Sounds like your girlfriend is the one who's trouble in this situation. Tell her if she can't put her big girl panties on and handle gaming with other women, you'll be happy to play with her in another game where she can be the sole female and she can sit this one out.
Don't let her, or anyone else, tell you who you can or can't play D&D with. If they don't like it, they don't have to play.
No, females in gaming aren't a problem.
It's the relationship. When you and your gf found a +5 vorpal scimitar, both of you are melee strikers, and one of you gets it, the other is sleeping on the couch.
It takes a very stable relationship to game with your gf. Whether you or her are the gm or players. I've only had one couple able to keep up, and they had been married for twenty years.
Females aren't the problem.
It's the relationship. When you and your gf found a +5 vorpal scimitar, both of you are melee strikers, and one of you gets it, the other is sleeping on the couch.
It takes a very stable relationship to game with your gf. Whether you or her are the gm or players. I've only had one couple able to keep up, and they had been married for twenty years.
Really?
Interesting. IME, this sort of issue almost never comes up. No one I've gamed with expected any special treatment when gaming.
-shrug-
maybe my friends are odd.
I bring it up because it is often times something I see with female players more than male players but, to be clear, it is by no means limited to female players. It is the idea of the sheltered tag-along character.
I have had several instances of females gamers who only play because their significant other plays and they don't put the same amount of effort into the game that their bf/husband does. Again, this can totally happen with little brothers/best friends/husbands and the wife is a gamer, but I most often see this with women. I guess we could call it the Parasite player.
The female players often go one of a few routes from there.
1) They don't care. They are bored and distracted at table, often miss game, and cause their Host to miss game as well. Even when they are there they don't understand the rules of the game and don't want to, but they want to be included like everyone else. They take horribly long turns and are notoriously thin-skinned if anything doesn't go their way.
2) Regardless of experience they don't know how to player. The Parasite can go years playing in a system and never really figure out the basics of the game. This pulls the speed of the table down dramatically if it is ever something where the party needs the Parasite to do something.
3) They are useless without their Hosts. I see this more in online gaming than in tabletops, but the wife player who always is protected from criticism by the presence of their hubby can be in for a very rude awakening if they ever take that attitude somewhere without them or get into any sort of competitive environment. If their Hosts are present for the critiques they can often get more agitated than the Parasite themselves.
4) They do care about at least some part of the game and want to dominate it. Most often I've seen this in one particular aspect: They want to make the entire story about them. I know a local female player who is extremely difficult to deal with in any game that isn't completely focused around her character being the most important thing to the plot where everyone else plays side characters. This can lead to a lot of cheating. I've had a player like this get very confused when they were called out because they blatantly cheated on their stat allocations. I've also seen a female gamer who had a DM screen +10 who just wanted to have the power of murdering all of her players (in Encounters no less).
Now all that being said I can offer up a few people as strong counterpoints.
- I have a local female gamer who is amazing at RP, places the social contract above her own self and basically makes every table she plays at a better place. Her first time doing table top RPGs ever she had to be the moral compass of my table and did a phenomenal job.
- Another female gamer who is amazing at RP. She is slow at the mechanics and actually taking her turn, but her ability to be the "mother" of the party without actually being domineering at the table really sets the mood for the table.
And you can totally have female gamers, just like male gamers, be a mix of all of the above. My wife plays at one of my tables and I will say she has aspects of the very problem I am describing (She doesn't know the rules well even though she has been playing for a couple of months and often gets bored outside of her turn and causes distractions). But knowing where the problems lay have made this a much better experience. The Host has to let the person they bring along sink or swim on their own. If they do, it can become more than a Host-Parasite relationship at table. If they don't someone will dream of the day when the Parasite isn't at table.
Edit: It is worth noting that I have 3 females that play at my saturday table. And nobody butts heads more often because they are all female. However I have had to kick out a problem female player from that very table.
Edit: It is worth noting that I have 3 females that play at my saturday table. And nobody butts heads more often because they are all female. However I have had to kick out a problem female player from that very table.
And people talking about couples and gaming, I don't see any problem with that either. I play in the same games as my bf and there are several other couples who game with us in various games.
Being a female or being in a couple doesn't make you problematic, only being a problematic person can do that.
People cause problems in games, not their genders, or their relationships. If a person is problematic, it's likely that they would be problematic whether they brought their girlfriend, their boyfriend, their dog, or just their unlovely personality.
FTR, we have several women in our regular group, and none of them cause any problems that aren't caused with exactly the same frequency by men.
It's for reasons like these, that there aren't more women playing games like these.
Good lord, will you guys listen to yourselves and stop projecting your personal problems with women, onto women in general? It makes the rest of us look bad. (The word isn't 'females' by the way, unless you're all 'males')
People cause problems in games, not their genders, or their relationships. If a person is problematic, it's likely that they would be problematic whether they brought their girlfriend, their boyfriend, their dog, or just their unlovely personality.
FTR, we have several women in our regular group, and none of them cause any problems that aren't caused with exactly the same frequency by men.
It's for reasons like these, that there aren't more women playing games like these.
While yes it is true problem gamers are problems regardless of gender. Some problems do tend to manifest more with particular genders.
On the flip side I've never had a problem with the odor of a female gamer, or had a female gamer make uncomfortable advances at a player (well actually once, but less often than males).
And yes I'm using Male-Female.
Good lord, will you guys listen to yourselves and stop projecting your personal problems with women, onto women in general? It makes the rest of us look bad. (The word isn't 'females' by the way, unless you're all 'males')
People cause problems in games, not their genders, or their relationships. If a person is problematic, it's likely that they would be problematic whether they brought their girlfriend, their boyfriend, their dog, or just their unlovely personality.
FTR, we have several women in our regular group, and none of them cause any problems that aren't caused with exactly the same frequency by men.
It's for reasons like these, that there aren't more women playing games like these.
THANK YOU.
Before anyone feels the need to ask "do women cause trouble at the table because of x", please, first replace the word "women" with "people", and see if the question changes. If it doesn't, the problem is not with the gender, but with the person, and you should rephrase your question to reflect that.
The Host-Parasite model is interesting, but if a player relationship devolves into that, you should really ask the Parasite player if they're spending their free time correctly. (and to be clear, this has nothing to do with gender)
Personally (as a player), I have treated woman the same as any member, even though they have been incredably short lived. I remember one person who was there for pretty much all of one session as a Priate and she had her own ship which we would use. As she was the GF's girlfriend, I intially thought there might have been some favouratism. But right on cue she spoke up to the king at the start of the quest, and aggressive nagoisated with any NPC's that dared stand in her way. While she assumed a leadership role for just one session (because she had subsquent work I believe) it was because she was the one who could lead despite knowing almost nothing about DnD. The guy who subsquently took over could speak convincingly, but had a tendency to excessively showboat and horde plot details, which killed susquent campiagns due to his tendencys. Frankly a much worse leader.
Another time in that same campiagn was a druid who had little vocational confidence, but knew the rules and her character and how to behave and actually found the artifact that we were looking for when she raided a ship. It turned out to be a fake to throw us off, but she did what not many of us were capable of doing. Thinking. New people always bring the possiblity of new, less conventional ideas. The only issue was that she had other dedications more importent, which is understandable, I have had times where I didn't show up for 8 sessions because I didn't like the campiagn and found my work much more imporent to me. If people leave, then thats fine as at least they have tried and found that it wasn't for them.
I can't really comment on more then one woman being in the group as we never had that situation, aside from the fact that debating, illogical actions still filter through the group whether they were there or not. Yes, I do agree that women can present problems due to a subcultural difficulty which may, however that should be addressed in a session zero where you discuss what you and the players should expect from this session along with the other issues of group control e.c.t Make sure everyone is on the same page.
Do not make the mistake of letting the game fix it and washing your hands of all responcability. If there is bad blood, then take the responisble parties aside and talk about it civally and all be better for it. Naturally you will be expected to see it from your gf's perspective and take her side, but if you are in a stable relationship then a simple game will simply be a test of that. It's importent that these people around your table are guests at your game, and like all guests they should be treated equally, given the oppunity to have fun at no one elses expense. If these things do flare up, then take responciablity to deal with them and hopefully it will all pan out.
In short, talk to her about it, see who your players are then figure it out what it is you need to do. If a problem turns up, nip it in the bud gently and address the issue before it destablises the group.
Personally I could care less about potical correctness, I don't believe theres anything inherently wrong with anyone playing DnD as long as they recongise the fun is to be shared around the table.
The Host-Parasite model is interesting, but if a player relationship devolves into that, you should really ask the Parasite player if they're spending their free time correctly. (and to be clear, this has nothing to do with gender)
Right, and to be clear it wasn't meant to be a female only thing (I specifically mentioned this in the post). The only thing I was saying is that the problem players that are also female tend to exhibit certain problems. Just like the problem players who are also male tend to exhibit certain problems. There is overlap, but there is also weighting to one side or the other.
Right, and to be clear it wasn't meant to be a female only thing (I specifically mentioned this in the post). The only thing I was saying is that the problem players that are also female tend to exhibit certain problems. Just like the problem players who are also male tend to exhibit certain problems. There is overlap, but there is also weighting to one side or the other.
I can agree it makes sense that this kind of problem player is most often female. The hobby is dominated by men after all, and they want to share their passion with their loved ones, who often happen to be women. But D&D (just like every other hobby) isn't for everyone, so there's a chance the loved one doesn't enjoy it and starts acting like a parasite (to use your terminology).
Two things:
- While you did mention other groups who are also prone to parasitic behavior, I feel you missed an important one: kids. Fortunately my group of players is young enough to still be childless, but I can imagine more than one table that's had to deal with a disinterested 7 year old who gets to play because mom and/or dad do so too, and otherwise there's no game.
- The host-parasite thing can be applied just as easily on men who are dragged by their girlfriend into social stuff that's considered feminine.
I think what I'm trying to say is, be careful when you say something like this about a group, because it has nothing to do with gender. I know you know that, but it bears repeating.
I think what I'm trying to say is, be careful when you say something like this about a group, because it has nothing to do with gender. I know you know that, but it bears repeating.
Everyone has hit at the good points I wanted to make lol so I will give some examples instead.
I have RPed with many girls in various games throughout the years and in general they have all been wonderful, many times outshining the men in the groups in terms of RP and investment.
NOW TO THE OP
Dungeon Master and Girlfriend in the same sentence is walking on very thin ice; in fact the only bad experience I’ve had with a female party member was due to her BF was the DM, and it completely ruined everything.
Here is a list of Why/What to look out for if you are traveling this dangerous road.
1- Favoritism will always be assumed by other players (human nature) from the DM towards the Female players (his GF) character, even if it is not happening (and if you’re a DM worth your salt it won’t happen)
2- The personal life of the DM and his GF player corrodes itself into the game, The female player in my game got constantly mad she was getting knocked out and it led to her and her DM(bf) bickering and him being Gf-pressured to go lighter on her.
I think what I'm trying to say is, be careful when you say something like this about a group, because it has nothing to do with gender. I know you know that, but it bears repeating.
I think what I'm trying to say is, be careful when you say something like this about a group, because it has nothing to do with gender. I know you know that, but it bears repeating.
I'm not saying "this is how all women are everywhere at all times". I'm giving specific examples of problems I have seen at tables. My experience has shown me that certain problems can be along gender lines. Your mileage may vary. But don't tell me what my experience is...
I'm not saying that you do, and I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I'm trying to put words in your mouth or something. I think we both made our points clear, so let's leave it at that
Agreed. I have no qualms with you
.People cause problems in games, not their genders, or their relationships. If a person is problematic, it's likely that they would be problematic whether they brought their girlfriend, their boyfriend, their dog, or just their unlovely personality.
"DM's Girlfriend" and "DM's Boyfriend" are both equally valid problems regardless of the various gender permutations involved.
However, in my experience, dogs are not particularly active roleplayers, and tend to chew up the dice.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct
Please remember to keep your posts polite, on topic and refrain from personal attacks. You are free to disagree with one another as long as it is done in a respectful manner.
It's 2013, guys. Generalizing about gender, race, religion, etc. is no longer acceptable (if it ever was).
1- Favoritism will always be assumed by other players (human nature) from the DM towards the Female players (his GF) character, even if it is not happening (and if you’re a DM worth your salt it won’t happen)
2- The personal life of the DM and his GF player corrodes itself into the game, The female player in my game got constantly mad she was getting knocked out and it led to her and her DM(bf) bickering and him being Gf-pressured to go lighter on her.
Yikes. Guess I'm not very tolerant of things I consider bad behavior, and am really lucky with my wife and friends.
Any GF I've had that tried to pressure me into doing anything that I didn't want to do has been warned once, and then dumped if she did it a second time. No exceptions. I forget that other people aren't so unforgiving about such things.
And anyone that my group thought was giving special treatment would be under some serious group pressure to knock it off.
"I've got whole binders full of women gamers."
It's 2013, guys. Generalizing about gender, race, religion, etc. is no longer acceptable (if it ever was).
Nice.
My experience is that female players aren't any more or less trouble than anyone else, no matter how many you have, but the male players who try to do everything to impress female players are trouble. And by "players" I mean DMs too. Matter of fact, when I've played, it's more often been the DM who kisses up to the female than any of the other players.
Sounds like your girlfriend is the one who's trouble in this situation. Tell her if she can't put her big girl panties on and handle gaming with other women, you'll be happy to play with her in another game where she can be the sole female and she can sit this one out.
Don't let her, or anyone else, tell you who you can or can't play D&D with. If they don't like it, they don't have to play.
As a female player, I agree. This applies to both men and women at the table.
I've never had any issues stemming from them being female. No one has received special treatment. We all have a lot of fun.
So ... I'm gonna say this really isn't a girl/guy issue, its a maturity issue, if it is even an issue at all.
1. Passivity. Females are more commonly the shrinking violets of the table. This is good and bad. Good because they're typically very accommodating in this mode and willing to go with flow. Bad because lurkers of the table aren't particularly interesting, and whenever the time for confrontation comes (IC or OOC) they tend to...well, shrink.
2. Different kind of self-aggrandizement based on sex appeal. My sister haaates this one, and it's funny to hear her rant about this. We've both met a lot of girl roleplayers. I'll try and paraphrase what she said: "They play this character who is suuuper sexy, flipping their hair and such. They also faint a lot and like to get rescued by their equally sexy love interest." I've seen trace amounts of this, but not as much as my sister. Strangely, I haven't seen a male corollary. I would've expected a dumb action hero with big pecs and a giant...well, you know. But nope, hasn't happened yet.
3. The least defensible one is the crunch/math aversion, if my DM is an example. Bless her, she's tenacious, but adding up all those dice wears on her at times. I say least defensible because most girls that I've seen are relatively new to whatever game we're playing; meeting a seasoned veteran girl gamer is rare.
4. Joint problem, but the worst offender is the boyfriend girlfriend combo. You know how it is; someone gets into a relationship, and all their hobbies and friendships fall by the wayside while they attend to whatever it is the other needs. Look dude, I know your girlfriend is super depressed or whatever, but we still have another 90 minutes to go. She'll manage. Another mutation of this I've seen is where one DM often had to do scheduling to make sure problem players never got in the same room. He was really fond of one player, and not fond of his mate. Sadly, they came in pairs, so he had to bite the bullet and accept a necessary evil every time he wanted to play with the guy.
5. Best for last; this is my favorite RP story. A camp counselor was introducing some lads to RPGs, and gave them a rules-lite system that let them play whatever they could imagine. Two boys, one girl. One boy picked a dwarf that was made of metal who dual-wielded axes, and the other picked a martial arts monkey who was made of fire, including a fiery beard. The girl played a normal human girl with one power: They could show anyone what they desired most.
I just love that split. One side makes something based on rule of cool, and the other makes something genuinely interesting, if a bit Mary Sue.
Extra tidbit: Girl gamers are the only ones I've seen that dye their hair in anime colors.
"I've got whole binders full of women gamers."
It's 2013, guys. Generalizing about gender, race, religion, etc. is no longer acceptable (if it ever was).
Not entirely wrong for some generalization. Not everyone is the same, and not everyone thinks the same or will enjoy the same games styles, and gender and cultural background can and will effluence this.
most issues with women players is likely due to a conflict in play style. This can happen regardless of gender, but is sometimes harder for males to understand when it comes to women, that is some men have difficulty reading their female players. Ie women are timid wallflowers could really be, our group is immature, gruff and uncouth, and we scare mature people away (that includes most women lol)
My experience is that female players aren't any more or less trouble than anyone else, no matter how many you have
This.
5. Best for last; this is my favorite RP story. A camp counselor was introducing some lads to RPGs, and gave them a rules-lite system that let them play whatever they could imagine. Two boys, one girl. One boy picked a dwarf that was made of metal who dual-wielded axes, and the other picked a martial arts monkey who was made of fire, including a fiery beard. The girl played a normal human girl with one power: They could show anyone what they desired most.
I just love that split. One side makes something based on rule of cool, and the other makes something genuinely interesting, if a bit Mary Sue.
Did you go to Piomingo as a kid? Totally plausible that some other camps have done the same thing and gotten the same situation, but that happened when I introduced games to my camp...
Though I'm fuzzy on the details, it was a story shamelessly stolen from someone else, possibly even here. If that was you, kudos.
Ahh, yes I was recognizing my own story told back to me. There goes a futile hope of mine
."I've got whole binders full of women gamers."
It's 2013, guys. Generalizing about gender, race, religion, etc. is no longer acceptable (if it ever was).
Not entirely wrong for some generalization. Not everyone is the same, and not everyone thinks the same or will enjoy the same games styles, and gender and cultural background can and will effluence this.
most issues with women players is likely due to a conflict in play style. This can happen regardless of gender, but is sometimes harder for males to understand when it comes to women, that is some men have difficulty reading their female players. Ie women are timid wallflowers could really be, our group is immature, gruff and uncouth, and we scare mature people away (that includes most women lol)
DnD players don't understand women? Who'd've thought?
No. Next topic.
If only.
were you in any of the "satyrs can only be male!" threads?
It'll get locked eventually.
Instead, we had people kissing up and knocking down, resulting in a lot of unneeded passion. In truth naither perspective was importent, merely the experiences relivent experiences (both good and bad)and the best way to resolve that. He didn't need a rather pointless debate over the matter as he only wanted help with his diffcult situation of being caught between his gf and his hobby. This isn't any different from any other quiry regarding problem players or situations in that it should be answered as neutrally minded as possible.
It's only because there are people who are too senstive around this issue. This guy is asking advice on something his girlfriend wanted but he didn't necessaraly agree with, a simple "No, there shouldn't be any problems, and while there are some problems that could be associated with cultural issues, for mature adults like yourselves it shouldn't be any problem as while there have been times this has happened, it's dependant entirely on how you handle it. So there are only two options. If you have a lot of female friends, she may have to try it. But otherwise dont' force the issue as it may ailenate her, keeping in mind that not every person is an immensely social being and may prefer not to put up with people that make her socially unconfortable, at least intially. " Thats the question answered, job done and everyone is smiling.
Instead, we had people kissing up and knocking down, resulting in a lot of unneeded passion. In truth naither perspective was importent, merely the experiences relivent experiences (both good and bad)and the best way to resolve that. He didn't need a rather pointless debate over the matter as he only wanted help with his diffcult situation of being caught between his gf and his hobby. This isn't any different from any other quiry regarding problem players or situations in that it should be answered as neutrally minded as possible.
You're new to the internet, aren't you?
OP, from one guy to another, if you feel her fear is unfounded tell her so. Don't argue or get hostile, but stick to your guns if you think she is being irrational. She might get mad, she might pout, she might call you names, she might cry, but She will love you for it. If she is jealous of of girls sharing in your hobby, good. Some jealously means she values you and your relationship.
Two of the other players are dating and we get an issue when the boy tells the girl what powers or bonuses or whatever her character has, but I just politely shush him and then ask her what her character is doing. Then we move on.
I'm having a hard time buying any of the generalities posed in this thread because my wife is a bit of a thinker or a powergamer and the other lady in the party is more an actor and really cares about the story.
tl;dr I have 5 PCs in my current campaign and if it wasn't for the different octaves of the voices I'd have no idea who was saying or doing what while I'm hiding behind my screen frantically checking stat blocks.
Ok, so I'm taking issue with the girlfriend or boyfriend of the DM is a bad idea part of this thread. I DM and my wife of 5 years is a player. She played the first character who "died" in the game, and is sitting in the middle of the party as far as cool magical items and the like. The fact is that since we live together I get to run ideas past her and get her feedback on what might be interesting for the group, I'd probably get that if I was at the time in my life when I had roommates and one of them was also in the game.
Two of the other players are dating and we get an issue when the boy tells the girl what powers or bonuses or whatever her character has, but I just politely shush him and then ask her what her character is doing. Then we move on.
I'm having a hard time buying any of the generalities posed in this thread because my wife is a bit of a thinker or a powergamer and the other lady in the party is more an actor and really cares about the story.
tl;dr I have 5 PCs in my current campaign and if it wasn't for the different octaves of the voices I'd have no idea who was saying or doing what while I'm hiding behind my screen frantically checking stat blocks.
Agree. At my table is myself and my fiancee, an engaged couple, and a divorced couple. That's right, they are divorced, he is remarried, and we all still play D&D together. Never had any issues.
Two of the other players are dating and we get an issue when the boy tells the girl what powers or bonuses or whatever her character has, but I just politely shush him and then ask her what her character is doing. Then we move on.
I have to do this too! I have to remind my friend's boyfriend that she won't learn if he keeps telling her what to do.
My group is also made up of couples, because that's just how my friends are. All of us, except one couple who have recently started dating, are in long term relationships. Everyone was interested in playing, not one person was a tag-along, so it just turned into this big couple-y thing.
I have to say, though, when I asked for character backstories, I was a bit surprised that none of them made couple backstories. I thought at least one (probably the newest pair) would do it, but they all made separate stories where they didn't know each other before.
There are a lot of couples who can play together and be fine. Thats not always the case, and it ties into one of three situations, that have basically become tropes.
To start there is the "DMs girlfriend". Basically, this person is the signifigant other of the DM and ruins the game. They take advantage of the DM being hesitant to upset them, and everyone knows their PC is the best, and nothing bad happens to it.
You've also got the "Disinterested Girlfriend" player type. This is the SO of the DM who came because they didn't want to stay home. They have no interest in playing, don't know the rules and aren't really paying attention.
The third is the "Gamer Couple" whose PCs are always dating in game, and metaphorically or in one case I sat through for a session or two literally making out the entire time.
*Note I didn't come up with the terms, and the Disinterested Girlfriend can totally be a dude.
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Dung... Same for the others, but I didn't see a tropes article for them.
**Edit, somehow I got sucked into tv tropes, even though i did the intial linking. Seriously, don't click that if you have to do something.
.*Note I didn't come up with the terms, and the Disinterested Girlfriend can totally be a dude.
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Dung... Same for the others, but I didn't see a tropes article for them.
**Edit, somehow I got sucked into tv tropes, even though i did the intial linking. Seriously, don't click that if you have to do something.
Too late. I'm not happy with you at all, Krusk. Not happy at all.
@merb, I'm glad to hear that. My mother and father in law are that kind of divorced couple and it makes things so much nicer around the holidays and at any family gatherings. It was weird to me that his new wife is my mother in law's best friend, but they sure make it work -- and commiserate nicely.
@ashenshale, the poor rogue in the group -- the character played by the lady who isn't my wife -- gets it from both her boyfriend and the only single person in the group. Luckily, my wife is pretty aware of group dynamics and pointed this out to me, so whenever her turn is up I just try to make eye contact with her and ignore whoever's talking. Then ask her directly. They've largely gotten the hint, though it still crops up in some of the more tense combat encounters. I was likewise surprised that the other couple didn't have any romantic backstory, and I offered to put a rather fetching blond elf NPC in the game for my wife, but she responded, "Look, I'm owning this whole geek thing, but I don't know if I could live with myself if I had a dnd romance."
If you're talking about adding a female player to an existing all-male game.. the only problems I can think that might arise:
(1) if the males are immature
(2) the female makes an unfounded assumption that the males will be immature
(3) the normal problems that adding a player brings to the table..... whether the new player is male or female.
Other than that... don't be silly. Females slightly outnumber males. That's lots of role-playing opportunities, and people are always jonesin' about not having enough players. If you think to exlude them, you are missing out on playing opportunities and your game (and life as well, I submit) will suffer.
I have a generally Martian game, but have a house rule that prevents any Mars-Venus conflicts. It applies to both males and females and works well for us.
RULE: Don't be a ****.
It's only because there are people who are too senstive around this issue. This guy is asking advice on something his girlfriend wanted but he didn't necessaraly agree with
the issue, is that the OP's question makes no sense, a group like "women" is not going to inherently be one way or the other
an individual, like the OP's girlfriend certainly seems like trouble to me, she is the one insisting on being the only woman at the table, she is the one who most sounds like the anecdotal trouble players alluded to by other posters, so the OP has a problem with that one individual, his girlfriend, not women on the whole, and his problem is going to be solved between him and his GF, not by surveying outside opinions
so I guess, the answer to his question from me, "females" are not trouble, individuals are trouble
"DM's girlfriend" is bad news. Everyone else is usually okay.
This is a sterotype that often is true. Meaningthe TVtrope version of the 'DM's girlfriend' not just a girlfriend of the DMs.
"DM's girlfriend" is bad news. Everyone else is usually okay.This is a sterotype that often is true. Meaningthe TVtrope version of the 'DM's girlfriend' not just a girlfriend of the DMs.
pfffft. Here's a solution: the girlfriend is the DM. ;P (That's me)
pfffft. Here's a solution: the girlfriend is the DM. ;P (That's me)
the concept of the "DMs Girlfriend" in this instance can't apply to you. It could apply to your boyfriend assuming you've got one. He very well might be a "DMs Girlfriend".
pfffft. Here's a solution: the girlfriend is the DM. ;P (That's me)the concept of the "DMs Girlfriend" in this instance can't apply to you. It could apply to your boyfriend assuming you've got one. He very well might be a "DMs Girlfriend".
That was a very literal way to take a joke.
How is this conversation still happening?
Through the magic of the Internet...
Through the magic of the internet anything is possible-
men can be women
women can be men
FBI agents can be 16 year old girls.
Yah well wife and gf little different though. Whole different relationship politics hehe.
It was the same before we were married.
I think it's a different people thing, not a "relationships are this way" thing.
Yah well wife and gf little different though. Whole different relationship politics hehe.
And no GF wants her BF to be a doormat - giving in to her every whim.
Ironically, driving into work this morning, a local radio show was talking about this dynamic and the consensus was that women want men to stand up for themselves and what they believe.
Yes, it may hurt her feelings, and the OP may not get any in the near future, but in the long term, if his GF has any intelligence, she will see that she was wrong and apologize. If not, then that GF is probably not the one for the OP.
And no GF wants her BF to be a doormat - giving in to her every whim.
Ding ding ding. We have a winner. No one likes a wimp, and a woman wants to be able to be proud of her man. Goes the other way around too, actually, but with a somewhat different dynamic.
Ironically, driving into work this morning, a local radio show was talking about this dynamic and the consensus was that women want men to stand up for themselves and what they believe.
Guys who don't stand up for themselves and what they believe in might have what's called the Nice Guy Syndrome. The ironic part of Nice Guy-ism is that Nice Guys usually aren't very nice at all, and are usually very unhappy people. But now we're getting into "man lessons," and I'll just leave it at that.
Yes, it may hurt her feelings, and the OP may not get any in the near future, but in the long term, if his GF has any intelligence, she will see that she was wrong and apologize. If not, then that GF is probably not the one for the OP.
Agreed. She shouldn't tell you who you can and can't game with. Just make her welcome to join you or not, as she chooses. The difficult part of it is that nobody likes a wimp ... but yet we don't like it when people oppose us either. That places the OP in a difficult situation but the only real solution in this case is to game with who you want to and let her deal with her hangups on her own time; it's fair and honest, and not superficially "nice."
Ferris Bueller: Cameron has never been in love. At least, nobody's ever been in love with him. If things don't change for him, he's gonna marry the first girl he lays, and she's gonna treat him like **** because she will have given him what he has built up in his mind as the end all be all of human existence. She won't respect him, because you can't respect somebody who kisses your ass. It just doesn't work.
Figured I would bring it up since someone else threw a movie quote out.
And no GF wants her BF to be a doormat - giving in to her every whim.
No, few women want a doormat. However, even fewer people in general enjoy being clunky, time consuming, dying pieces of **** that are obviously the weight around the ankles of the party. No matter the game, that is the most common reason for pandering to females/girlfriends. It's an easy fix to an annoying problem.
I have devoted my entire life to games. Not out of choice. I didn't stand up when I was 19 and go "I want to master of the games!". I have been playing games, puzzles, and crafting XYZ since as far back as I can remember. Whether it was LEGO or Othello or green army men or Pokemon or Risk, my entire life was developed around that into what it is now. Bullshit crafts, Starcraft, D&D, Magic, and more board-games without end. I may never be the best. Hell, I will probably never be even close to the best. However, I'd like to think that I have a firm grasp of everything within this realm that I attempt. Whether male or female, it's easy to see the people who didn't have the same life as I did. Likewise, it's easy to see the people who have had the same life as I did.
As much as some would like to not admit it, there is such a thing as being raised as a "boy" and being raised as a "girl". I was raised as many boys were and grew more inclined to games over sports or being a pseudo-socialite. The closest I know of that most girls got to "gaming" or a gaming lifestyle was anime or living vicariously through a sibling or cousin.
I know plenty of female nerds and gamers who've been that way their whole lives. I know the girl children in my family/extended family and those of most of my friends (not to mention the children of my friends) are all being raised on the same hobbies we enjoy together.
And no GF wants her BF to be a doormat - giving in to her every whim.
No, few women want a doormat. However, even fewer people in general enjoy being clunky, time consuming, dying pieces of **** that are obviously the weight around the ankles of the party. No matter the game, that is the most common reason for pandering to females/girlfriends. It's an easy fix to an annoying problem.
When pandering to a female/GF means completely excluding an entire segment of the gaming population...I don't pander. If the OP's GF said that she did not want [insert minority here] players, we would all know she was a racist and there would be no one on these forum (I hope) that would side with her.
The OP's GF is either the very jealous type (not wanting her BF's attention to stray from her), or she is narcissistic (wanting all the boys to only want to look at her). Either way, she is wrong to demand the exclusion of all female players.
The closest I know of that most girls got to "gaming" or a gaming lifestyle was anime or living vicariously through a sibling or cousin.
Just because you don't know any girls who were in the "gaming lifestyle" doesn't mean they don't exist. I have been playing RPGs since I was in elementary school in the 90's and got into TTRPGS in middle school. And while it is true there are fewer girl gamers, it doesn't help that every male with a **** and pseudo-swagger comes and dismisses/invalidates our gaming experiences.
This thread is chock full of overgeneralizations about what my sex "wants" and as far as I can tell it is mostly men making these baseless statements about our experiences. You don't think there are women out there who want men who are doormats? Over generalization. Women want just as many varied things, emotions, types of partners that any man would like on any spectrum. Women's experiences are not binary or so clear cut, just as any man's exprience is not.
misogyny misogyny misogyny yadda yadda does anyone believe this joke?
Mangoman, mangoman, mangoman there is too much outdated-misogynist BS here for me to pick up. Shrinking violets? I wish there was a good emoticon for me to use for rolling my eyes for this crap. Anecdotal hair dying? i can counter that with my own anecdotes, because my GM's son plays and the first months when I joined his hair was blue/purple/pink. And, what, you've never encountered a male player who plays a sexy vixen?? Cuz i've seen enough straight guys faux-flip their hair while RPing than my drag-queen bard ever has. Oh if my poor little brain could just add up all of these numbers....maybe I can get one of these big strong men next to me at the table to do my math work. ::faint:: Jeeeesus.
Sure, some of us women have been socialized defferently but most of you are totally negating the experiences of women who maybe didnt grow up in dresses and picking flowers or whatever BS you think we're all trained to do. women's experiences vary just as much as men.
There, that is all you need to know. I think it was TheSpaceInvader who said it the best: there is no more/different problems in bringing more women to your gaming table than there is in bringing more men to your table.
(Unless you're the OP, in which -- coming from one woman -- she's just being jealous, and you both should sit down and be honest with your opinions. And don't give her an ultimatum bc they rarely, if ever work and are usually indicative of larger problems)
Just because you don't know any girls who were in the "gaming lifestyle" doesn't mean they don't exist. I have been playing RPGs since I was in elementary school in the 90's and got into TTRPGS in middle school. And while it is true there are fewer girl gamers, it doesn't help that every male with a **** and pseudo-swagger comes and dismisses/invalidates our gaming experiences.
Congratulations.
Contrary to the seeming belief, I did not state that all women are flowery cherubim that wish for nothing but unicorns and souffles. There are exceptions to every rule and I have indeed met a handful. One of them being my best friend. However, what I did say and what I do stand behind is the utter majority were raised as "girls". If you would like me to be even more specific, women raised in Massachussets south of Boston. Another thing that I stand behind is my coming accusation of applying double standards.
Metaphrased, you say we're being misogynistic, overbearing, and doministic. However, I would like to note that you are in a thread developed by males. Posted in a conspicuous place of course, but still developed by males. Would you feel comfortable in allowing us into a female dictated conversation about men? Would we possibly concieve you as being misandric controlling or judgmental? This accusation is without evidence of course, but I believe it just as well as I know the sun will rise in the east.
I do not "hate or dislike women" as the definition may go. However, the simple truth is that women are frequently awful at games just the same as the other clan of boys who became jocks are. There are some places in the hierarchy of feminine turf that oft have the prerequisite of being a flamboyantly gay man. Why should the reverse be any rarer?
jelly, FYI your past two posts are coming off super sexist. I don't think thats your intent, but you should probably be aware if you weren't.Also that last one dabbled in homophobia, so maybe its just best that you avoid topics like this? For your online reputation's sake? (Because thats the most important thing in everyone's life)
*Edit to clarify im am basically a WASP.
Given that this is a discussion about differences in sex, I certainly hope it did come across as something slightly kin to sexist. I'm not going to come into a thread and cow down saying that women are exactly like men in every regard with no differences in the slightest at any level yup, yup they are. Because they're not. Each will always have at least nuances.
Though, simply mentioning gays and a stereotype in the same sentence is not homophobia. It's "being overly sensitive".
*to clarify I'm basically a "flamboyantly straight guy who's still willing to go out on a date with a gay friend to show up his ex".
And no GF wants her BF to be a doormat - giving in to her every whim.
Thats what I tell my GF when I say "No" to something.
She never looks convinced ;)
::Sigh:: I guess you just need a point-by-point takedown to combat your mansplainin'...
Contrary to the seeming belief, I did not state that all women are flowery cherubim that wish for nothing but unicorns and souffles.
You're right. You didn't say that. And I never said you were mysogynistic, instead I said you were misguided in invalidating thousands of women's experiences, and then brushed it off and focused on the majority experience. Don’t be defensive, just listen, try to understand where my feelings are coming from on this, accept that you did state this, evolve and move on.
And guess what though? I was raised in the south, if you would like me to be more specific: Tennessee, south-west Memphis, and uh, honey guess what? We were raised in just as strict, if not stricter, gender roles, but gender socialization as a female does not negate gaming experiences, despite the fact that most games made for girls are gendered pieces of crap. Games + being raised as a girl ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. You can be raised as the most proper girl, doesn't mean you can't learn a damned TTRPG.
Though, speaking for my gender, we all DO love soufflés and unicorns. We had a meeting & voted on it last month.
What I DID say though is this thread was full of misogyny, but let’s wait for the rest of your response because the misogyny from you is bound to rear its ugly head...
One of them being my best friend.
This is like that mythical black person white people always trot out when they need to prove they're not racist, right?
Metaphrased, you say we're being misogynistic, overbearing, and doministic. However, I would like to note that you are in a thread developed by males. Posted in a conspicuous place of course, but still developed by males. Would you feel comfortable in allowing us into a female dictated conversation about men?
So what you’re saying is because this thread was started by men, I should expect nothing better… a thread wholly regarding my gender. So I should not just come white-knighting for my gender in a thread full of men because well, that’s what men do? In a PUBLIC FORUM? For a game that for all intents & purposes, is marketed for all genders? I guess I should be thankful they even let me at the table even though all the men have to explain to me what these numbers mean on these roll-y thingies.
But to answer your silly thought-experiment. No, I would not be offended by men coming in to defend their gender in a post dominated by women talking about men’s experiences. That would be foolish, because who am I to pretend to talk about all men’s experiences?
Would we possibly concieve you as being misandric controlling or judgmental?
Misandry is a straw man. You can’t trot out misandry when you, and all men, have dominated the political culture for centuries, and left us locked out of the process. Please tell me the time when you were systematically disenfranchised for being a man. Please tell me the time you made 6/10ths of the pay a woman doing the same job as you were.
I do not "hate or dislike women" as the definition may go. However, the simple truth is that women are frequently awful at games just the same as the other clan of boys who became jocks are. There are some places in the hierarchy of feminine turf that oft have the prerequisite of being a flamboyantly gay man. Why should the reverse be any rarer?
Oh, and there’s the misogyny for you. I didn’t even have to get my clamps and pull it outta ya!
Or, instead of justifying why you feel you're allowed to insult people and they're not allowed to feel insulted, maybe you could just stop insulting people?
Here, here
Given that this is a discussion about differences in sex, I certainly hope it did come across as something slightly kin to sexist. I'm not going to come into a thread and cow down saying that women are exactly like men in every regard with no differences in the slightest at any level yup, yup they are. Because they're not. Each will always have at least nuances.
Except you are confused with the fact that gender has nothing to do with gaming abilities. Sure their are nuances, but you are conflating those nuances as between the genders, instead of between the individual.
It is a spectrum. For every "shrinking violet" example of a woman there is another example of a strong & determined woman. For every msucle man, there is an example of men who are effeminate, or don't fit into the stereotypical gendered role hoisted on men. S-P-E-C-T-R-U-M.
You can’t trot out misandry when you, and all men, have dominated the political culture for centuries, and left us locked out of the process. Please tell me the time when you were systematically disenfranchised for being a man. Please tell me the time you made 6/10ths of the pay a woman doing the same job as you were.
This is an area that I would like to avoid as it has been done a thousand times, is largely irrelevant to the current discussion, and would end well for no one.
To the point in hand, my position is not one of misogynism. It's more of apathy and realism.
I once played Brawl with a girl when Brawl was actually relevant (joke), and she turned out to be uncommonly good. In fact, she trounced the lot of us. Do you know what happened? We didn't actually care. Nobody cares if you're good because that's ok. However, the reality of it is that I've played more games with more females who are just really bad. And do you know who cares? No one.
Because people are good at games and people are bad at games. I'm not trying to steal your thunder of being a "gamer girl" (with no insult intended with the name and it's connotation). It just doesn't stop many more females from being really bad.
I once played Brawl with a girl when Brawl was actually relevant (joke), and she turned out to be uncommonly good. In fact, she trounced the lot of us. Do you know what happened? We didn't actually care. Nobody cares if you're good because that's ok. However, the reality of it is that I've played more games with more females who are just really bad. And do you know who cares? No one.
Or, instead of being "really bad" (while magically representing the millions of gamers you've never met, somehow), they were just out of practice? Due to being pushed out of games by people like you?
You can’t trot out misandry when you, and all men, have dominated the political culture for centuries, and left us locked out of the process. Please tell me the time when you were systematically disenfranchised for being a man. Please tell me the time you made 6/10ths of the pay a woman doing the same job as you were.
This is an area that I would like to avoid as it has been done a thousand times, is largely irrelevant to the current discussion, and would end well for no one.
To the point in hand, my position is not one of misogynism. It's more of apathy and realism.
I once played Brawl with a girl when Brawl was actually relevant (joke), and she turned out to be uncommonly good. In fact, she trounced the lot of us. Do you know what happened? We didn't actually care. Nobody cares if you're good because that's ok. However, the reality of it is that I've played more games with more females who are just really bad. And do you know who cares? No one.
Because people are good at games and people are bad at games. I'm not trying to steal your thunder of being a "gamer girl" (with no insult intended with the name and it's connotation). It just doesn't stop many more females from being really bad.
You don't seem to understand the difference between anecdote and evidence. Perhaps spend some time one wikipedia or something.
People are strange when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted
Streets are uneven when you're down
- The Doors, "People are Strange"
Seriously, why does this thread even exist?
Why do the WotC mods allow such a blatantly sexist thread to exist on their forum? Seriously, WotC, in what bizarre universe is it considered good business sense to allow people to post stuff on your official website that basically says that 50% of your customer base isn't welcome?
How about next we have some threads on whether black people can play D&D, or maybe one about whether Jews can be good gamers. I'm sure some DM's out there also want to talk about the don't ask, don't tell policy at their table, so maybe we can talk about that.
And people wonder why the tabletop RPG scene is such a sausagefest. Facepalm.
WotC [...] good business sense
Lol.
Although I like your ideas. Let's see how long we can keep this up, folks!
It's quite a touchy subject to talk about the differences between men and women in almost anything... I've played with many different people and you do see certain trends, though. The one I've noticed the most in my neck of the woods is the whiny male player ("I rolled another 1!", "Who designed this encounter!?") and his coddling girlfriend/mom figure ("It's ok honey", "Please don't make a scene").
The only thing worse is when you have a table full of men and you call a woman out on something she's doing that is (bothering someone, interfering with the game, whatever) and the men come down on you like a ten-ton hammer for daring to question the female, because she's the female and they want to "ride to her rescue" or something out of a misplaced sense of chivalry, or, once again, just trying to impress the girl. The girl doesn't need your help and don't think she doesn't realize that you're trying to impress her. Now, if you actually think (me or whoever) is wrong for calling her out for (insert offense here), that's okay, that's different.
So bottom line for me, the only problems that women create at the table in my experience aren't really created by the women at all, it's the reaction to them by all the beta males that's the problem. But that of course doesn't mean that I don't game with women - it's not their fault that some men feel they have to put on a show for them.
The solution is really simple. Just enjoy the game. If you really want to impress someone at the table, do it by doing your best to make the game more fun for them. Save the S.C.U.M. behavior for outside the game, if you think that'll work.
I'm going to lock this thread and some content is going to be removed from it because this is a disruptive topic.
Monica