Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 crashfreze Jul 01, 2008 16:33:04	I am writing this guide because I have read numerous threads where people complain about their party getting slaughtered by an even encounter level and fuss that the challenges are broken, etc. With the sincerest intent I can possibly express, it is important to understand this point: 4th edition combat is highly tactical Excellent tactics can mean the difference between a group of adventurers that can slice through an even level encounter like warm butter or be destroyed by it. Either face a +5 level encounter to which victory spreads reputations of greatness, or get relegated to even level sewer encounters with minimal treasure and reward. Good tactics can compensate for bad rolls. Bad tactics can diminish awesome rolls. Disclaimer Some of you guys who are really good at tactics can argue this point or that point I am going to make. That's fine but remember this guide isn't meant for you. It's meant for the guy who I saw complaining that his group keeps getting crushed and his fighter's favorite weapon is the longbow. The Chess Analogy To become good at tactics you have to understand your roles. In chess the pieces have certain strengths and weaknesses. It's when they work together they can achieve the most potency. You would never treat a Rook like it was a pawn or a Queen like it was a Knight. DnD 4e should be no different. So many times people try to force combat concepts on characters that simply do not fit. If you want a fighter this is awesome with a longbow then don't make a fighter, make a ranger. You would never force a Knight in chess to do the job of a queen so don't do the same in 4th ed. My Group The group I DM for is very good at tactics and they are still learning. When we were first play testing 4th edition, we were able to tactically edge out a win in an encounter 7 levels higher than normal! Admittedly we got lucky on a few saving throws and critical hits at crucial points but the fact remains the same. We were solid tactically and with some luck beat an encounter 7 levels higher! I will be referring to a few examples from our play through this guide. A word about Initiative If at all possible the ideal initiative order is this... 1. Defender 2. Striker 3. Leader/Controller 4. Enemies Usually our rogues/rangers will defer initiative as far down the line as they can but not behind enemies. It's important for them to move ahead of enemies but also important for the defenders to move into position ahead of them. Fighters/Paladins - The Meat Shields Again, if at all possible convince your PC's to defer to these guys in initiative order. The job of the defender is to move into the center of the combat arena, kind of like a goalie in soccer, stand in the middle so you can deflect anything that tries to go by you. Issue challenges to enemies, select powers that allow you to control their movement (slides, pushes, pulls), take damage so your squishy teammates don't have to and attack anyone that tries to move past you. For awhile our group had two defenders, a fighter and paladin. When battle began they would take up a position and stand two squares apart from each other and effectively controlled 6 contiguous squares in a straight line that was hard for enemies to pass by them without severe punishment. Clerics/Warlords -The Support These guys stand BEHIND the defenders and offer support, encouragement, healing and when the situation is appropriate some offense. To keep these guys adequately protected keep them behind the defenders. There are many circumstances they can engage directly in melee and that's fine, especially if they are built with defense in mind. Do not let them try to do the defender's job. Let them help the defenders, not act like one (unless of course a defender is absent). Rogues/Rangers/Warlocks - Tactical Nukes Leave the damage to these guys. It's in their best interest to gain combat advantage and crush the enemies with sick amounts of damage. These guys can float around combat, in and out and between enemies. They can put themselves at risk for some melee powers or stand back and hit enemies with ranged weapons. Either way these guys are your offense. Wizard - Turning the Tide in your favor This guy has a lot of powers that weaken your enemies, augment your party powers, control squares, restrict movement, and yes has some respectable offense. As evidenced by the fact that most of his powers are Ranged 20, he can stand WAAAAY back and be effective. Our campaign last night featured a Wizard who was the star because he kept enemies off balance, knocked backwards, and basically pwned. Working Together When everyone understands the strengths and weaknesses of each other, and more importantly, the proper roles, your party will achieve maximum tactical efficiency. Example of Great Tactical Play Last night my 1st level group of 5 took on a young white dragon and really kicked it's tail (no pun intended). Basically here is how it worked. We rolled initiative and the dragon was lucky enough to go last. All of the players in the group deferred to the fighter who ran into the room and took up position adjacent to the dragon. The two rogues went next and took up flanking positions on both sides of the dragon (two rogues with combat advantage equals a bad day for the enemy). The cleric took up a position behind the fighter, as far back as he could from the dragon but close enough to hit him with a longbow and to hit the fighter with healing powers. The wizard stayed 20 squares away from the dragon. Before the dragon even moved it was flanked, dazed, immobilized and marked. Not to mention it had taken about 40 damage in the first round. It tried to move but the fighter got an opportunity attack that kept him pinned down and in place. He ripped the fighter apart with a vicious 3 hit attack for 23 points of damage. Next round the fighter took his attack and missed. The cleric used a minor action to buff his next attack roll +1. Then he fired his daily power Beacon of Hope, allowed the fighter to spend a healing surge and buffed him for +2 on his next attack. Then the cleric burned his action point and used a power that gave the fighter an additional +2 on his next attack. The rogues crushed the dragon with their sneak attacks. The wizard cast cloud of daggers in the dragons square for constant damage. The dragon used his frightful presence and failed. The fighter realized he had a +4 to attack so he used his daily power and hit for a 4[W]+STR hit! I could go on but you get the point. The fighter had the dragon pinned as long as he could hit him with OA's, the rogues had it flanked and were getting sneak attack each round. The cleric was healing the fighter who was taking all of the damage. The wizard was standing way back and sniping the dragon when able and offering constant damage on effect powers. For the record I was recalling all of this from memory so please dont come back and say "your fighter should not have gotten this attack or that". I may not be recalling all the circumstances correctly but the point remains the same. A group of 5 first level adventures absolutely crushed this young dragon in 6 rounds and the only one who took damage was the fighter. In fact we did a dungeon of 4 rooms plus the dragon and only 3 players took damage, the fighter and two rogues. The only reason one rogue took damage was he sprung a trap. Happy Hunting!
#2 raijuexe Jul 01, 2008 18:34:47	I had the same situation but the dragon was flying and that made things way more difficult for my group.
#3 themocaw Jul 01, 2008 18:58:12	Another point to add, which you kind of covered: time your attacks well. You want to use your daily Fire ability AFTER another character has cast the spell that gives the target vulnerability to Fire, not before. Remember that talking to your friends is a free action: call out, "Spinning Sweep, Morris!" and wait until the enemy is prone before you unleash your daily, so you get that nice +2 to hit. Held and Readied Actions are great for that.
#4 tyrandor Jul 01, 2008 18:59:28	While most of what you write in here is accurate... That seems like a poorly played dragon + extreme luck on the player's side (frightful presence 'failed'? They also win initiative, which makes a huge difference against a Solo!). They have action points too :P and the white dragon's weakening effect on his breath is a killer. It also sound like you're describing the Kobold Hall adventre from the DMG... which gives a HUGE tactical homefield advantage to the dragon - which doesn't seem to have been used here. But since you're going from memory, I'm not going to pick apart at it to much.
#5 dudelander Jul 01, 2008 20:58:07	A word about Initiative If at all possible the ideal initiative order is this... 1. Defender 2. Striker 3. Leader/Controller 4. Enemies I very much disagree with this. Controllers should almost always try to move first in the initiative order. Their spells are highly dependent on terrain modification and area of effect spells. Once the enemies are in melee range, they loose a great deal of their effectiveness if they don't want to risk hurting their party members. They also need to be able to take advantage of any enemy grouping that may exist.
#6 bedeverekm Jul 02, 2008 2:20:16	My groups fight with the dragon went somewhat differently. The DMG Kobold halls adventure, our group went in the entrance, and got hit by dragon breath out of nowhere. One person critted and dying, one person on 2 HP. Following on from that, it had initiative, and used frightful presence, and an action point to triple hit another person into negatives. Two turns later, it was decided that a dragon with home field advantage, and no fire vulnerability (which annoyed my wizard with more than one fire spell) was very harsh to put against a level 1 party with no experience of the game. We've been playing for years, have routinely dropped things way over our level in multiple systems, but that thing was simply overpowered, thanks to dropping most of the party, before we even got to act.
#7 crashfreze Jul 02, 2008 9:11:02	While most of what you write in here is accurate... That seems like a poorly played dragon + extreme luck on the player's side (frightful presence 'failed'? They also win initiative, which makes a huge difference against a Solo!). They have action points too :P and the white dragon's weakening effect on his breath is a killer. It also sound like you're describing the Kobold Hall adventre from the DMG... which gives a HUGE tactical homefield advantage to the dragon - which doesn't seem to have been used here. But since you're going from memory, I'm not going to pick apart at it to much. Some of what you site is correct but in actuality the players did a great job minimizing his advantage. Yes the dragon rolled a 6 on initiative and rolled a 4 on frightful presence. However, one of my players cleverly stealthed and peered into the cave and spotted the dragon before battle began. He told the group there was a young dragon in the room and the cleric "prayed over the group for courage" and warned them all the dangers of the dragon. Since they were clever enough to do all of these things I gave everyone an unannounced +4 to their Will defense for the fear check, so there was a good chance they were going to pass it anyway. As soon as the dragon moved the group did indeed surround it so that it's blast power was minimized to one target no matter which way he faced. The group kept the dragon with some kind of status on him (daze, immobile, slow, weakened, marked) for the entire fight, often multiple statuses. They experienced some good fortune without a doubt, but the fact remains they absolutely crushed the dragon. He tried to get away and reposition him but the fighter kept him pinned to his position with his class ability to do just that. Rogues had him flanked and both had CA the entire fight. They really ripped that dragon in half. The point is for all intents and purposes, this fight was "easy" for them because they were strong tactically AND lucky. If they were strong tactically and did not receive lucky dice rolls it would have been a tough fight but they would have still won. If they were BAD tactically AND unlucky this would have been an impossible fight. The overall point is excellent tactics will overcome bad rolls and unfortunate circumstances.
#8 gentlemanic Jul 02, 2008 10:40:53	Flanking a solo monsters with two strikers isn't a tactic, it's a no-brainer. I don't know how the wizard achieved to get to far from it and the rest got next to it ánd got attacks. I think that must have cost a whole bunch of action points. I was hoping to get some more advice out of this thread. My group is starting 4.0 this weekend and though we have played some games your tactics aren't helping me very much.
#9 ski309 Jul 02, 2008 11:26:18	I was hoping to get some more advice out of this thread. My group is starting 4.0 this weekend and though we have played some games your tactics aren't helping me very much. Well... this is *basic* tactics. This is a pretty small primer to 4E tactics, however. I would love for someone to post another thread on advanced 4E tactics/tactical theory.
#10 crashfreze Jul 02, 2008 11:51:17	Well... this is *basic* tactics. This is a pretty small primer to 4E tactics, however. I would love for someone to post another thread on advanced 4E tactics/tactical theory. I may do that at some point. But as you correctly pointed out this guide is mostly for newbies and that is spelled out pretty clearly in the disclaimer.
#11 Simonides Jul 02, 2008 12:59:01	Well, the real problem with posting tactical advice is that truly good tactical advice changes from situation to situation. Learning how to think strategically takes experience, practice, and perhaps a little talent. The Defender doesn't always want to go first, but sometimes, he sure does. There are even times when it is most advantageous to let the monsters have the first action. Sometimes, the Leader is the best opener if he intends to use one of those 'until end of encounter' abilities. Sometimes, the Controller is the best opener against groups of weak foes coming from several different directions. Rogues are at their absolute best whenever they go first, based solely on class abilities. Good tactics... well, its really about strategic thinking, it is about learning how to assess a situation, identify courses of action, evaluate each course of action based on expected results, and then, to do it all again next round, because the situation is constantly changing. In a team game like D&D, you also have to be able to determine what the other players are likely to do and what they do best and worst and take that into account. Following any general rule of thumb in any strategic situation is dangerous. First, because it doesn't always work and it may set you up for problems. Second, because if you believe it will work, you may be slower to adapt to situations in which it won't work, or even recognize those situations.
#12 tyrandor Jul 02, 2008 14:44:32	The overall point is excellent tactics will overcome bad rolls and unfortunate circumstances. I'm not disagreeing with your point, I am however saying that your example doesn't show that at all. The White Dragon in Kobold Hall has 3 significant advantage: 1 - He starts from across the room and he has Speed Fly 10. I'm not sure how the players managed to 'surround' him. 2 - There's a sizable (4X6) patch of ice in the room, which also happens to be in between him and the player. It is difficult terrain for the player, but not for him (icewalk + fly). 3 - He starts 'stealthed' and behind a pilar (so no line of sight) and might very well have a surprise round. With that in mind, here are the points I'm bringing in contention in your description of the fight: Frightful Presence: So your player scouted (smart) and saw him first... not that hard to believe, the Dragon's Stealth score is pretty pathetic (+1). es the dragon rolled a 6 on initiative and rolled a 4 on frightful presence. You are aware that in the case of 'Close and Area' attack, you roll a separate attack roll for every different target caught in the effect? (p.271 PHB) Even with a +4 to their defense, the odds are that he'll stun at least 1 person in a group of 5. Why you gave +4 to will defense however, is beyond me. The fact that they can no longer be 'surprised' to me is already a huge tactical advantage. I'm pretty confident many a new player of Kobold Hall has died more or less in the Surprise round as it is (see Bedeverekm's post). Frightful Presence has two use really... the first is to allow the dragon to tear apart foes he's already beating up, the 2nd is as a 'free move' - while the opponents are stunned, he can easily shift/move into a better position. It is an encounter power, it is there to make a huge impact... by 'nerfing' it, you've already gone a long way in trivialising the encounter. Frost Breath: While I don't see the battle mat in front of me, the dragon's sizable ... size... should have allowed him to shift (which a warrior can't stop you from doing, he only get an extra attack) and open up at least one of the rogue to his Breath Attack. Also, both Sacred Flame and Healing Word have a range of 5, so in order to use it, the Cleric would need to be in the Dragon's range... meaning the Dragon could have used his Breath (Close attack) and hit the Cleric + Fighter without even needing to shift. They surrounded him?: This is the hard part to swallow. You also say your wizard stayed 20 square away. The room isn't even that big >_> Even if they win initiative, there's no way in hell they can get to him first. He's at least 7 square away from the entrance, and 6 of those square are difficult terrain. If you try to go around the difficult terrain, you increase the distance to well over 14 squares! Not only that, but the Dragon will move at least 3-4 squares faster then all of them. If the Dragon realizes the adventurers see him and know he's there, and he lost initiative... the smart thing to do would be for to see where they moved and then land on the ice and use his Frost Breath on the heroes (even if that means he misses a few of them - but with Blast 5, hitting all 3 melee wouldn't be that hard). The Heroes are now Slowed, Weakened and have to enter difficult terrain to even get to him. He then spends an Action point and use Frightful Presence - again, odds are he won't get everybody (Since he landed on the ice and not directly by the players, who may have spread out), but even if he doesn't (of it fails), he's still in his strategic position. If it stuns the fighter, he can then fly directly to the Wizard/Cleric and start the pain on him. If the Wizard/Cleric stayed behind, their Slowed melee friend are going to have a hard time getting to the dragon. If he can keep the fight on the ice field, he can shift with little risk (only occurring 1 attack from the fighter) while everybody else need to use full movement (Can't shift on difficult terrain) to keep up and thus give him opportunity attack (At 1d8+4+2d6, his OA HURT!). Combined with his Reach of 2, he can easily 'shift back' and then attack, forcing the melee to give him 1 OA a turn or let him get out of range. This is further compounded by his Slow Breath... Slow effect + Difficult Terrain + Reach 2 means the dragon could very realistically kill the entire melee line by simply shifting back and hitting them while outside of their reach if they don't wisen up. So what did you do? - Not use a combat grid and ballpark distance in your player's favor? - Removed the ice? - Removed the dragon's cover? - Put the dragon way closer to the entrance? - Ignore the dragon's higher mobility? There's a reason why that encounter is considered difficult and many people say it's even to hard for new players - because if played properly, that dragon is an incredible opponent. If you let your players surround him in the first round (/boggle) and give them a +4 bonus against his encounter power... then yeah, he isn't that tough. To claim that it was great tactic when it seems like a case of a DM softening an encounter is flat out silly. I mean there's nothing wrong with softening an encounter for your players... I myself plan to add an npc helper for this encounter. But an example of great strategy, it isn't.