I've looked through my PHB and I cannot find anything saying that all powers have visible effects. My DM is normally a rules/mechanics-focused guy so I'm hoping that if I can point out that the rules don't say the effect must be visible that I can convince my DM to relax on the visible colored psionic effects thing. I've been developing a concept for an Ardent that I really like but I refuse to shoot rainbows out of my ass when I think it should be sufficient that the target knows his mind is being attacked by an outside force (otherwise what's he will-defending against?).
And hopefully I won't find out that my current Swordmage has been walking around with a 24x7 glowing force field because I'd probably crumple up his character sheet ASAP.
i'd require a psionic class to have visible effect if the power states psionic in the keyword, but i'd let them describe what the visible effect is for themselves. they could call a thunder effect as a visible wave of disturbance that is similar to heat waves coming off a hot sidewalk; visible, but not colored and blaringly obvious.
if you don't want rainbows and pink bolts and halos of light, fine, but don't tell us. tell your DM and talk over how to fulfill the actual mechanical rules and the rules of his table in a manner that satisfies both of you.
ultimately, the written material might not be all that binding in the case of visible effects from psionic powers.
Versus Will, I'd say it's not visible: what you're doing is touching its mind with your own and (censored) it.
Versus Fortitude or AC, I'd say visibility would be determined by what the attack actually does. If it's something like telekinetically crushing them to a pulp, I wouldn't require a manifestation myself. If it's doing something like setting them on fire with your mind, then yeah, I would advice the attack causes them to burst into flames or start gushing smoke as their organs charbroil inside them or become encased in a cloud of steam as their molecules are heating to boiling point.
Versus Reflex, the attack should definately have a visual manifestation. The whole point of failing to hit with such a power is that the target saw/sensed it coming and dodged it, so there has to be something they can see/hear/feel in order to dodge it.
It doesn't have anything to do with stealth. I totally agree the target knows they were attacked (otherwise why are they mustering all their willpower to resist nothing?) and that they could even know the assault of foreign emotions or thoughts came from the guy rubbing the shiney orb or the dude that just hit him with an axe. I just think psionic powers manifesting as colored effects or silly halos is utterly ridiculous and refuse to play a psionic character when that's the rule. I'm trying to find a point to raise with my DM that will hopefully convince him not to force the silly colored effects on me. He actually made the statement that all effects are visible during somebody else's game so I believe he's basing his opinion on something that either is in a rule book or that he thinks is in one. If there IS something that says it must be this way then fine I'll just not play psionics but otherwise I'd like to try and persuade my DM to change his mind.
If its about mechanics, as you have stated, those are clear. Since it just sounds like an issue of flavor and imagery, then that should be completely mutable. The only reason I could see a DM worrying about such a question as,"Are psionics visible" is that an immediate red flag comes up as predicted abuses are immediately envisioned. But just for effect, it shouldn't even be an issue. My 2 Cents.
If its about mechanics, as you have stated, those are clear. Since it just sounds like an issue of flavor and imagery, then that should be completely mutable. The only reason I could see a DM worrying about such a question as,"Are psionics visible" is that an immediate red flag comes up as predicted abuses are immediately envisioned. But just for effect, it shouldn't even be an issue. My 2 Cents.
It had nothing to do with mechanics. Just flavor. I did discuss it with my DM and his rule is everything has some sort of visible effect so that everyone rather than just the target knows something happened. I'm going to think about it and if I can come up with something subtle enough for me and visible enough for him I may still play my Ardent. I'm hoping the brief go'auld eye glow will be sufficient.
It mucks with my background a lot since part of his backstory involved growing up in a village the bastard child of an elf adventurer. The townsfolk and other children didn't treat him well and then when his power began to manifest his own distrust and dislike of the other villagers made things worse because his power projected his feelings into them. If he had a halo when it happened then it's hard to say it took over a year to figure out what was going on.
It mucks with my background a lot since part of his backstory involved growing up in a village the bastard child of an elf adventurer. The townsfolk and other children didn't treat him well and then when his power began to manifest his own distrust and dislike of the other villagers made things worse because his power projected his feelings into them. If he had a halo when it happened then it's hard to say it took over a year to figure out what was going on.
well, you could say that during youth, when the powers were very weak and he wasn't making an effort to augment that there was nothing visible about it. Then, after much time, as he began to realize his psionic prodigy power, he was able to start augmenting and as he grew to strengthen, discipline, and refine the impact of his psionic abilities that the visible effects became sufficiently pronounced as to be noticeable.
If its about mechanics, as you have stated, those are clear. Since it just sounds like an issue of flavor and imagery, then that should be completely mutable. The only reason I could see a DM worrying about such a question as,"Are psionics visible" is that an immediate red flag comes up as predicted abuses are immediately envisioned. But just for effect, it shouldn't even be an issue. My 2 Cents.
It had nothing to do with mechanics. Just flavor. I did discuss it with my DM and his rule is everything has some sort of visible effect so that everyone rather than just the target knows something happened. I'm going to think about it and if I can come up with something subtle enough for me and visible enough for him I may still play my Ardent. I'm hoping the brief go'auld eye glow will be sufficient.
It mucks with my background a lot since part of his backstory involved growing up in a village the bastard child of an elf adventurer. The townsfolk and other children didn't treat him well and then when his power began to manifest his own distrust and dislike of the other villagers made things worse because his power projected his feelings into them. If he had a halo when it happened then it's hard to say it took over a year to figure out what was going on.
That sounds like a mechanical reason for me. Say your party needs to assassinate someone, you go to a crowded banquet, cue the psion just simply killing the target with his mind, leaving no evidence that links to the party. The pc's get captured by a band of orcs, the psion starts mind crushing everything and convinces the orcs its angry spirits. Diplomacy starts going bad, psion does mind things and convinces everyone there's an assassin trying to kill whoever they're being diplomatic with. Its things like that he's probably concerned about with the only real solution in his mind being everything has visible effects.
In any case, it sounds like your DM is establishing this to avoid having you get an unbalanced capability for stealth in exercising your powers. Roll with it and come up with some fun dramatic flavor.
T
One of the things I like about the 4e system is that everybody operates under the same rules. In general, powers are visible (or at least percievable, as the thomas.j.theobald says); however, the special effects look like what you want them to.
I never said I was trying to operate under different rules. The target always knows what effects are being put on it. Its a perfectly reasonable rule. It doesn't require a visual effect. My DM is changing that and extending it to everyone knows an attack is happening so that requires a visual effect. Oh well that's his rule and I have to deal with it.
It had nothing to do with mechanics. Just flavor.
That sounds like a mechanical reason for me.
I was referring to my reasons which were just for my character's style. I'm not going to try and say that my stuff is any more stealthy than the rules say. They say the target always knows they're being attacked and what's affecting them. That can be accomplished without shooting lasers from my eyes or having a halo around my head.
Say your party needs to assassinate someone, you go to a crowded banquet, cue the psion just simply killing the target with his mind, leaving no evidence that links to the party.
Sure, if the targets are minions. If minions die then they're working as intended. Otherwise the target survives the first attack and shouts "Hey that guy there is attacking my mind!" He knows because he just used used all his will to shake off your mental assault.
The pc's get captured by a band of orcs, the psion starts mind crushing everything and convinces the orcs its angry spirits.
If they're minions dying right away then that's just plain clever if he passes his bluff check vs the others. Of course the first time he misses then the target just says "OMG that guy is attacking my mind!" If they aren't minions and don't get killed in one shot then they just say "Hey stab that guy he's attacking me."
Diplomacy starts going bad, psion does mind things and convinces everyone there's an assassin trying to kill whoever they're being diplomatic with.
It's the minion vs non-minion thing again. Minions die. Ok. A minion shouldn't cause that much trouble anyway. If he passes his bluff check to convince people there's an invisible assassin killing the minions then that's clever and dependent on him hitting all the minions the first time and making a bluff check. Plenty of opportunities to fail. Plus if the skill challenge was well designed then they suffer what ever the complications is for failing is and possibly more because they failed it by killing people. Non-minions survive and know what you did.
Perhaps visible is the wrong word, and 'perceptible' would be more appropriate. Just because someone is psionically inactive doesn't mean that a flood of power passing by doesn't make their brain itch in a characteristic fashion that points back to you, like dopplered sound waves. Or perhaps your powers appear like whatsername in "Firestarter."
In any case, it sounds like your DM is establishing this to avoid having you get an unbalanced capability for stealth in exercising your powers. Roll with it and come up with some fun dramatic flavor.
T
It's a ways off before the end of this adventure but I'm considering it. By then my swordmage may be too awesome to switch out, but the party could use a "Face" and a half-elf euphoric ardent can certainly fill that role, not to mention make everyone near him effectively trained in diplomacy themselves.
Perhaps visible is the wrong word, and 'perceptible' would be more appropriate. Just because someone is psionically inactive doesn't mean that a flood of power passing by doesn't make their brain itch in a characteristic fashion that points back to you, like dopplered sound waves. Or perhaps your powers appear like whatsername in "Firestarter."
In any case, it sounds like your DM is establishing this to avoid having you get an unbalanced capability for stealth in exercising your powers. Roll with it and come up with some fun dramatic flavor.
T
This post sums up the answer I like to go with. Monsters, and PCs, know what effects an attack causes. How ever you and your DM describe this is fine; you just have work it out.
It sounds like your problem is a difference of opinion with your DM. It sounds like the DM is afraid you'll abuse the fluff for mechanical effect if there is no 'perceptible' (visible) effect.
I would explain it to him like this: say your party does have to assassinate someone. Would it be fair for the Rouge or Ranger to hide, and shoot an arrow if your Psionic character couldn't hide and attack too. The balance comes in when the target is hit. The target, and other observers, might see the arrow/dagger, and therefore it is only fair that they have the same chance to notice that the target had been affected by a psionic, or magic, or primal, or shadow attack. Now you might have to argue that there are stealthy ways to hide martial attacks, and that you should at least have a chance to hide your psionic attacks too.
I personally side with you, the player, here. The DM has a story he wants to tell with this DnD game; you want to shape that story with an interesting hero, and you should be allowed to add the great flavor & background you've worked on to that story. I hope you work it out.
It had nothing to do with mechanics. Just flavor.
That sounds like a mechanical reason for me.
I was referring to my reasons which were just for my character's style. I'm not going to try and say that my stuff is any more stealthy than the rules say. They say the target always knows they're being attacked and what's affecting them. That can be accomplished without shooting lasers from my eyes or having a halo around my head.Say your party needs to assassinate someone, you go to a crowded banquet, cue the psion just simply killing the target with his mind, leaving no evidence that links to the party.
Sure, if the targets are minions. If minions die then they're working as intended. Otherwise the target survives the first attack and shouts "Hey that guy there is attacking my mind!" He knows because he just used used all his will to shake off your mental assault.The pc's get captured by a band of orcs, the psion starts mind crushing everything and convinces the orcs its angry spirits.
If they're minions dying right away then that's just plain clever if he passes his bluff check vs the others. Of course the first time he misses then the target just says "OMG that guy is attacking my mind!" If they aren't minions and don't get killed in one shot then they just say "Hey stab that guy he's attacking me."Diplomacy starts going bad, psion does mind things and convinces everyone there's an assassin trying to kill whoever they're being diplomatic with.
It's the minion vs non-minion thing again. Minions die. Ok. A minion shouldn't cause that much trouble anyway. If he passes his bluff check to convince people there's an invisible assassin killing the minions then that's clever and dependent on him hitting all the minions the first time and making a bluff check. Plenty of opportunities to fail. Plus if the skill challenge was well designed then they suffer what ever the complications is for failing is and possibly more because they failed it by killing people. Non-minions survive and know what you did.
You....sorta missed my point there, I agree 100% with you, I'm trying to point out the way the dm is thinking in that the person wouldn't know the source of the attack, the person wouldn't be able to say that specific guy is attacking my mind, etc. To put it more bluntly, it seems like you and your dm have two seperate ideas of how psionic powers work...you're treating them like after a mental attack the person is able to determine who was using the mental powers...which is the correct way to do things. Unfortunately, your dm is thinking the opposite, that the npcs wouldn't be able to detect specifically who was attacking them, hence his concern and desire to make it "visible" Assuring him that you can percieve the power/who used it should get rid of his concerns. I wouldn't be surprised if he played in a 3.x game where someone tried to abuse a Psions power like this...I'm basing my examples above previous situations I've heard from other dms who had "trouble psions" who would basically try to argue that because all they have to do is essentially think, their targets wouldn't be aware of who was trying to attack them.
Here are a few ways that you can flavor the effects of a psionic power.