Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bone_yard Jun 30, 2008 13:13:42	Okay I just picked up my players handbook for 4th edition. I'm confused has a base attack been done away with because I wanna know what bonus my ranger gets. there seems to be a spot for class bonus but i'm not sure where it is. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
#2 eldritch_lord Jun 30, 2008 13:37:03	There's no more BAB. You do get +1/2 level to attack--is that what you're thinking of?
#3 tipop Jun 30, 2008 16:06:00	Your attack bonus is: Attribute bonus + 1/2 level + Proficiency bonus + Other bonuses Attribute can be strength, dexterity, or whatever the attack you're using calls for. Proficiency bonus takes the place of "non-proficiency penalty" in earlier editions. In other words, you can pick up any weapon and use it with no penalty, but you won't get the +2 or +3 bonus for proficiency. The proficiency bonus for a weapon is in the weapons list in the equipment chapter. Other bonuses might come from feats, or a bonus from whatever attack you're using, or a situational modifier from the DM. I hope that makes it clear.
#4 volund-starfire Jun 30, 2008 16:41:00	PHB 287
#5 drmorganes Jun 30, 2008 18:04:21	Expanding a little: There are essentially three types of attacks in 4E: Melee Basic Attack Ranged Basic Attack Power-based attack Melee basic attacks are a single strike vs AC using a melee weapon. They are always based on Strength (with other bonuses applied as noted above), and inflict (1[W]+Str modifier) damage. A melee basic attack never has any effect other than damage. Ranged basic attacks are a single attack vs AC using a missile weapon. They are always based on Dexterity (with other bonuses applied as noted above), and inflict (1[W]+Dex modifier) damage. A ranged basic attack never has any effect other than damage. Powers vary in terms of base attribute, targeted defensive value, damage, and effect.
#6 sarcasm2k1 Jun 30, 2008 23:05:28	there seems to be a spot for class bonus but i'm not sure where it is. Any help would be greatly appreciated. As far as I know the class box is only used if your class happens to give a bonus to attacks. I believe only the fighter (1hd or 2hd) and rogue (daggers) give this sort of bonus. This is different from defenses where every class gives a bonus to one or more.
#7 dead_pool Jul 01, 2008 10:56:56	no bab+higher and automaxed defences= fewer hits fewer hits=dragged out combat healing surges = even more dragged out combat bloodied = more meta gameing so in my opinion no bab+higher and automaxed defences+fewer hits+dragged out combat+ even more dragged out combat+healing surges+bloodied+more ability to metagame= crappy combat system, seeing as how combat holds the vast majority of the attention in this new edition that says realy bad things aboutthis edition
#8 redcard Jul 01, 2008 11:11:01	no bab+higher and automaxed defences= fewer hits fewer hits=dragged out combat healing surges = even more dragged out combat bloodied = more meta gameing so in my opinion no bab+higher and automaxed defences+fewer hits+dragged out combat+ even more dragged out combat+healing surges+bloodied+more ability to metagame= crappy combat system, seeing as how combat holds the vast majority of the attention in this new edition that says realy bad things aboutthis edition No, it says you don't understand this edition at all. Thanks for playing, though.
#9 tipop Jul 01, 2008 11:24:18	no bab+higher and automaxed defences= fewer hits I'm guessing you haven't used the new system at all... or even read it. First, you say "no BAB". What was BAB in 3rd edition? It was +1 to hit, at first level, then increasing as you go up. In 4th, you get +2 or +3 at first level (depending on your weapon type), and it increases as you go up. So a second level fighter in 3.5 had a BAB of +2, while a second level fighter in 4e gets +4 to hit with his longsword (I'm ignoring attribute and feat bonuses, of course.) Second, you say "higher and automaxed defenses". I'm not even sure what this means. Your defenses aren't higher than those of a 3.5 character, and what the heck does "automaxed" mean? It's almost always a bad idea to speak from ignorance, Dead Pool. Read the rules and playtest them before you judge 'em.
#10 dead_pool Jul 01, 2008 11:54:09	eeeee(manual buzzer) wrong. I have played and read(out of the two sets of books bought between the 70 to 100 gamers i know personaly) any player that plays a mostly melee class can get chainmail that has a base +6 giving you the probability of haveing at least 18 ac at 1st level +2 proficiency bonus +0 (h/l) maybe a +3for str to total +5 must roll 13 or higher to hit. i do not remember the odds being that steep at first in 3e it has been a while since i played 3.x at first level though
#11 redcard Jul 01, 2008 12:08:09	eeeee(manual buzzer) wrong. I have played and read(out of the two sets of books bought between the 70 to 100 gamers i know personaly) any player that plays a mostly melee class can get chainmail that has a base +6 giving you the probability of haveing at least 18 ac at 1st level +2 proficiency bonus +0 (h/l) maybe a +3for str to total +5 must roll 13 or higher to hit. i do not remember the odds being that steep at first in 3e it has been a while since i played 3.x at first level though It's pretty clear that you don't know what you're talking about. You're pretending that the monsters haven't gotten a bump either. You're just wrong.
#12 Zherog Jul 01, 2008 12:57:49	Let's all try to remain friendly, eh? any player that plays a mostly melee class can get chainmail that has a base +6 giving you the probability of haveing at least 18 ac at 1st level +2 proficiency bonus +0 (h/l) maybe a +3for str to total +5 must roll 13 or higher to hit. i do not remember the odds being that steep at first in 3e it has been a while since i played 3.x at first level though Alright, so if I'm reading you right you're claiming an 18 armor class and +5 attack bonus for these 4e characters, yes? So let's look at 3.5. I don't recall starting gold values for a fighter; chainmail costs 150g, which I'm going to guess is above the amount of cash the fighter has. So we'll go with scale mail (50g), which is a +4 armor bonus. We'll give our fighter a +1 Dex mod (seems reasonable to me), and we'll also toss in a heavy wooden shield (7g) for another +2. So our first level fighter has spent 57 gold and has a total armor class of 17. Now let's look at another fighter, from the attack side. He has a +1 BAB, and a Strength mod of +3, for a total attack of +4. So, to hit the first fighter, our guy has to roll a 13 or better. Which, incidentally, is the same as your 4e example. If our attack fighter takes Weapon Focus (not unreasonable) he needs a 12 instead - only slightly better. Seems pretty comparable to me.
#13 tipop Jul 01, 2008 14:42:02	eeeee(manual buzzer) wrong. I have played and read(out of the two sets of books bought between the 70 to 100 gamers i know personaly) Ok, you've read the rules... you simply missed some stuff. ...any player that plays a mostly melee class can get chainmail that has a base +6 giving you the probability of haveing at least 18 ac at 1st level You missed the part about how only LIGHT armor gives you Dex (or Int) bonus to AC, right? Chainmail gives you AC 16 regardless of your Dex or Int. Thus a typical first level fighter is going to have +3 from strength and +3 from weapon proficiency, allowing him to hit AC 16 on a 10 or better. Now admittedly a fighter might go for a weapon that only has a +2 proficiency bonus, requiring him to roll an 11, but those weapons typically do more damage or have other benefits. So... you were wrong about "automaxed defenses" as you call it, and you were wrong about "no BAB" (which I noticed you failed to defend in your rebuttal.) Want to try defending your position that healing surges make combat drag out longer? (Hint: monsters generally don't get healing surges.)
#14 mouthymerc Jul 03, 2008 9:35:28	Alright, so if I'm reading you right you're claiming an 18 armor class and +5 attack bonus for these 4e characters, yes? So let's look at 3.5. I don't recall starting gold values for a fighter; chainmail costs 150g, which I'm going to guess is above the amount of cash the fighter has. So we'll go with scale mail (50g), which is a +4 armor bonus. We'll give our fighter a +1 Dex mod (seems reasonable to me), and we'll also toss in a heavy wooden shield (7g) for another +2. So our first level fighter has spent 57 gold and has a total armor class of 17. Now let's look at another fighter, from the attack side. He has a +1 BAB, and a Strength mod of +3, for a total attack of +4. So, to hit the first fighter, our guy has to roll a 13 or better. Which, incidentally, is the same as your 4e example. If our attack fighter takes Weapon Focus (not unreasonable) he needs a 12 instead - only slightly better. A good example. I wouldn't even include stats or feats, though. Just go with the basics. 3.5 Chainmail (AC +5)/1st lvl BAB 1/1 and longsword (+1 attack) 4.0 Chainmail (AC +6)/1st lvl BAB 1/2 and longsword (+3 attack) So, at first level, there is actually a gain for the longsword user. This will vary, for the most part, but the biggest thing here, though, is we are not ending up with numbers in the stratosphere. The whole system now, for the most part, comes down to your skill, attributes, and other various factors (such as weapon used, enhancements, etc.). So far, it seems to work very well.