potential things & hooks that can be spun out into new story lines. And you needn't wait for him to start developing them either.
.Apparently there's now a floating volcano/red dragon lair smack in the middle of what was presumed to be a "safe" shipping lane.
.Where did it come from?
.Who is this great beast?
.Why did the captain circle the volcano repeatedly? (I'd reply: curiosity, maybe preliminary mapping, were I your DM)
Obviously most of these are questions that can't be answered right now while on-boat. But I forsee a desperate need for some heros in the areas near future....
Airship, volcano, dragon?
Seems pretty cool to me.
Land and dismount the ballistae and sell them for huge gold.
I don't see learning the dragon's name, because basically you are intruding into it's lair.
Might be the DM had too much high level NPCs there, BUT you say you are kind of jacked off that they didn't help, and made PCs man the guns while high level guys stood aside?
Seems to me like your problem is you have DMed to much, and are picking apart his game, before the story gets rolling...and he does sound like he's invoked a dragon much too early.
I'd like to hear what happened next, and after that.
There's not enough info here.
To me, it would seem fascinating, motivate me to ask why the +20 ballistae don't hit, etc etc.
..and learn more.
to each his own.
Once you escaped then the questions CCS raised become very interesting.
As a suggestion to your DM: In my opinion, it's better to cut a session short if unsure of what to do than risk putting some idea into play that could be poorly received.
Another option that I like: Keep a set of "generic" encounter/plot hooks available. A short list of these that can be inserted almost anywhere make for easy filler when a session runs longer than the prepared material. Especially good for times when one plot is wrapped up and another isn't ready to begin.
Honestly, I don't see a real problem with this, if I were a player.
Airship, volcano, dragon?
Seems pretty cool to me.
Land and dismount the ballistae and sell them for huge gold.
Sell them? If they weren't guarded by paragon level characters I would steal them and use them on adventurers! The DM said they did like 5d12+9 damage or some such (I later noticed that, that was the 30th-level limited damage from the DMG). With that kind of power (with over +20 bonus or so to hit, who needs anything else? Something of that power would even be worth the trouble of lugging it about.
Might be the DM had too much high level NPCs there, BUT you say you are kind of jacked off that they didn't help, and made PCs man the guns while high level guys stood aside?
Not at all. I was upset because the scene and setup made no sense whatsoever. I also felt useless. The DM actually sat there bragging about his skills and how he had set up the encounter so everyone had something fun to do--while I stood around with nothing to do!
Seems to me like your problem is you have DMed to much, and are picking apart his game, before the story gets rolling...and he does sound like he's invoked a dragon much too early.
I've considered this possibility myself. I couldn't believe that I was the only player at the table upset about the encounter. The other four players weren't upset with the DM, but with me for being negative!
I'd like to hear what happened next, and after that.
There's not enough info here.
The dragon flew up to the ship setting it on fire with its mere presence. He even attacked the hull with his breath weapon. I'm not entirely sure why our wooden ship ddin't immedietly crash into the forests below. The captain, at the helm, attempted to turn the ship away from the volcano and retreat from the dragon while struggling to keep the ship aloft. The bosun gave orders to the crew to load the ballista and ready them to fire (among other various battle orders). The dragon pursued the ship. Most of the characters in our party either fruitlessly attacked the dragon with their personal ranged attacks, fired the ballista to great effect, or contemplated various methods of airship crash survival. (The DM later explained that this is why the NPCs didn't man the ballista, the captain was keeping the ship from crashing and the bosun was keeping the crew organized during the fight.)
After several rounds the captain regained control of the crashing airship and we began to somehow outfly the dragon. After about an hour or so of losing ground, the dragon seemingly gave up the chase (which is odd seeing as we did well over 100 points of damage to it with artifact ballista, you would think it would be ****** enough to pursue us to the ends of the earth).
We stopped for repairs and eventually made it to our intended destination. That's where the game ended for the evening.
Maybe your DM is just a Dragonlance fan, in DL it wouldn't be uncommon to have a few brush ups with highly over powered dragons early in the campaign.
Actually, the DM is a big Dragonlance fan and recenly finished hosting a Dragonlance campaign setting for us (which was actually a LOT of fun).
Not at all. I was upset because the scene and setup made no sense whatsoever. I also felt useless. The DM actually sat there bragging about his skills and how he had set up the encounter so everyone had something fun to do--while I stood around with nothing to do!
I couldn't believe that I was the only player at the table upset about the encounter. The other four players weren't upset with the DM, but with me for being negative!
Since it seems like you've already taken the one constructive step you can take--namely, pull the DM aside and politely point out that you didn't feel like you could participate in the encounter--I'll just say that your frustration is entirely justified.
I've been through an entire campaign that felt that way. At the conclusion of the campaign, we spent two entire sessions on the climactic encounter--only to find out that Zuggtmoy had been using an illusion the whole time, ha ha ha, and we hadn't really damaged her at all! Then St. Cuthbert stepped in to help. (I wish I was exaggerating.)
In this case, though, your DM made a one-time mistake due to running out of prepped material. If it gets to be a habit, you have every right to be alarmed. It sucks, but you're probably going to have to take a deep breath and let this one go.
I'm currently trying to think of some over-powered encounters/skill challenges for players. Seems the points of light, to some people mean really tough good adventurers in a world unable to take care of itself... I think points of light should be the adventurers struggling against the darkness, while at the same time trying to survive to continue the good fight. The world should exist no matter what level you are.
It's Forgotten Realms.
And that is exactly why I do not like that setting..
As others have mentioned, however, the DM now has a great opportunity to introduce many elements of story into the game thanks to this moment. Make a point of showing interest and desire to investigate the odd things that occured and it can act as a catalyst into a wild new adventure for the party. You know, silver lining and all.
BTW, just for the record, sometimes it IS that hard to think on your feet.
And when that occurs the DM should call for a break and take a few moments to ponder the situation. Springing this massive encounter that was way above their heads at random feels like the DM did not want to do what is suggested in the Eberron books. Skip the travel and get to the good stuff. He could have just said they have an eventless flight and arrive in port, but instead sprang a random encounter with a lvl 30 dragon.
Skip the trip or call for a break, those were the best options to the DM.
"I jump over the side [in dreadful fear] that we are going to die a horrible death from the evil dragon! I rather jump to my death than be eaten!"
It would make your DM go "Mmmm? Why are you doing that?"
Fear, can make you do crazy things like "jump out of burning buildings".