I've got a multi-classed elf character with a major bloodline at 3. At total, I'm lv 20. I've got 17 regular class levels, and three bloodline levels (which still count as class levels, not adjustments). What should I have for stat bonuses and feats? I say I should have 5 stats and seven feats. He said that I only get feats and stats bonuses at HD intervals so therefore I only have 4 stats and six feats because I'm only 17 HD. Where does it say that?
From the books:
Feats - Every characters gains one feat at 1st level and another at every level divisible by three.
Ability Score Increases - Upon attaining any level divisible by four, a character increase one his or her ability scores by 1 point. The players chooses which ability score to improve.
Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits. A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks.
So my question is, who's right? Why?
Okay...your DM is right because he's the DM. You've presented evidence, you've told him how you think it works, and he has told you that he believes otherwise. Presumably, you did this outside of game (such as pre-game).
Either way, though, it's your DMs call. You're 20th level, you're nearing the end of your character' career. It's one feat, 3 HD, and one stat bump. Get over it.
And I should be allowed to at least challenge the DM on rules. How else would anybody learn?
A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.
Taken from this link::: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#bloodlineLevels
This is the SRD on the bloodline levels. You do not gain BAB, Saves, HP, Skills or class features but it does count as a Normal Class Level. Which means that you qualify for a feat and a stat increase.
Yes you can challenge your DM as I always welcome my players to challenge me. I am wrong on rules from time to time and the players keep me on my toes.
However, he can be the dick DM and just say it's that way cuz he's the DM.
First and foremost: Stop arguing with your DM.
Okay...your DM is right because he's the DM. ...
While I can agree with the "stop arguing" sentiment (discussion is much better), the "DM is right because he's the DM" line is, frankly, one of the biggest loads of bullcrap that gets perpetuated on message boards.
DMs are absolutely free to implement any house rule they'd like. But this isn't in that territory (yet). If your DM says a third level fighter has a +5 BAB, he's wrong. This is the same sort of situation.
I'm not near my books to look up bloodlines at the moment (and my employer blocks d20srd.org, where the rules are posted on-line). If you don't have a solid answer by later tonight, I'll try to remember to look it up and give you my interpretation.
edit: Assuming Valis quoted the entire rule, I agree with his interpretation. And, I have no reason to believe he didn't quote the whole thing
You may absolutely ask the DM about rules, however, you may not argue or challenge if it's going to waste the time of the rest of the players in the group. (I dunno about you, but sitting around watch somebody try to squeeze a small advantage out of a DM for half the night does NOT count as a good time.)
Now, per the DND online games:
Bloodlines
Details on bloodlines may be found at: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm
The following bloodlines may be taken:
Celestial[good], Demon[evil, chaotic], Devil[evil, lawful], Dragon(any)[magic], Elven(high), Giant(any), Hag[evil], Lycanthrope, Ogre, Slaad[chaotic], Troll;
Bloodline levels are treated as an ECL, they do not give BAB, saves, skills or contribute towards bonus feats or stat increases.
(Link: http://www.dndonlinegames.com/showthread.php?t=28368 )
Your DM is correct.
You don't gain class levels when you invest in bloodline levels. The rule is itself an alternative to having a level adjustment. Instead of getting a level adjustment at the beginning, its spread out along 20 levels.
So as the rule says you do not have 20 character levels, you have 17, thus your DM is correct.
edit: actually, I have heard of them, assuming it's the play-by-post site (my employer blocks it, so I can't look at it). That still doesn't mean the site's house rules are official rulings.
If you really can't come to an agreement on this come up with a new character that doesn't have that problem. If he starts messing with the new character you might have a problem.
Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits
Emphasis mine. Feats and ability increases depend on character level. Bloodlines do not increase character level. Thus, no feats and ability bumps for you.
And, Zherog, I agree with what you said, but I feel you misread my point. It wasn't a blatant change in the mechanics, it was a judgment call based on available evidence, which is subject to change upon further review of said evidence.
The OP presented his question/issue to the DM, shared his evidence, and stated what he believed the answer to be. The DM disagreed. The DM is the rules arbitrator, therefore, his decision overrules the player's idea.
The bottom line is, if you're unhappy with the DMs decision, you can either present further evidence, ask for a way to work around it (potentially retconning the "bloodline" out of your character, if it's that big of a deal), or just accept his ruling. However, any such discussion on the matter should not take place at the table, it should take place in a more "open air" environment, where the two of you can hash things out a bit more methodically, unless the DM feels the other players may have useful input.
The bottom line is, if you're unhappy with the DMs decision, you can either present further evidence...
I think this is what the OP was asking for. No harm in seeking second (or third or fourth...) opinions.
I think this is what the OP was asking for. No harm in seeking second (or third or fourth...) opinions.
Very true. However, I'm going to have to say my own opinion is that the bloodlines levels grant exactly what benefits are listed, and no others.
I suspect the OP didn't realize what posting "arguing with the DM" as the title to his thread was going to hit so many buttons. My knee-jerk reaction to any player who takes things from a discussion to an argument is to politely show them the door.
By "arguing", I meant that my previous DM and I both read the rules and interpreted it one way, which is why my character didn't have ECL levels in bloodline, but class levels, and this DM says that we're both wrong. Well, it's technically 2-1, so I'm looking for someone to show that one of us was wrong. Now I have no problem being told I'm wrong so long as I see the evidence that goes with it. I'll look at it, nod, shrug my shoulders, and move on with my life. It's just that simple. What got me though was the whole "you only get feats and stats at HD intervals." See, I don't get that. If he'd showed me what Rainkiss did, this wouldn't have been a problem. But at the same time, Valis, has voted in my favour.
This is where it gets confusing. Everyone has their own interpretations of the rules.
Lastly, we haven't argued "in game" (yet). We've just been doing this via e-mail since he wants to have a second copy of my character for himself in case something happens.
A bloodline is a level adjustment, just spread out over 20 levels.
So you have feats and stats equal to a 17th level character.
A quote from the bloodline description-
Quote:
Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does...
This means that you would have taken your Bloodline levels, AKA Level adjustments at 3rd, 6th, and 12th level if you have a Major bloodline.
Yes, your ECL is 20, but your character level, as in what you gained from pure classes is 17, and class levels and hit dice are what coincide with bonus ability scores and feats.
Problem solved.
The D&D Online rules aren't quite accurate (they aren't just ECL) but the significant sentence from d20srd is the following:
Emphasis mine. Feats and ability increases depend on character level. Bloodlines do not increase character level. Thus, no feats and ability bumps for you.
This is not correct. Eldritch_Lord has taken a phrase out of context. One needs to review ALL of the information on bloodlines to get a feel for how they work. I prefer this writeup. Some relevant bits:
A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.
Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.
If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.
For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer with a major bloodline takes a bloodline level when earns enough XP to advance in level. He is treated as a 3rd-level spellcaster for the purpose of spell durations, caster level checks, and so forth. But he doesn't gain a 3rd-level sorcerer's spells per day or spells known.
Similarly, the stunning attacks of a 3rd-level monk with one bloodline level have a save DC equal to 12 (10 + one-half class level) plus her Wisdom modifier, since the bloodline level is treated as if it were a monk class level when calculating the save DC. A 3rd-level monk/3rd-level sorcerer with two bloodline levels would be treated as a 5th-level spellcaster and a 5th-level monk for determining level-based abilities.
Translation:
Bloodline levels increase your ECL for purposes of feats, ability score increases, and level-based calculations (like caster level), but are otherwise "empty" of additional benefits as noted above.
Translation:
Your DM's understanding of bloodlines is incomplete and he is not applying the rules correctly.
This is not correct. Eldritch_Lord has taken a phrase out of context. One needs to review ALL of the information on bloodlines to get a feel for how they work. I prefer this writeup. Some relevant bits:
Translation:
Bloodline levels increase your ECL for purposes of feats, ability score increases, and level-based calculations (like caster level), but are otherwise "empty" of additional benefits as noted above.
Translation:
Your DM's understanding of bloodlines is incomplete and he is not applying the rules correctly.
I see nothing out of the above passage that clearly states Bloodlines count as ECL.
"It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks" - This statement is exclusive.
"Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). " - This passage is clearly referring to character abilities that scale based on levels.
As I stated earlier, Bloodlines are an alternative method of level adjustment. Allowing feats and ability scores to continue to be accrued defeats that purpose.
This is not correct. Eldritch_Lord has taken a phrase out of context. One needs to review ALL of the information on bloodlines to get a feel for how they work. I prefer this writeup.
I quoted the same source you did, actually.
Bloodline levels increase your ECL for purposes of feats, ability score increases, and level-based calculations (like caster level), but are otherwise "empty" of additional benefits as noted above.
Translation:
Your DM's understanding of bloodlines is incomplete and he is not applying the rules correctly.
Au contraire.
Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level
To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.
Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.
Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills.
If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature, it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character. If a monster has 2 or more Hit Dice, it can start with no class levels (though it can gain them later).
Even if the creature is of a kind that normally advances by Hit Dice rather than class levels a PC can gain class levels rather than Hit Dice.
Hit Dice
The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do.
Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases
A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.
Emphasis mine. Character levels and/or hit dice determine feats and ability bumps. ECL does not.
Problem solved.
Except that folks are going to argue this one until there's an official ruling. ;)