I wanna collect some opinions here. If you are a DM too. Answer this other thread as well:
As a DM, What's your opinion?
DM, the guy who is the absolute ruler (zero).
He say what goes and what not. What happens and what not.
This power in his hands shall be always used for the fun of the group as a whole.
With this is mind...
How do you feel about your DM creating a character/power/spell without the rules?
Making it as he wants it to be. Custom spells,equipment,etc, for his monsters and NPCs.
A)Do you feel it's necessary? It's great if used correclty? Don't needed? Frustate the players?
C) If it was/has been done to customize your loved PC? Would/Did you like it?
B)What experiences have you been through with things like this? Was enjoyable? Distateful?
Thanks for reading and feel free to throw your opinions!
Now, if your group was say, level 16, and the DM threw in some little tokens that did random level 0-2 spell effects will nilly for comedic effect, that really wouldn't break the game.
C?. Again, it depends. Generally, I hate custom-curses, but won't say no to a customized buff. I'm selfish that way.
B. My DM likes to make up monsters with unique powers. There's been a fair mix of encounters that were challenging in a fun way, challenging in an annoying way, or simply interesting for other reasons. Like that enemy who you couldn't tell the exact location of at any time, even with a True Seeing spell, unless you looked very hard for flaws in the complex illusion spells he created...
However- I would disagree with the DM giving his NPC's uber items that de-ubere'd when we killed the guys and took them. That just screams of cheese.
The *rare* baddie having a weapon that only works for them would probably be alright but not if it started happening alot. (there's a reason monsters have natural weapons.. its because PC's can't use them no matter how powerful they are.. same with spell-like abilities ;p)
With that constraint- as long as the Actions of the NPC/Monsters use the same rules as the rest of us then i generally don't have a problem with it.
This is a "general rule" rather than a "specific rule".
Some critters may slightly twist a r ule one way and another might twist it another, but generally they follow the same rules.
Custom spells is a little different. A custom spell needs to follow the guidelines for the spell level it's attached to as well as wiether or not it's divine or arcane. if an NPC goes around casting level 1 spells doing 100 damage then something is up- even if we never have access to it.
I have no problem with the spell being created but it needs to correspond at least roughly with the guidelines that exist.
I know it sounds like i'm wishy washy.. "yes he can, but no he can't" but I see it more of a balance idea. If the PC's are constantly put up against things they can in no way compete with or duplicate (zomg ALL the npc fighters have 9-20x4 weapons that disintegrate when we disarm or kill the npc!") then clearly something has gone awry.
It's the overall scene that the DM needs to watch. Most of the time the monsters actions should fall in line with what the PC's can do. Most of the time the spells/items the NPC's have fall in line with what the PC's have.
The game world has rules that should usually be followed-
but the DM should be free to occasionally bend the rules in order to craft a more interesting/dangerous encounter.
"what if to customize my PC"
If all PC's were getting customized (either all at once, or one by one over the course of an adventure or campaign) then I wouldn't much mind.
if One pc (myself or someone else) was suddenly given the IWIN button then it starts to suck hard: both for the PC and the suddenly-created sidekicks.
"to frustrate the players"
in what sense? If by frustrate you mean "dang it we can't win!" then the DM has *failed*.
If you mean "Doh, he got away! We need to try harder!"
or "dang it ima trip monkey and that monster has 32000 legs!"
or "that thing sure is harder to hit with spells than his comrades were!"
or AC or whatever, then the DM is doing well. "frustrating" in the sense of more difficult isn't bad.
"frustrating" in the sense of Impossible- is bad. And should be avoided by DM's.
Hope this answered your question(s)
How do you feel about your DM creating a character/power/spell without the rules?
Define "without the rules." As a GM, I create custom spells/feats/monsters/races/classes all the time. I describe their stats using the rules, but as far as I know, there's no "official monster chassis," for example, that all d20 monster must adhere to. In this context, I think its' not only fine, but good and admirable.
If you mean the GM just makes spells/monsters/whatever on the fly and spontaneously lets them do what he needs them to do...I think that's kind of lame, but a skilled GM could pull it off. I wouldn't want to try it, and I'd be suspicious of it, but I wouldn't automatically hate it.
Making it as he wants it to be. Custom spells,equipment,etc, for his monsters and NPCs.
A big
I do this often. I also make custom spells/feats/equipment for the PCs to play with.A)Do you feel it's necessary?
No.
It's great if used correclty?
Enthusiastic yes.
Don't needed?
Rarely needed. Sometimes useful.
Frustate the players?
If done poorly or unevenly (i.e., NPCs have cool spells and gear the PCs never get), then yes. Done with a sense of fairness, no.
C) If it was/has been done to customize your loved PC?
I played a wizard once and the GM let me use various custom spells.
Would/Did you like it?
Yes.
B)What experiences have you been through with things like this? Was enjoyable? Distateful?
Generally good. The people I game with aren't idiots or power-freaks, so they don't simply screw over the PCs and laugh. With rare exceptions, if an NPC has it [feat, spell, whatever], a PC can, theoretically acquire it.
How do you feel about your DM creating a character/power/spell without the rules?
What do you mean, "without the rules"?
A)Do you feel it's necessary? It's great if used correclty? Don't needed? Frustate the players?
Well, even with the best intentions, it can be dangerous. I've often seen houserules by people who don't really understand the game that look good on the surface, but cause no end of problems. I often run potential changes by several or all of my players, both for extra input and also to see if they'd like it. I don't want to implement some possibly broken house-rule that my players don't like.
C) If it was/has been done to customize your loved PC? Would/Did you like it?
Yes and no. If it furthers the character concpet, I like it. If it's some wierd ability the DM thinks is cool, then not so much.
B)What experiences have you been through with things like this? Was enjoyable? Distateful?
Pertaining to C above, I had a rogue (thief actually) in 2nd edition that somehow got some powerful metal arms that drastically increased his Str and gave some other abilities. It certainly made me more powerful, but it wasn't what I was looking for in a rogue.
DM, the guy who is the absolute ruler (zero).
He say what goes and what not. What happens and what not.
Well, duh, its my job. Blunt statement, but yeah, its what i do.
This power in his hands shall be always used for the fun of the group as a whole.
Of course! Otherwise i wouldnt be DM or Playing.
How do you feel about your DM creating a character/power/spell without the rules?
I tend to be a "judge", to help the DM balance it.. but if X rule applies to NPCs, it should be for PCs too.
Custom stuff is always welcome, and often helps to make unexpected things happen. Of course, being smart and fair about it is key. I do this often when i DM.
Making it as he wants it to be. Custom spells,equipment,etc, for his monsters and NPCs.
Then PCs kills them, and have the loot. Fun times follows. Again, i don this often and my players usually like those things; they are kept as throphies.
A)Do you feel it's necessary? It's great if used correclty? Don't needed? Frustate the players?
Depends, but i like it, if it adds to the fun then yes. / YES! / see anwer #1 / Not if used fairly.
C) If it was/has been done to customize your loved PC? Would/Did you like it?
B)What experiences have you been through with things like this? Was enjoyable? Distateful?
I liked it very much; custom tools or similar are always welcome. / most enjoyable, never ended up in a game where such custom items were broken to the point it ruined the fun.
If everyone is having fun and playing the game they want to play, Yes. If it spoils the fun and changes the game so the players & DM do not like it, No.
As a player i'm all up for customizing my PCs.
Trade this feat for something a DM agrees, Make a custom spell etc.
I like when a DM does it to his own NPC, but only it makes some sense...
In last month our DM sent a gnome to battle against our 7th level party.
The gnome had AC over 30, HP over 1000, cast a spell and full-attacked every round, and when dying exploded doing 80 damage (no save) against all in the battle room we were.
Things like this really **** me off
WTF?? My wizard had only 40 hp! He died outright!
Thing like that gnome doesn't make sense...And make customizig looks a bad deal.
I like to play without metagaming, that's why i like the custom stuff.
The other players in the group metagame SO MUCH that suc*s most of the time.
In last month our DM sent a gnome to battle against our 7th level party.
The gnome had AC over 30, HP over 1000, cast a spell and full-attacked every round, and when dying exploded doing 80 damage (no save) against all in the battle room we were.
That's not "custom"...that's straight-up crap. Sounds like a case of PowerMadGMitis.
But why a gnome, one wonders?...
The most fun I've had is when DMs break or bend the rules in order to provide a forceful storytelling. So, when a Paladin in the party has been ignoring fear effects for the first five levels, and then one day there is actually something that makes the Paladin afraid, it has a force and immediacy to it. Now, there's a trick to this. It wouldn't have the same force and effect that it would if the Paladin had not run into fear before, from Supernatural or Extraordinary abilities.
Moreover, it'd sound silly if the DM describes it as
"your fear immunity seems to fail, roll your will save"
instead of
"The sight of the horror grips you. You feel as though something is wrong, like you've put your weight on the wrong foot, or you're holding your sword in the wrong hand. Whatever it is, it's like an itch that you've never felt before, and can't begin to know how to scratch it. Roll your will save." Breaking the rules can have force if done correctly.
On the flip side of the coin, rule-bending or breaking can be from a railroading, rule-zeroing control freak. Having your abilities arbitrarily fail, or backfire is frustrating to no end.
I guess the point is this, it's a gamble. It can turn out really well, or it can turn out really poorly. It can be a sign of real ingenuity and storytelling bravado, or it can be a sign of inflexibility and banality.
Hey boardmates.
I wanna collect some opinions here. If you are a DM too. Answer this other thread as well:
As a DM, What's your opinion?
DM, the guy who is the absolute ruler (zero).
He say what goes and what not. What happens and what not.
This power in his hands shall be always used for the fun of the group as a whole.
With this is mind...
How do you feel about your DM creating a character/power/spell without the rules?
Making it as he wants it to be. Custom spells,equipment,etc, for his monsters and NPCs.
A)Do you feel it's necessary? It's great if used correclty? Don't needed? Frustate the players?
C) If it was/has been done to customize your loved PC? Would/Did you like it?
B)What experiences have you been through with things like this? Was enjoyable? Distateful?
Thanks for reading and feel free to throw your opinions!
My DM does this regularly for our game. I like sharing some snippets of our game, but it is difficult because there are things in the game that's so much beyond RAW, you'd need the context to understand or is meaningless if the thread conversation is by nature RAW restricted. When I can discuss things, such as my fun playing a crusader, I try to limit it to RAW stuff if rules are needed in the conversation but otherwise it's fluff.
That said, as long as the players' characters also get "beyond RAW" stuff, so beyond RAW "House Rules" or "Rule 0" is not a strong enough definition, I'm ok with it. In our game, all the PCs have beyond RAW stuff. Because it is beyond RAW it doesn't always work as intended. The rules on how the beyond RAW stuff works has changed over the course of the game. It has to happen because the actual beyond RAW stuff has never been done before, but when I allocate feats and/or skill points to accomodate the given rules then the rules change such that the feats and/or skill points become a waste and/or other beyond RAW stuff that was good and I still have are now obsolete, it can get annoying and I feel my character is inefficient. He's still a crusader, can do his crusader stuff, and has his beyond RAW stuff, but as a personal quirk, even for straight RAW characters, if I don't use all I can do, I feel inefficient. For example, if I play a cleric but undead only come up once in a blue moon, my Turn Undead is wasted. I can take a Divine Feat, but I feel a little resentment I "have" to and when undead do show up, I'm annoyed that means I can't use my Divine Feat so now I have a "wasted" feat slot. It's not really wasted. I can use the feat in non-undead encounters, but the exclusive or of use between regular turning and the divine feat is more pronounced.
Anyway, if player characters don't get the beyond RAW stuff such that only NPCs get them, bad guys or not, then the DM is a jerk who hates his players and gets his jollies lauding over the power he has. If all the PCs are Good such that they'd never could become Assassins or Ur-Priests or even want to but there exists NPC bad guys who are an Assassin and Ur-Priest, that's ok. I have the perspective that there will exist things NPCs get that player characters don't. However, that's not a beyond RAW thing. It's when the DM denies a player from making a DMM Persistent Spell cleric yet that's what a villain cleric is that's the big no-no.
Thanks for the replys ;)
As a player i'm all up for customizing my PCs.
Trade this feat for something a DM agrees, Make a custom spell etc.
I like when a DM does it to his own NPC, but only it makes some sense...
In last month our DM sent a gnome to battle against our 7th level party.
The gnome had AC over 30, HP over 1000, cast a spell and full-attacked every round, and when dying exploded doing 80 damage (no save) against all in the battle room we were.
Things like this really **** me off
WTF?? My wizard had only 40 hp! He died outright!
Thing like that gnome doesn't make sense...And make customizig looks a bad deal.
I like to play without metagaming, that's why i like the custom stuff.
The other players in the group metagame SO MUCH that suc*s most of the time.
He obviously intended to kill you and any other characters with 80 hps or less. Personally, I'm not sure I would play with a DM who used this kind of cheese.
When I mean customizing things I don't mean UNBALANCING them.