Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 raze_ Jul 26, 2008 12:46:26	In the flickering firelight the sharp teifling horns of Warlord Raze cast jagged shadows on the trophy-adorned wall. Feared across the land for his brutally effective battle stratagems, Raze sneers as he sets down the scroll he had been reading titled, “Basic Tactics for Dummies.” “Basic indeed. Surely we can do better than this!” Producing a quill and ink, he swiftly sets to work writing a response. (Noting that while these boards have a wealth of information on making characters, it seems that they lack a solid discussion of how the characters might handle themselves in actual battle. Crashfreze's thread is a start: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1055202&highlight=tactics I 'd like to continue it by asking what general principles are most effective in helping us approach fighting battles successfully. Of course the specifics of the situation will be key, as well as the specific strengths and resources each side brings to a particular engagement, so no single set of guidelines will guarantee success in any single battle. However, in order to have a productive discussion, it is necessary to speak at a certain level of generality. In other words, this shouldn't become a discussion of X class vs. Y class or X power vs. Y power. As one who often plays in pickup groups or RPGA games, I thought it might be helpful to think through some general principles that could help us make sound decisions no matter what kind of group makeup we find ourselves with at the table. I will start with a few humble observations concerning group engagements—the ones that seem to get complicated fast. Maybe this stuff is too obvious. Toss in your ideas, agreement, flames, or whatever) “Raze's Principles of Thrashing Foes” Offense- 1.“Offense ends fights.” This seems obvious, but is often forgotten. This principle means that if we are faced with two options that seem effective, we choose the one that is most damaging to the enemy. There is plenty of time to heal ourselves once the enemy is dead. By removing the enemy's ability to damage us, we best conserve our resources (healing surges). 2.“Strike down the weak.” Successful offense depends on causing the maximum destruction in the shortest time possible by applying force where it will be most effective. Minions, weakly armored foes, and injured foes get first priority. For example: killing a minion (in one hit) immediately reduces the enemy's offensive ability, whereas doing 8 points to that dragonshield kobold does nothing to his ability to whack you back on his turn (unless he is already close to death—in which case we might consider HIM the weak target. And even in this case we still might attack the minion because the dragonshield is more difficult to hit). Foes that have taken damage are weaker than fresh ones—we focus our efforts and kill injured or bloodied foes first to deprive the enemy of offensive ability. Splitting damage between two enemies makes us cry. If the enemy happens to be divided into two or more groups, it is our lucky day. We assess the situation and determine which group of foes is weaker—then thrash that side first with an all-out assault (this means strikers!). If the enemy is foolish enough to expose its cloth-wearing casters to our attacks, we take advantage of it and relieve them of their miserable existence. Offense is the art of applying strength to weakness. We never attack the enemy's strong point, for that would be sheer foolishness (and might get us mistaken for a paladin or some kind of honorable knight, bleh). 3.“Early aggressiveness yields victory.” Despite what some 60's rock-singers might claim, time is never on our side. Our encounter powers and daily powers do not recharge. We do not get action points back in the middle of a fight, and our healing surges are limited. We should use offensive encounter powers in round one to tip the scale in our favor early and end the fight as soon as possible. If the fight seems particularly dangerous, we use daily offensive powers and action points right away to put one of the enemy down quickly. A Brute Strike saved up does a fighter no good...when he is on the ground dead because he failed to finish off a foe! Defense- 1.“The best defense is a good offense.” See #1 above. 2.“Do not show the enemy a weakness.” In other words, stay together and stay back if you do not enjoy taking hits. Just as we seek out the enemy's weak point, so too will the enemy try to capitalize on any we may present to him. Charging forward to attack an enemy artillery in the back may seem brave and might be effective at first, but if you get isolated and out of range of healing, death will shortly follow. (I've been in 2 parties so far where the fighter has been whining for healing after charging across a room full of enemies—provoking OAs in the process—and getting out of healing range. Don't do it!) 3.“Do not show the enemy a weakness, part 2.” We do not provoke opportunity attacks. Most provoking actions are not worth the chance of making the situation that much worse with a bunch more damage. It is concievable that there might be a situation where provoking might be worth it, especially if we have a very very high AC and are provoking from enemy artillery, but those cases are rare indeed. 4.“Let defenders deal with tough enemies.” Defenders are for defense, so we let them keep the tough enemies (enemy soldiers in particular) occupied while our strikers mop up the squishy foes. Their sacrifice. . . I mean bravery. . . will be sung about for generations. 5.“Never step through doorways or stand at the end of hallways.” These are very dangerous places where multiple enemies can attack a single one of our peons . . . um, I mean our valuable warriors. We therefore stand just outside of the doorway, or a minimum of 1 square back into the hallway to limit our exposure. Raze
#2 maulorn Jul 26, 2008 17:08:31	Use the terrain to your advantage... Like using a door for cover.
#3 bodyknock Jul 27, 2008 8:50:41	Learn to time your actions using delays and readied actions to achieve maximum effectiveness - Some attacks are highly positional. A wizard's area effect attack, for example, works best when he can hit as many enemies as possible without also hitting his allies in the process. A warlord power that gives an adjacent ally a bonus only works right if there's an ally in range. A rogue's sneak attack only works if he has a way to get combat advantage. So sometimes it's worth delaying your attacks until everything is in place to achieve maximum effectiveness. If the warlord who can buff adjacent allies goes first, for example, it doesn't do him much good to charge into combat immediately ahead of everybody else and become isolated. Instead he should probably delay his action until someone else in the party gets into melee range of an enemy, and then move in next to that ally to assist him. Similarly if a wizard sees that one of his friends is temporarily flanked by two enemies, it might be worth the wizard delaying his action until after his friend can shift 1 square to become unflanked so that he won't be hurt when the wizard uses an area effect attack on those enemies. Therefore it can be useful to not always immediately take an attack when your turn comes up. Why take a basic melee or basic ranged attack when, if you wait a turn or two, the combatants will be in better position for another power?
#4 raze_ Jul 27, 2008 11:07:21	Learn to time your actions using delays and readied actions to achieve maximum effectiveness - Yes! This is super important, especially when we can delay initiative through our allies and still act before the enemies. There is absolutely no disadvantage to delaying through allies. Delaying through enemies is still sometimes worth it too, as Bodyknock's examples point out. Here's another one: at the beginning of the fight on a relatively open battlefield, both sides are sometimes closing in on each other and trying to occupy the most advantageous position with the best formation. At these times the damage has not started coming yet, so we can afford to let the enemy live a little longer. We let them advance first, hopefully wasting their standard action as a movement, then we move and attack (charging if necessary) killing as many as possible before their initiative comes up again. Once the furious melee has begun, however, we try not to delay through the enemy if any of our possible attacks might reduce their chances of damaging us on their action. For example, sometimes I will take a relatively weak attack (throwing an axe) if I have a chance to kill off a minion or a bloodied foe before they can get a swing at us (and without getting myself out of formation). Keep it coming! Raze
#5 foxen Jul 28, 2008 3:36:34	Here Dhalia's take on Battle Tactics (she's my human pally in my friend's campaign. Since I turned in a background for her, her axe gets a reroll once per day). 1. Lining up the Big Hit! Characters should coordinate to help each other line up for the BIG attack (dailies and otherwise). Dhalia usually manuevers for combat advantage and attacks with her Action Surged Action Point usually in conjunction with bonuses from Divine Glow or other coordinated team bonuses. With her magical axe Lerissa, she saves her re-roll if she misses (good for the elves who haven't figured this out yet!). 2. Tanking - Share the Wealth! Dhalia's battle group has never fully understood that the only difference between "defender" and "non-defender" is her thick heavy plate armor....and only at AC19 (lv3, Plate) she's easy meat against most monsters and villains. Although she Divine Challenges and marks key opponents (especially to draw attacks away from the Wizard), she often juggles who she aggravates in battle and then what not "always" stepping in between the monsters and her teammates. Yes, she is not a shining example of heroicism, but she's got a brain which has kept her alive more than once. If she was to absorb attacks from most of the mobs, she would quickly drop (Con 10, 38HP) and once that happens, the rest of the group is up the creek. She'll doesn't mind that her teammates are taking hits and allows the damage to get spread across the party instead of just her. Not to mention, most of the party's AC is close to hers...with high Int and Dex and armor feats, many of the characters are coming close to her AC. But what help is that she constantly monitors her teammates well-being, asking if they are doing okay, if they need a heal, and constantly communicates with the cleric (who only "sometimes" listens to her pleas). In our last session, she actually RAN out of Healing Surges over two encounters as she battled her way against sharkmen and their minions without wearing any armor...heck, who wears plate armor while traveling on a ship. 3. Corners, Last Woman Standing Best Friend. Fighting from the corner may help especially if you are alone and unable to get back to your teammates. Opponents lose their flank bonuses against you and well, better than nothing. Likewise, usually having your back against the wall or an object helps reduce opponents' threat against you. 4. Stand Guard Over Your Fallen. Standing from prone triggers an opportunity of attack. However, if Dhalia stands in her fallen ally's space, when they get up, they get a free shift to another square before they stand. Her guarding her allies as they recover from combat helps prevent them from taking whacks. 5. Focus Fire PLEASE!!!! This has been a party problem...focus fire and has been mentioned before on the forums...focus fire to take down them high hitpoint monsters...I don't understand why the party chooses to deal a lot of little damage to multiple opponents...and they are not bloodied yet, and yet they continue to split attack. She is very frustrated. 6. Javelins, Hand Axes, and Rocks...Oh My. Dhalia carries extra heavy thrown ranged weapons (Dex7 means she err, she prefers Heavy Thrown) for good measure. Sometimes she can't reach melee or they are out of melee reach (like on the roof) having that one extra attack helps, especially against minions. 7. Bottlenecking Requires No Sucking. More than once, the party dwarves (they split from the current party...since their players moved to the mainland) would charge in through the door (as already mentioned), get mobbed, and then the rest of the group would need to rush in the save them. Dhalia believes in bottlenecking opponents...drawing opponents to rush through the door...only to face the wall of blades and shields. Anyhow, here's a few thoughts...from Dhalia's thoughts if she was able to access the internet and post. Fox
#6 Psikerlord Jul 28, 2008 7:22:23	Talk to your fellow players! Co-ordinate your knockdowns etc to increase the probability of landing your encounter/daily powers. Get yourself a warlord for superior party positioning!
#7 kaldair Jul 28, 2008 12:54:51	4. Stand Guard Over Your Fallen. Standing from prone triggers an opportunity of attack. However, if Dhalia stands in her fallen ally's space, when they get up, they get a free shift to another square before they stand. Her guarding her allies as they recover from combat helps prevent them from taking whacks. Awesome, never realized that. And just because it can't be emphasized enough, the most important rule It's fun to play the Legolas-Gimli game but IT DOESN'T WORK! DEAD MEN DON'T HIT BACK! FOCUS FIRE!
#8 branar Jul 28, 2008 13:08:05	2.“Strike down the weak.” Successful offense depends on causing the maximum destruction in the shortest time possible by applying force where it will be most effective. Just a side point here: it's also about the most efficient application of force. If you know that your wizard will likely cast a burning hands on his action, don't waste your time going after the minions even though they're the weakest target; pick on something that his burning hands isn't likely to destroy.
#9 voran Jul 28, 2008 22:56:24	Don't bring a knife to a gun fight? Seriously though: Be flexible. Using the same approach or unwavering devotion to a particular approach can lead to bad things happening.
#10 Valdark Jul 29, 2008 1:33:59	Especially useful for rouges is to Wait for backup. This entails getting into position and readying your attack for when your ally gets into flanking position. By doing this rather than delaying you preserve your higher initiative and get your sneak attack.
#11 DeathMutantLives Jul 29, 2008 19:20:57	Standing from prone triggers an opportunity of attack. This is only true if your DM house-ruled it; it is not an official rule.
#12 kradlo Jul 29, 2008 23:17:17	Standing up from prone does not trigger OAs in 4E, though it certainly did in 3.5. But guarding your fallen comrades does make sense in the regard that being prone does grant combat advantage to melee attacks against you. The Aid Another action is a really good choice in combination with another player's big daily attack. Make sure that attack lands! Flank your opponents whenever possible. Take advantage of every chance to gain combat advantage, and to deny it to your opponents. Recognize minions when they appear, and use blast and burst powers to mow them down en masse. Use your knowledge skills to reveal information about your opponents. No action is required, but knowing resistances and vulnerabilities requires a DC 25 knowledge check. Work as a team, and watch out for each other. A potion of healing can save a downed teammate - that's 50 gp well spent.
#13 consul_vido Jul 30, 2008 11:54:55	Especially useful for rouges is to Wait for backup. This entails getting into position and readying your attack for when your ally gets into flanking position. By doing this rather than delaying you preserve your higher initiative and get your sneak attack. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I could have sworn that the rules now state that readying an action also changes your place in the initiative order.
#14 Valdark Jul 30, 2008 12:38:50	Please correct me if I am wrong, but I could have sworn that the rules now state that readying an action also changes your place in the initiative order. Yes but delaying lowers it further. That's what I was referring to, I apologize for being unclear. I meant preserving in relation to the team member in question.
#15 Valdark Jul 30, 2008 12:42:27	Standing up from prone does not trigger OAs in 4E, though it certainly did in 3.5. But guarding your fallen comrades does make sense in the regard that being prone does grant combat advantage to melee attacks against you. The Aid Another action is a really good choice in combination with another player's big daily attack. Make sure that attack lands! Flank your opponents whenever possible. Take advantage of every chance to gain combat advantage, and to deny it to your opponents. Recognize minions when they appear, and use blast and burst powers to mow them down en masse. Use your knowledge skills to reveal information about your opponents. No action is required, but knowing resistances and vulnerabilities requires a DC 25 knowledge check. Work as a team, and watch out for each other. A potion of healing can save a downed teammate - that's 50 gp well spent. Yes but if your Rogue falls prone it is advantageous to have your fighter step over him and mark the surrounding opponents. It will negate the hit bonuses from Combat Advantage and give the enemy reason not to attack the fallen comrade. It also helps to set up flanking the following round by allowing a shift in coordination with the Stand Up action. Making it possible to have the fallen ally Stand Up, Shift, then attack with combat advantage all in one round.
#16 kaldair Jul 30, 2008 12:51:05	See now that would be an interesting tactic. Run in, attack, fall prone (as a free action, isn't it?). Have the fighter come stand over you, and pull the trick outlined in the previous post. Hmm... falling prone purposefully...
#17 Valdark Jul 30, 2008 13:18:57	See now that would be an interesting tactic. Run in, attack, fall prone (as a free action, isn't it?). Have the fighter come stand over you, and pull the trick outlined in the previous post. Hmm... falling prone purposefully... Minor action but you could still do it.
#18 warcolonel Jul 30, 2008 14:48:24	A few: 1 - Pick your targets. Those capable of eliminating minions effectively should do so. Don't have your defender chase around 4 separate targets when the wizard could have AoE'd them the first round. Similary, the warlock should not be a speedbump for the elite brutes and soldiers crashing into the front line. If you're a defender, your job is to engage the targets with the best to-hit, since your high AC makes it harder to hit you. Strikers should target those with high AC or low health; with greater damage output and normally higher attacks, you are the most likely one to kill these enemies. Controllers need to be able to pick out which opponites the party does not wish to engage, and through use of status effects and zones sould hold off these enemies while the party deals with others. Leaders mainly need to keep an eye on their party members, not only to heal and buff them but to alsotake over for the tank who has just fallen, finish the controller the rogue just severly hurt, or kill the stragglers who made it out of the wizard's fireball. Focusing damage one one or two enemies at once is excellent, you can more quickly eliminate opponites, but, in the ideal encounter of 5 vs. 5, this allows 3-4 enemies freedom to do as they please. 2 - Team Up. Find out which power selections across the party work well together. Casting a blast AoE that imobolises or slows multiple opponites works, but having an ally run into the middle to release a close blast works better. A pair of defenders (such as in my game) can work very well together, alternately marking a target. This allows the other defender to move and provoke an opportunity attack from the beast, which in turn provokes an attack from the other defender, giving the monster second thoughts about attacking. A warlord and rogue/ranger can make a deadly combo, the warlord repositioning the striker into ideal placement with every attack. 3 - Share the wealth, share the glory. Just because an ally was not effective or even present durring a fight does not mean they aren't entitled to a cut of the loot. Since this is a team endevor, having your teammates equipted to the best of their ability, even if it means you loan them the gold, loose a share of the hoard, or wait on upgrading your own items, will ultimately help you. The same is true for experience. If an ally begins to lag behind in levels and such, try your best to bring them back up to snuff.
#19 kletian999 Jul 30, 2008 15:36:14	I'd advise against opening with heavy hits all the time. First off, you should make sure it isn't a minion you are about to craterize. Secondly, setting up hit bonus is ideal before burning something without a miss clause. Another "trick" to watch out for is diagnonal movement. Because of the space bending physics that make diagnonal movement no more expensive than lateral movement enemies can diagnonal step half their move off the side and return while moving vertically at the same cost as moving straight down, avoiding obstacles like defenders. If your squishies aren't standing adjacent to you, make them form a diagnonal line with the defender, the monster, and the squishie.
#20 malcapricornis Aug 06, 2008 12:50:17	I have found that squishies soaking a bit of the damage isn't a bad thing as it spreads out the healing surge usage. But to help mitigate it when you really don't want it use a 3 man front. OXOOXOOXO is 9 squares of OA that the monster has to negotiate. Making it OXOXOXO is 7 squares and even more pain.
#21 Dark_Stryke Aug 06, 2008 18:07:14	Yes but if your Rogue falls prone it is advantageous to have your fighter step over him and mark the surrounding opponents. It will negate the hit bonuses from Combat Advantage and give the enemy reason not to attack the fallen comrade. It also helps to set up flanking the following round by allowing a shift in coordination with the Stand Up action. Making it possible to have the fallen ally Stand Up, Shift, then attack with combat advantage all in one round. Stand up action? What's that? It's a move action to stand from prone, and a move action to shift (unless you're a kobold).
#22 Valdark Aug 07, 2008 2:23:23	Stand up action? What's that? It's a move action to stand from prone, and a move action to shift (unless you're a kobold). If the square you are in is occupied then you can shift as part of your Stand Up Action. I admit I misspoke on the second shift being possible in the first round. My mistake, thank you for the correction. He would need to spend an action point to complete the setup that I mentioned and complete the flanking maneuver. STAND UP: MOVE ACTION ✦ Occupied Space: If your space is occupied by another creature, you can shift 1 square, as part of this move action, to stand up in an adjacent unoccupied space. If your space and all adjacent squares are occupied by other creatures, you can’t stand up.
#23 kaldair Aug 07, 2008 7:27:57	If the square you are in is occupied then you can shift as part of your Stand Up Action. I admit I misspoke on the second shift being possible in the first round. My mistake, thank you for the correction. He would need to spend an action point to complete the setup that I mentioned and complete the flanking maneuver. STAND UP: MOVE ACTION ✦ Occupied Space: If your space is occupied by another creature, you can shift 1 square, as part of this move action, to stand up in an adjacent unoccupied space. If your space and all adjacent squares are occupied by other creatures, you can’t stand up. Not if he had a nice little level 1 magic item called acrobat boots.
#24 cybermonkey Aug 11, 2008 15:25:34	Forgive me if this idea has been posted elsewhere. 5th level Starlock with Arcane Initiate [Thunderwave]: 1.) Hunger of Hadar 2.) Dire Radiance 3.) Thunderwave Setup: For maximum effectiveness, make sure your target is at least WIS mod + 1 squares away from party front. Helps with shifty enemies especially. Rounds: 1.) Make sure target is closest enemy to you. a) Curse enemy. b) Use Dire Radiance on the target. Sets up the trigger to do damage because they move closer to you. Enemy takes Curse damage. c) Use action point. d) Use Hunger of Hadar. Enemy takes damage from being within the zone. e) Enemy moves out of the zone. Enemy takes damage from Dire Radiance. 2.) Use Thunderwave to push enemy back into zone. Enemy takes damage from entering zone and from Curse. a) Sustain Hunger of Hadar b) Hit enemy on secondary attack c) Enemy takes HoH secondary damage. d) Enemy starts in zone and takes HoH damage. In the interim, any creatures that started their turns or entered the zone while up takes damage and any that somehow get pushed back in (probably by others) may take secondary attack damage. Sustaining HoH will continue this effect. If you have Ethereal Stride and Otherwind Stride, you can add another round of fun. If at any point the cursed target dies, you get +1 to your next attack (Fate of the Void. Better if you have Improved Fate of the Void). Lots of fun with minions (especially using the Rod of Corruption). I admit this won't always be easy to set up, but fun while it lasts. I know that my rounds tree could be better formatted but I think you get the idea.
#25 The_Harlequin Aug 11, 2008 18:49:15	2.) Use Thunderwave to push enemy back into zone. Enemy takes damage from entering zone and from Curse. a) Sustain Hunger of Hadar b) Hit enemy on secondary attack c) Enemy takes HoH secondary damage. d) Enemy starts in zone and takes HoH damage. e) Enemy moves towards you and takes damage from Dire Radiance. How they going to take DR damage on round 2 unless you tag 'em again?
#26 cybermonkey Aug 11, 2008 19:27:00	How they going to take DR damage on round 2 unless you tag 'em again? My bad. That was a cut-n-paste mistake as I was working from a plain text file before pasting into my post. I removed 2e from my original post.
#27 entropy_judge Aug 16, 2008 9:29:51	I don't see it, and I consider it one of the most basic tactics around, so ... *Don't be afraid to run away.* 1) You can return, better prepared for what you will face. 2) You can take advantage of previous terrain for defensive and offensive purposes. 3) If attacking a relatively undisciplined group of guards, you may be able to draw some of the less dangerous ones away, reducing the total force of the enemy when you attack the defenders again.