Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shalur Dec 21, 2008 0:12:19	We are a small party... 2-3 players: ranger & paladin... cleric and fighter and wizard, etc. Its not ideal but it works ok. What's odd is that our DM keeps having the monsters attack the weakest link... the wizard... or the ranger... or the cleric... instead of characters like the paladin or the fighter. It doesn't matter whether we're fighting a horde of goblins, a dragon, or a human-- it doesn't matter if I'm a paladin and I use divine challenge-- always he attacks the low-ac squishy class. Is this normal behavior? It's pretty annoying! Why do I have all this AC and HP if I'm not going to get to use it?
#2 eldiran Dec 21, 2008 0:22:40	That's actually commendable behavior on his part, strategically speaking. Generally the wise thing to do is kill any creatures that fall easier or deal more damage, i.e., the "low-ac squishy class". All you can do is do your best as a defender and punish monsters for this choice. Perhaps your DM is even trying to hint to you to up your defending game?
#3 salla Dec 21, 2008 0:54:46	If the opposition is even close to intelligent, yes. It's better to pick of weaker targets than bash through their armored bodyguards to get there. Marking the opponents will help extend the lifespan of your softer targets anyway; the attacker will take a -2 to hit them (and, in the paladin's case, take some damage on top of it). You may want to recommend that your party members take some powers that help them get some distance. The wizard can use Thunderwave to push the target (if he didn't dump wisdom), and Rangers have a crapload of powers that let them shift, for example.
#4 kouk Dec 21, 2008 3:19:18	The answer can really vary, depending on what you are fighting and specifically how the DM views those creatures as behaving. If the DM views Goblins as incredibly cunning, craven, sneaky bastards, it's quite possible they would target whoever looked the least threatening first or just go for the easy kill. If your DM views Goblins as relatively stupid and concerned with self preservation, it is quite possible they would go for the person in front of them and not want to risk Opportunity Attacks regardless of their current HP. However, being a Defender means that if monsters ignore you, you are going to punish them for it. That's the counterbalance you have. Keep the enemies marked and they die faster for ignoring you. Stay nearby and at the very least use the Wizard for flanking. In a damage sense, it's actually better for the group if the enemies ignore you completely. Now, with 3 players you will have issues with exposure to enemies. You just can't guard all the soft characters perfectly if they are 2 of the 3 bodies in the dungeon with you. You also should all build your characters to cooperate because you can't specialize quite so much. This may mean certain feat or power choices that are chosen for the greater survivability of the group, rather than the how fun it seems to you. Maybe that means the Wizard takes Leather armor proficiency and staff of defense instead of staying cloth and wand. Maybe it means the Ranger holds back on using his major attack for awhile until there are fewer enemies he would get the attention of when he pulls the guns out. Maybe everyone sticks a little closer to the Defender than they otherwise might prefer to. If a Wizard focuses on defense, he can get comparable AC to a Paladin, and the mark might just make him harder to hit than you. What you should definitely do though is ask your DM what he bases the monsters' decisions on, so you can at least know in advance what the signals are. Maybe it's the amount of armor worn, regardless of actual AC (a Swordmage may seem less threatening in that case). Maybe it's the amount of damage being done to a particular creature. Maybe it's how many insults a player is hurling at a certain monster. Once you know in general how the DM has monsters act, you can better deal with it. You can also tell him though that sometimes you would like to fight enemies who are just dumb animals :P
#5 johnnii Dec 21, 2008 8:35:46	Well, if the DM wants his monsters to take all that additional damage from combat challenge and divine challenge, nothing is stopping him. I would be pretty glad if my fighter was granted one or two extra attacks every round as well as keeping them locked in place.
#6 mistrlittlejeans Dec 21, 2008 10:51:48	We are a small party... 2-3 players: ranger & paladin... cleric and fighter and wizard, etc. Its not ideal but it works ok. What's odd is that our DM keeps having the monsters attack the weakest link... the wizard... or the ranger... or the cleric... instead of characters like the paladin or the fighter. It doesn't matter whether we're fighting a horde of goblins, a dragon, or a human-- it doesn't matter if I'm a paladin and I use divine challenge-- always he attacks the low-ac squishy class. Is this normal behavior? It's pretty annoying! Why do I have all this AC and HP if I'm not going to get to use it? This is great for fighter/paladin characters, even rangers. That's free damage! The wizard should use Thunderwave over and over and over and over and over...
#7 shalur Dec 21, 2008 11:19:27	Cool. We are already doing some of these things and I will take the rest of your suggestions to heart. Was just curious if this was normal. And yes, -2 to hit is a very fun thing
#8 ace_of_time Dec 21, 2008 16:30:56	In 3.5 we always had the wizard keep 2-3 combust spells on hand in case the DM started that kind of thing. Now they keep the Flaming sphere close enough where they think twice before heading that way. Try telling the wizard to stay behide you so they have a harder time getting around to the wizard.
#9 Neutronium_Dragon Dec 21, 2008 17:42:55	One other thing that you might want to gently point out is that unlike previous editions and much of fantasy, the wizard is *not* automatically the most powerful and dangerous member of the party whom the enemies absolutely will want to take out first. If he's basing his tactics on those thoughts, he's making a significant mistake.
#10 salla Dec 21, 2008 20:25:36	One other thing that you might want to gently point out is that unlike previous editions and much of fantasy, the wizard is *not* automatically the most powerful and dangerous member of the party whom the enemies absolutely will want to take out first. If he's basing his tactics on those thoughts, he's making a significant mistake. This is true. He is most likely, however, the *easiest* target to eliminate, and the sooner you take down one opponent, the easier the rest of the fight becomes.
#11 darksavior Dec 22, 2008 5:39:57	If the DM is doing everything within the rules of the table, and it makes sense that the monster's he is using could apply at least this much combat strategy, then he is just playing smart. As another poster hinted, he may be trying to get you/your party to think and act more strategically as well.
#12 Philip Dec 22, 2008 9:02:46	When my wife dm's she is always going after my weakest links and I have to work like hell to defend them. It makes the defenders actually have to defend, and not just stand there as monsters mindlessly whack at their high AC and massive amount of surges.
#13 CCS Dec 22, 2008 13:04:52	Yes. 4e is as much miniture wargame as it is anything else. And in a miniture wargame it's all about eliminating the other guys units/reducing his options. So as long as the DMs willing to take the neg. effects to attack a different target..... Oh, and all you're HP & AC? Don't worry, once the other PCs are down those'll become important.
#14 johnnii Dec 22, 2008 13:12:31	Solution: Make a fighter with a maul or make a paladin with pumped charisma. Resolution: The more he ignores either of these defenders, the more you profit :D
#15 ace_of_time Dec 22, 2008 17:53:13	Make a large ranger with a speciality in double shot and weapon pro in a great bow. Then you can just use the wizard as bait.:D
#16 the_black_hand Dec 22, 2008 19:10:22	Make a large ranger with a speciality in double shot and weapon pro in a great bow. Then you can just use the wizard as bait.:D If the guy playing the wizard isn't paranoid then your dm just isn't doing his job right. (this goes for any edition)
#17 wyld_mutation Dec 22, 2008 20:38:54	Have the wizard take a few movement powers as well. The enemies WANT to go after him? Force them to chase you through your allies. Combine that with defensve options... Well, Wizards are capable of reacing Defender level survivability. Look into the FRPG Wizard PP's and feats. There are several which will make entering melee with the Wizard... less healthy.
#18 gargs454 Dec 23, 2008 11:47:37	Think about the flip side of the argument. The BBEG is in his fortified keep. You need to kill him. The gates are thick and heavily defended. The walls have archers stationed every 10 feet., etc. etc. However, you discover a long forgotten tunnel that eventually opens up in the bottom level of the keep. This tunnel is currently unguarded since nobody but your group knows about it. Now, do you go through the front door, or through the tunnel?
#19 morganm Dec 23, 2008 13:27:23	If your DM does this tactic every time for every opponent then he's out of line as he's metagaming and not roleplaying the opponent. A gelatinous cube doesn't know a wizard from a warrior and behaves much more different than a drow. Now if he's doing this with intelligent opponents or monsters that have enough intuition to figure out the weakest link then he's just using good tactics. Afterall your opponents are trying to defeat you (not the DM!) so they will employ their best tactics to win.
#20 ace_of_time Dec 23, 2008 21:57:31	Most DMs use guidelines. Low intelligence monsters attack the closest. Smart ones have tactics. Some that have seen wizards in action might go for them first, if they rolled the info check to indentify him as a wizard. (some how I don't think that he/she did.) Some just take out the weak ones like lurkers. Not every monster is going top go for the wizard unless there is a story based reason for it. So there is ether a story based reason for these actions or he is picking on the wizard.
#21 ket Dec 27, 2008 9:06:31	Cool. We are already doing some of these things and I will take the rest of your suggestions to heart. Was just curious if this was normal. And yes, -2 to hit is a very fun thing Yeah, it's normal. And in 4.0 you'll love the results if you choose appropriate powers (marking targets for example). The DM's doinitrite IMO - depending on the intelligence of the creatures you're meeting. The players can adjust their powers and skills to capitalize on this reality as well, and turn a disadvantage into an advantage that you welcome. Yeah, he's doing it right. And so are you. Just hunker down and get through it until you get the powers you need to make this your "ideal situation" as opposed to it bugging you.