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| #1kenlarSep 12, 2010 15:01:38 | So, here's the situation: In my group, we are five people. One of those is a powergamer, which really annoys us, mostly me, actually. Now, he's got full understanding of the rules and everything, but whenever there's a discussion around the table, he keeps arguing with the DM for whatever result will benefit him the most, while being as catastrophic to me as possible. Same thing happens whenever they discuss who takes the money. He always claims all the money or lets one of the other players take it. If they start discussing where to go next, he always thinks he can get to decide, just because he hasn't had a character killed off yet, and because the rest of us "aren't capable of making any smart decisions". This usually leads to my characters getting killed or at the very least down to negative healing surge value. So, I'd like some suggestions on how to solve the problem. The only three options I can think of right now are: 1: Suck it up. 2: Stop playing D&D (which is the one that would have the biggest effect, I think). 3: Kill his characters off in the most horrible ways imaginable when I get to DM starting from February 2011. but any other suggestions are more than welcome. |
| #2miarraSep 12, 2010 15:36:09 | Suggestions? Don't do #1, don't do #2, don't do #3. Instead, talk to the DM, and make it clear how you feel about this player and this situation. - - - |
| #3kenlarSep 12, 2010 15:39:07 | Done that, though it turned out to be more futile than trying to get my opinion through just once in a session (which has a 0.5% chance of success... if not less). |
| #4miarraSep 12, 2010 15:43:27 | Done that, though it turned out to be more futile than trying to get my opinion through just once in a session (which has a 0.5% chance of success... if not less). You've tried talking to the DM about this already, and the DM has done nothing? He hasn't talked to the problem player, or openly discussed how a party should effectively function, nothing? If that's the case, then that's a bit frightening. - - - |
| #5kenlarSep 12, 2010 15:48:35 | Yeah, and it's F-ing annoying. I can't think of any alternative solution, since the DM doesn't care at all, as long as 4 out of 5 people are having fun. |
| #6sallaSep 12, 2010 16:02:34 | Of those three solutions, quitting is the most mature and effective. As I say frequently, killing his character in retribution will solve nothing. There's no point in punishing the character for the actions of the player. The character is merely a symptom; the disease is the player. If the DM won't do anything, you might want to talk to the other players and see if he annoys them as much as you. You might be able to form a 'voting bloc', as it were. Just because he starts barking orders doesn't mean you all have to obey, after all. |
| #7bootss1Sep 12, 2010 16:07:04 | Why don't you talk to the DM about this? The options you listed just seem bad Sucking it up will only make it continue. Quitting d&d is a bit extreme; finding another group may work better. and as for killing him off; that won't solve anything he'll just think your a crappy DM/huge dick. Another idea is that you could RP a monk that uses very little gold and have some good RP moments when that guy starts acting superior ("aren't capable of making any smart decision"). He might take the hint that way. Or you can talk to him out of game and address his dickery. EDIT: reading your posts I think that the voting block/finding another group would be best |
| #8miarraSep 12, 2010 16:15:37 | Yeah, and it's F-ing annoying. I can't think of any alternative solution, since the DM doesn't care at all, as long as 4 out of 5 people are having fun. I was assuming the other players were having issues with the problem player, too, since you said he "annoys us." But if you've tried talking to the DM and he's not doing anything about the problem, I'd suggest looking into other options. Look for a new group. Or ask if the current group would be ok with you starting a you scheduled game a bit sooner (though, if they're as dysfunctional as you're implying, I think I might pass on that option). If you do happen to stick with this group, then I wouldn't advise taking revenge out on the problem player (or anyone else, for that matter). When the DM isn't even attempting to fix the problem, there isn't really a while lot you can do other than start a new game yourself, or find a new group altogether. - - - |
| #9kenlarSep 14, 2010 3:52:40 | Well, during our latest session, the Annoying Player (AP) gave several outright stupid commands to the party, including relinquishing our weapons when we visited the King (while having suspicions that the King's left-hand-man was corrupt). I refused to let my weapon out of sight (PC-background reasons) so I promised that my Falchion of Oaths Fulfilled +3 wouldn't leave it's scabbard, unless the King was in outright danger. We were attacked inside the throne room, and damn, if he didn't regret watching the guards chop at him with his own Fullblade. Later, when we were in a cave, AP said that I should go scout ahead (I have Stealth 10). I refused to risk my character's life and said that he himself could go scout ahead, because he was better suited (pitch-black darkness, he had darkvision and Stealth 20-something, as well as the ability to turn invisible and silent at will, or he could shapeshift into one of the enemies we had fought earlier in the cave). Somehow, AP didn't believe me, so I had to resort to more... unusual tricks: getting the DM and my other allies (including AP's PC's brother) to agree with me. Result: He ended up having to go ahead himself, and as soon as he got in there, look around and see what was in the next room. The rest of us prepared for whatever might be present. As soon as the battle began, he apparently expected us to have darkvision as well, so we had to fight blindly until the AP's PC's brother pick-pocketed a sunrod from AP's PC and dropped it in the middle of the room. Did we piss him off? Yes. Was it worth it? HELL YEAH! Apparently, four on one is enough to change the AP's mind, but one player and the DM is all it takes to go against his orders. So, I won't have to leave the group, as long as the DM agrees with me... which he seems to prefer, which is good, as it allows us to have at least a bit of fun playing. Even the DM has said that AP is more of a dictator than a player. It probably also helps to play based on character-background, rather than just obeying AP's not-at-all-well-thought plans. |
| #10DiachronosSep 14, 2010 7:05:04 | Whenever he tries to get the group to do what he wants, bring up one of his other "brilliant" ideas that have epically failed in the past. Preferably in-character and hilighting how stupid an idea it had been. Example: AP: "We found the bandits who kidnapped the princess, but we should do what they say and give up our weapons so they won't hurt her." You: "Really? Remember what happened when we did that in the King's throne room?" |
| #11rian_kingSep 14, 2010 7:43:26 | It's hard for me to give advice because I am manly hearing from one side of the argument. Are you more annoyed that he is a power gamer. I had that feeling when you put suggestion 3 in there. Kill off his PC when you DM, which is acutally the worst thing you can do. It also sounds like you want to one up him. From these sentences . We were attacked inside the throne room, and damn, if he didn't regret watching the guards chop at him with his own Fullblade. until the AP's PC's brother pick-pocketed a sunrod from AP's PC and dropped it in the middle of the room. Did we piss him off? Yes. Was it worth it? HELL YEAH! Why didn't someone else have a sunrod I will never know. won't have to leave the group, as long as the DM agrees with me... which he seems to prefer, which is good, as it allows us to have at least a bit of fun playing. Even the DM has said that AP is more of a dictator than a player. I honestly can't say much because it sounds l;ike you want to make this guys life as miserable as yours. I think you or him need to find a new group but I can't tell who should split |
| #12FlashbackJonSep 14, 2010 10:04:25 | Seriously. Why did not a single PC without darkvision not have a pocketful of sunrods or a single torch? This seems rather telling about the whole group, really. |
| #13kenlarSep 14, 2010 13:15:45 | The reason why the rest of us don't have sunrods: "I'm the leader, so I get all the loot and money" (more or less his words). Since he carried all the money, the rest of us couldn't purchase any sunrods. Of course, that's only until we pickpocketed him. (maybe we should pickpocket two more and tie strings to each and use them as necklaces?) |
| #14KruskSep 14, 2010 13:43:25 | I can't think of any alternative solution, since the DM doesn't care at all, as long as 4 out of 5 people are having fun. "You don't care that I'm not having fun? I am out of here then, goodbye." I also would probably have said something to the player like "Quit being such an ass, I don't care if you are roleplaying an ass, watch me roleplay not wanting to hang out with an ass." |
| #15AstromathSep 14, 2010 13:43:27 | If he is carrying all the loot, have the DM apply the encumbrance rules. He's weighted down, less effective. As far as the pitch-black cave, if I was unaligned, I probably would have waited a few rounds before going in to help. If I was lawful good, I would have gone in immediately and start to thrash around. If he hits the "leader" he'll apologize later. If I was good, I would go in to help and yell at the "leader" I can't see who to hit and to break out a sunrod so that I can be sure not to hit you. |
| #16vellisSep 14, 2010 14:29:03 | Just because I haven't seen it mentioned yet, has anyone actually, you know, talked to the player in question and told him he's ruining the game for the rest of you? =p If the DM has said that he considers the player more of a dictator than a player, and the other players have to collectively conspire just to get a sunrod out in a dark room, no in game solution is going to solve your problem. You'd be surprised how effective a simple conversation can be. Also, your DM needs to be reminded that it's his table. I can't fathom how he could allow one player to horde all the wealth the party finds. The DM can say all the wealth the annoying player is carrying is evenly distributed among the party and it is so, whether your problem player likes it or not. If he doesn't like how the annoying player is behaving, he needs to tell him that he's going to change or he's going to have to find a new game. That or rocks will frequently start falling on his character =p Again though, rocks falling won't solve the problem. Talk to your problem player. He may not realize just how much he's hindering everyone else's fun. |
| #17rian_kingSep 14, 2010 16:12:24 | The reason why the rest of us don't have sunrods: "I'm the leader, so I get all the loot and money" (more or less his words). Since he carried all the money, the rest of us couldn't purchase any sunrods. Of course, that's only until we pickpocketed him. There maybe bigger problems with the group then this one guy. Are you sure wasn't trying to just keep track of loot and not carring it all. In my game I keep track of the loot, but I don't carry it all. It's just easier if one person keeps track of it. |
| #18sallaSep 14, 2010 19:48:52 | The reason why the rest of us don't have sunrods: "I'm the leader, so I get all the loot and money" (more or less his words). Since he carried all the money, the rest of us couldn't purchase any sunrods. Of course, that's only until we pickpocketed him. Sounds like it's time for an election to me. This guy doesn't get that leaders are given power by their followers, they cannot simply claim it. A leader that nobody follows is not a leader ... and you should definitely not follow this guy. If you're not willing to just pack up, and now that it seems obvious that the rest of your party doesn't like his character and are willing to confront him en masse, you might want to just have your characters ditch his character. Really, this guy's pushy, greedy, foolish, and seems to have no issues with endangering everybody else while satisfying his needs for a power trip. Why would you hang around with him? |
| #19kenlarSep 15, 2010 6:50:37 | Well, I don't really see much of an opportunity for finding another group, seeing as how I know no other people within a 25km radius who play D&D. But I think I'll follow Salla's advice with ditching his character... for now. After all, He's done the same several times when I was close to dying (AKA I was almost at -bloodied value HP), so I guess a bit of 'Divine Retribution' is in order (if I can convince the DM to help us rebel against the jerk-player. Otherwise it's just regular retribution). Also, he's not just willing to endanger us. He's trying to get our characters killed while his can just sit back and relax. New strategy: sit back and relax for the duration of our next boss encounter. Let's see if that will make him see what he's doing wrong. |
| #20rian_kingSep 15, 2010 7:09:42 | Well, I don't really see much of an opportunity for finding another group, seeing as how I know no other people within a 25km radius who play D&D. But I think I'll follow Salla's advice with ditching his character... for now. After all, He's done the same several times when I was close to dying (AKA I was almost at -bloodied value HP), so I guess a bit of 'Divine Retribution' is in order (if I can convince the DM to help us rebel against the jerk-player. Otherwise it's just regular retribution). I really think this is the wrong path to go down. Trying to resolve out of game issues in game never ends well |
| #21vellisSep 15, 2010 7:38:47 | Well, I don't really see much of an opportunity for finding another group, seeing as how I know no other people within a 25km radius who play D&D. But I think I'll follow Salla's advice with ditching his character... for now. After all, He's done the same several times when I was close to dying (AKA I was almost at -bloodied value HP), so I guess a bit of 'Divine Retribution' is in order (if I can convince the DM to help us rebel against the jerk-player. Otherwise it's just regular retribution). Avoiding a real life confrontation by screwing him over in game isn't going to solve the problem, it's going to make it worse. You know what else will make him see what he's doing wrong? Telling him what he's doing wrong =p |
| #22rian_kingSep 15, 2010 7:49:38 | I can't imagine this guy is really taking all the loot and not 1 person say "hey you are not taking my gold" |
| #23CCSSep 15, 2010 12:13:03 | The reason why the rest of us don't have sunrods: "I'm the leader, so I get all the loot and money" (more or less his words). Since he carried all the money, the rest of us couldn't purchase any sunrods. Of course, that's only until we pickpocketed him. Or maybe, when he's deciding how the loots to be split, you all just tell him how it's really going to happen. Up to & including ignoring him when he speaks and writing the shares you agree upon down on your character sheets. In fact? Do this as you see fit any time he starts issuing orders. Just because he's talking doesn't mean you're listening to him. Afterall, he has no real way to enforce his will on you. |
| #24KruskSep 15, 2010 13:06:24 | Well, I don't really see much of an opportunity for finding another group, seeing as how I know no other people within a 25km radius who play D&D. My town has literally 2 stoplights in it. I regularly get notifications about groups forming. I set my parameters saying "I'm not driving more than an hour". (and narrowed it to appropriate systems, and IIRC average player age 18+) You would be surprised just how many people play some form of RPG. |
| #25theunknownreturnsSep 15, 2010 14:48:25 | I am the first to speak of in-game revenge, but if you start killing him when you're the DM will prove nothing. It will just make you lose face with the others. Maybe he's just playing a leader character and he htinks it's really his roleto boss arund the group. If you could get him into another class or character, with the help of poison maybe?, then that could go a long way to helping out, especially if he doesn't know who did it (plausible deniability goes a long way). I've actually sat on the side lines of combat before drinking ale. My step dad told me of story of the QB thought he was the only thing that mattered in the game, so once, in practice, he hicked the ball and the guys in front didn't block any defenders. It's hard to be bad ass on your back. 'Well get in there, big bones badass and show us how it's done!' Also, feel free to loot your stuffback. Your just taking what is already yours, or that which is in the group kiddy. We never use that, btw. You pull the boots off your own kill and keep up with your own equipment. Can you talk to any of the other players? Where do you all play? How well do you know each other? What is your out of game relationship? If he's a nobody that you meet at such and such place then inform the others of the new play spot, but don't send him the memo. I've had a few dudes in my time I wish I could just ditch. One guy would copy your character in almost every aspect and then tout it as his idea. Then, I guess in doppleganger fashion, he would try to kill the original. |
| #26navar100Sep 15, 2010 19:30:35 | Your problem is not the player being a power gamer. Power gaming has nothing at all to do what you are saying. Power gaming is a function of game mechanics, not the play of the game. Your problem is the player is a Real Jerk. Usually they're a bit more subtle in their ways, but once in awhile they do like to lord over everyone else. |
| #27zmortisSep 16, 2010 8:25:19 | This is not a min-max munchkin you are describing. This is a character taking the leadership role in the party because no one else is challenging his statements about leading the party. This can be managed in game without becoming petty, or "campaigning" with the other players and DM to undermine this player. Let him play his character, and you play yours. If he has a good idea, then don't sabotage it, help it happen. If he has a bad idea, then suggest in character a better idea. The best way to stop a bad leader, is to step forth as a fair handed better leader. You may find it surprising how quickly the other characters step in line behind your character if you behave like a leader instead of a jealous sheep. When he tries to make a unilateral decision without discussion, call a party vote on the matter. If he tries to take all the items, make sure you are passing notes to the DM indicating which bodies you are looting in what order, so he can determine whether you beat him to the punch for an item. This guy can't be everywhere ahead of your character. If he does not want to share the quest rewards, insist that before you undertake an adventure that your reward is paid separately from his or the parties reward, or else you will simply stay in the tavern. The other players should catch on soon, and emulate your character's behavior if he bugs them as much as you. As a player I will often try to take the party leader role (even as a striker) and I will sometimes make bad decisions in an attempt to role play my character over player knowledge. I fully expect the other party members to step up and challenge my decisions when I am role playing them as bad ones based on my character flaws. As a player I also know when to step back, and accept a party concensus about the approach to take with an adventure. It may well be that he is a horrible player trying to run over the other players as a munchkin, or else it may well be that he is role playing player waiting for someone to challenge his authority when he makes a bad choice. Not knowing the player it is hard to tell which, and only by stepping up and trying to fairly lead the party yourself will the discover the truth of it. I hope this helps. |
| #28TimmehSep 16, 2010 8:38:42 | I've actually got a uniform rule about loot in any game I play. If a player is stealing or keeping money from the party, then I quit that game, any games I also play with that person, and ban that person from my games. I've never had a problem with people stealing loot, because usually the loot goes this way: Everyone splits the gold and we rely on the DM/Players to equally dole out magic items to each player. I have had some problems with DM's ripping me off though. |
| #29FlashbackJonSep 16, 2010 10:24:51 | The reason why the rest of us don't have sunrods: "I'm the leader, so I get all the loot and money" (more or less his words). Since he carried all the money, the rest of us couldn't purchase any sunrods. King Arthur: I am your king. Woman: Well I didn't vote for you. King Arthur: You don't vote for kings. Woman: Well how'd you become king then? [Angelic music plays... ] King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king. Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. |
| #30kenlarSep 16, 2010 15:17:46 | This is not a min-max munchkin you are describing. This is a character taking the leadership role in the party because no one else is challenging his statements about leading the party. This can be managed in game without becoming petty, or "campaigning" with the other players and DM to undermine this player. Let him play his character, and you play yours. If he has a good idea, then don't sabotage it, help it happen. If he has a bad idea, then suggest in character a better idea. So... In short: Think of a better plan than him, and throw it on the table, and leave it to the others to decide which plan to follow? Or should we go for a more democratic approach? Or even settle it during the upcoming PvP tournament the DM is planning for us (where the winner also becomes a royal knight)? I think I'd prefer a combination of the two first (putting forth my own ideas and letting the party vote on which plan to follow, despite knowing they'll probably stick with his, because he currently rules over the party through tyranny and is capable of killing their characters if they don't follow his orders). |
| #31kermltSep 16, 2010 15:19:22 | I am not familiar with 4.0 rules but I'd like to contribute to this discussion. Cause and action. People make characters for a number of reasons. I love fleshing out new characters but I get bored with them and move on. So, naturally, I love DMing since it gives me the opportunity to create NPCs to have fun with. Some other people create characters that they wish would be more like real life. The scrawny player with the brute character. The charismatic character to the social inept player. The bully character who couldn't get his way in real life. Etc. Under 3.0 or 3.5 rules, it is understood that the person with the highest attribute is effectively leader during that part of game play. The Bard who is our face man with the highest charisma is the one we send out to talk to others. The Intimidator which used to be our brute character (now is the Bard since Intimidate is a Cha based skill) would take over during interrogations. The Healer would strategize with plans of attack (since he's the only player with military training and knows about tactics). The character with the highest Int should lead the group under normal situations. The problem is when the player cannot pull off the Int score and others are relying on them. In those situations, you get guidance from the DM. If others in the group wouldn't mind you leading them into battle, then switch out your character to one that has more skills with leadership, tactics, etc. You don't have to be the fastest in the group and excell at everything. The key is brains over brawn. If that's not your cup of tea, then have your group join an NPC guild or organization. They give you the orders and you follow them. The DM may leave the orders as vague and this may not work. It seems like the DM doesn't want to get involved in the conflict since either he's afraid of the player or dislikes confrontations. The last thing is deception. Martial artists use the opponents strength as a weakness. You could be sly and make him think that he's pulling the strings. If he goes against everything you say, then say the opposite. You want to take out the bad guys on the docks, tell him it's too dangerous and the group should call in for support. Find out what motivates that character and/or player and use that. You may want to do some light reading on Organizational Behavior since it talks about this very subject. |
| #32zmortisSep 16, 2010 15:56:40 | So... In short: Think of a better plan than him, and throw it on the table, and leave it to the others to decide which plan to follow? Or should we go for a more democratic approach? Or even settle it during the upcoming PvP tournament the DM is planning for us (where the winner also becomes a royal knight)? I think I'd prefer a combination of the two first (putting forth my own ideas and letting the party vote on which plan to follow, despite knowing they'll probably stick with his, because he currently rules over the party through tyranny and is capable of killing their characters if they don't follow his orders). If his character is ruling through tyranny, then challenge it. In character call him a tyrant. Vote with the other characters in character to remove him from the party if he makes threats of violence against you. If he tries to effectively carry out those threats, then run away, and summon the local authorities to deal with him. Hire an assassin's guild to eliminate him if that is what it takes to be free of his tyranny. Having the party flee his character as if it were worse than the monsters they are facing should wake him up some as a player. When he finds that the campaign moved to a "Eliminate the dangerous rogue adventurer" focus based on his bullying behavior, then maybe the player will wake up. If he is not as much of a tyrant as you are making him out to be, then simply questioning his bad advice and putting forth a better plan, while insisting on an equal cut of all treasure should suffice. No one player can do it all, and it will become clear to him that when everyone abandons him in the depths of a dungeon he's made a big tactical error in trying to bully his party members one time too many. Also no character is so optimized that they can't be dealt with by an entire party acting in coordination together. If you are a typical five member adventuring crew, then four on one odds should be sufficient to get him to back down no matter how optimized his character is. A couple of you may go down, but he is bound to lose in the end. If nothing else he will lose by becoming a solo adventurer without a party, and with none of your new characters being willing to invite him to their new party based on his party killer behavior. |
| #33Pashalik_MonsSep 16, 2010 16:28:18 |
Putting forth multiple ideas and asking the group to decide as a whole is a democratic approach. If his character would kill theirs if they don't follow his orders, this goes back to a problem with the player. He needs to chill, and accept that he is a part of a group of equals, not your boss. |
| #42kenlarOct 30, 2010 15:57:27 | Well, it seems like this thread can pretty much die now. We have come to a solution, without any of us having to leave the group (I know of no other groups in Denmark, so finding one would be easier said than done). Our solution: Neither of us tells the other what to do. Coming with suggestions is okay, though, as long as they remain as nothing but suggestions or hints as to what to do. |