Beguiler Help - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Beguiler Help

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
blazanar
May 06, 2008 14:28:42 I wanted to make a beguiler but i had never played them before. If anyone can give me any good ideas on how to make a great and most useful and succesful beuguiler thanks
#2
crimsondeath
May 06, 2008 15:30:16 Shadowcraft Mage (from Races of Stone) is a great Gnome Beguiler prestiege class.

Other than that, I'd encourage you to learn the limitations of your Illusion spells... and push them. Get everything you can out of them.
#3
anansi
May 06, 2008 21:16:04 CrimsonDeath is right, illusions can be ridiculously versatile and powerful when used intelligently and creatively.

That being said, here are some useful links from the Character Optimization Boards:

The New Beguiler Handbook - The most recently written one

Handbook to building a strong Beguiler - Lots of good tips here.

Beguiler Handbook - This is the older version of the Beguiler Handbook

Shadowcraft Magickery:
Shadowcraft Illusionist = Killer Gnome!
Shadowcraft Mage Handbook

General Illusion Magic:
Treantmonk's Guide to Illusions
#4
roy_kramka
May 06, 2008 22:29:53 You might consider a three level dip in Swashbuckler to improve your combat prowess and improve your hit points.
#5
kobold_esq
May 06, 2008 23:57:12
You might consider a three level dip in Swashbuckler to improve your combat prowess and improve your hit points.

Sure, if you want to intentionally become inferior at your two main schticks, that'd be a great idea.

...
#6
roy_kramka
May 07, 2008 1:00:49
Sure, if you want to intentionally become inferior at your two main schticks, that'd be a great idea.

Or if you feel compelled to do more than hide in a corner during every fight...

There is more to the game than pure character optimization. Some people like the idea of being proficient at lots of things as opposed to being specialized in a few things and worthless in all others. If the former is the case for the TC, then Swashbuckler is worth his consideration.
#7
crimsondeath
May 07, 2008 1:20:07
Or if you feel compelled to do more than hide in a corner during every fight...

What do you think his spells are for? Plus, he is proficient in the shortsword, shortbow, and rapier if he really wants to fight; there aren't many more martial weapons that will serve a Beguiler better. Swashbuckler also won't give him any new armor proficiencies.

Really, 3d10 HD is only going to give him about six extra HP (eight if one of them is at first level, which it probably won't be since he'll probably want the Beguiler's skill points). Swashbuckler 3/Beguiler 17 only ends up with a +11 BAB, as compared to +10 BAB for Beguiler 20. Weapon Finesse is just a feat, and by staying in Swashbuckler long enough for Insightful Strike, he gives up level 9 spells (like Dominate Monster, Mass Hold Monster, and Time Stop). Probably the best thing he'd get out of it is +2 to Fort saves and +2 to Reflex saves (in exchange for -1 to Will saves).

Seriously, it's not worth it. Multiclassing like that just doesn't work very well for spellcasters.

Now, Beguiler 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 might be worth considering, but Wizard is a better spellcaster base.

If you want to go full caster, I'd suggest a Mindbender dip at character level 7 to push back your second Advanced Learning until you gain level 4 spells (which can help qualify for Shadowcraft Mage sooner, if you want to go that direction, or just grab a better spell).
#8
mishennikara
May 07, 2008 1:23:13 Multiclassing is even worse for beguilers. Besides chances are youll be feinting every chance you get for cloaked and surprise casting...so hopefully most everything you some in contact with wont be able to do a whole lot to you.
#9
roy_kramka
May 07, 2008 21:16:00 CrimsonDeath, you are making a very big assumption in your argument. Its true that at 20th level, the character would miss out on the 9th level spells, but how many characters survive (both in and out of game) to grow from 1st level to 20th level?
#10
methanegranola
May 07, 2008 21:21:13 beguilers are weak, play pun pun!

just kidding

i always liked playing the beguiler and abusing the hell out of whelm and all his "sneak attack" like abilities, you drop the CR and increase the power of your whelm and overwhelm at higher levels, but then that seems the be a pretty standard way of playing them... and your boned if you have to fight undead, but i guess thats the case for all beguilers...
#11
crimsondeath
May 07, 2008 23:09:30
CrimsonDeath, you are making a very big assumption in your argument. Its true that at 20th level, the character would miss out on the 9th level spells, but how many characters survive (both in and out of game) to grow from 1st level to 20th level?

Okay, let's scale it back to 10th level.

By taking three Swashbuckler levels, the two best weapon proficiencies you're getting are still the Longbow and Kukri, not much better than the Shortbow and Shortsword/Rapier. You still don't get any new armor proficiencies. Weapon Finesse is still just a feat. You still only get +6 BAB instead of +5. You're giving up Cloaked Casting (+2 vs. SR), Still Spell, level 5 spells (like Break Enchantment, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, and Seeming) and level 4 spells (like Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility, and Solid Fog) to add your Intelligence modifier to melee damage rolls. You still only gain about 6 HP and lose 6 skill points (or gain 8 HP and lose 12 skill points), and get +2 Fort and +1 Reflex for -1 Will.

I'm still not seeing the huge benefit, and it's actually looking like a worse tradeoff than the level 20 character made.

(Note that if someone wants to play a Swashbuckler/Beguiler, I won't stop him. But if someone asks for advice on a Beguiler and someone else suggests Swashbuckler levels, I think it's only fair to point out what he's giving up, and what he's getting in exchange. And as long as I'm doing that, I may as well throw in my opinion about whether it's a good idea.)

and your boned if you have to fight undead, but i guess thats the case for all beguilers...

That's when it pays off to know how your Illusions work-- Figments and Shadows still affect undead just fine. Also, Beguilers get a bit of crowd control (Obscuring Mist, Glitterdust, Slow, etc) and some buffs (Blur, Haste, Greater Invisibility, etc). Battles against undead, plants, vermin, and constructs are the time for a Beguiler to drop back to a support role and help the other characters shine. And, of course, a Shadowcraft Mage can just blast them with shadow illusions.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 blazanar May 06, 2008 14:28:42	I wanted to make a beguiler but i had never played them before. If anyone can give me any good ideas on how to make a great and most useful and succesful beuguiler thanks
#2 crimsondeath May 06, 2008 15:30:16	Shadowcraft Mage (from Races of Stone) is a great Gnome Beguiler prestiege class. Other than that, I'd encourage you to learn the limitations of your Illusion spells... and push them. Get everything you can out of them.
#3 anansi May 06, 2008 21:16:04	CrimsonDeath is right, illusions can be ridiculously versatile and powerful when used intelligently and creatively. That being said, here are some useful links from the Character Optimization Boards: The New Beguiler Handbook - The most recently written one Handbook to building a strong Beguiler - Lots of good tips here. Beguiler Handbook - This is the older version of the Beguiler Handbook Shadowcraft Magickery: Shadowcraft Illusionist = Killer Gnome! Shadowcraft Mage Handbook General Illusion Magic: Treantmonk's Guide to Illusions
#4 roy_kramka May 06, 2008 22:29:53	You might consider a three level dip in Swashbuckler to improve your combat prowess and improve your hit points.
#5 kobold_esq May 06, 2008 23:57:12	You might consider a three level dip in Swashbuckler to improve your combat prowess and improve your hit points. Sure, if you want to intentionally become inferior at your two main schticks, that'd be a great idea. ...
#6 roy_kramka May 07, 2008 1:00:49	Sure, if you want to intentionally become inferior at your two main schticks, that'd be a great idea. Or if you feel compelled to do more than hide in a corner during every fight... There is more to the game than pure character optimization. Some people like the idea of being proficient at lots of things as opposed to being specialized in a few things and worthless in all others. If the former is the case for the TC, then Swashbuckler is worth his consideration.
#7 crimsondeath May 07, 2008 1:20:07	Or if you feel compelled to do more than hide in a corner during every fight... What do you think his spells are for? Plus, he is proficient in the shortsword, shortbow, and rapier if he really wants to fight; there aren't many more martial weapons that will serve a Beguiler better. Swashbuckler also won't give him any new armor proficiencies. Really, 3d10 HD is only going to give him about six extra HP (eight if one of them is at first level, which it probably won't be since he'll probably want the Beguiler's skill points). Swashbuckler 3/Beguiler 17 only ends up with a +11 BAB, as compared to +10 BAB for Beguiler 20. Weapon Finesse is just a feat, and by staying in Swashbuckler long enough for Insightful Strike, he gives up level 9 spells (like Dominate Monster, Mass Hold Monster, and Time Stop). Probably the best thing he'd get out of it is +2 to Fort saves and +2 to Reflex saves (in exchange for -1 to Will saves). Seriously, it's not worth it. Multiclassing like that just doesn't work very well for spellcasters. Now, Beguiler 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 might be worth considering, but Wizard is a better spellcaster base. If you want to go full caster, I'd suggest a Mindbender dip at character level 7 to push back your second Advanced Learning until you gain level 4 spells (which can help qualify for Shadowcraft Mage sooner, if you want to go that direction, or just grab a better spell).
#8 mishennikara May 07, 2008 1:23:13	Multiclassing is even worse for beguilers. Besides chances are youll be feinting every chance you get for cloaked and surprise casting...so hopefully most everything you some in contact with wont be able to do a whole lot to you.
#9 roy_kramka May 07, 2008 21:16:00	CrimsonDeath, you are making a very big assumption in your argument. Its true that at 20th level, the character would miss out on the 9th level spells, but how many characters survive (both in and out of game) to grow from 1st level to 20th level?
#10 methanegranola May 07, 2008 21:21:13	beguilers are weak, play pun pun! just kidding i always liked playing the beguiler and abusing the hell out of whelm and all his "sneak attack" like abilities, you drop the CR and increase the power of your whelm and overwhelm at higher levels, but then that seems the be a pretty standard way of playing them... and your boned if you have to fight undead, but i guess thats the case for all beguilers...
#11 crimsondeath May 07, 2008 23:09:30	CrimsonDeath, you are making a very big assumption in your argument. Its true that at 20th level, the character would miss out on the 9th level spells, but how many characters survive (both in and out of game) to grow from 1st level to 20th level? Okay, let's scale it back to 10th level. By taking three Swashbuckler levels, the two best weapon proficiencies you're getting are still the Longbow and Kukri, not much better than the Shortbow and Shortsword/Rapier. You still don't get any new armor proficiencies. Weapon Finesse is still just a feat. You still only get +6 BAB instead of +5. You're giving up Cloaked Casting (+2 vs. SR), Still Spell, level 5 spells (like Break Enchantment, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, and Seeming) and level 4 spells (like Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility, and Solid Fog) to add your Intelligence modifier to melee damage rolls. You still only gain about 6 HP and lose 6 skill points (or gain 8 HP and lose 12 skill points), and get +2 Fort and +1 Reflex for -1 Will. I'm still not seeing the huge benefit, and it's actually looking like a worse tradeoff than the level 20 character made. (Note that if someone wants to play a Swashbuckler/Beguiler, I won't stop him. But if someone asks for advice on a Beguiler and someone else suggests Swashbuckler levels, I think it's only fair to point out what he's giving up, and what he's getting in exchange. And as long as I'm doing that, I may as well throw in my opinion about whether it's a good idea.) and your boned if you have to fight undead, but i guess thats the case for all beguilers... That's when it pays off to know how your Illusions work-- Figments and Shadows still affect undead just fine. Also, Beguilers get a bit of crowd control (Obscuring Mist, Glitterdust, Slow, etc) and some buffs (Blur, Haste, Greater Invisibility, etc). Battles against undead, plants, vermin, and constructs are the time for a Beguiler to drop back to a support role and help the other characters shine. And, of course, a Shadowcraft Mage can just blast them with shadow illusions.