Hi all,
I've been gaming with the same (more or less) group of players for a year now. I get along with almost every one of the players, and really don't wish to leave the group. But increasingly lately I felt like I am being picked on unfairly by one of the players due to reasons he won't even discuss. And it's come to a point where I am considering whether or not I should even continue playing. I'd like your advice on how to handle this situation.
Mr. A -- the player in question
Mr. B -- alternate DM and Mr. A's friend
Mr. C -- current DM
1) By "picking on me" I mean this behavior continues incessantly and only towards me, both in and out of character. For example, he almost never objects to other players' behaviors, but every single battle plan I come up with he always have a bone to pick ("I refuse to listen to him 'cause he's a mage -- I'm just roleplaying!"). Out of character he makes downright insulting remarks towards me ("You're playing a mentally tortured character? What do you know about hardship? You probably still live with your parents rent-free." -- which isn't even true as I left home at 17 after suffering years of abuse).
I've tried to confront him both diplomatically and aggressively. But he simply refuses to acknowledge the conflict and basically ignores me. So I don't even know why this behavior persists. I have 2 theories: a) it's the alpha male mentality since he's at least 10 years older than the rest of us, and he preceives me as a threat, being the unofficial organizer of the group and generally the one to whom new players turn for help; b) he dislikes me due to my gender/ethnicity/orientation/social class/politics. He's very judgmental and outspoken about his values, some of which are downright biggotry.
2) To make matters worse, he is very close friends with another player whom alternates as DM (Mr. B). In fact, he relies on Mr. B for everything -- he refuses to read the rulebook or build his own character, and have the alt DM does all the work for him. It won't bother me so much if only that: a) Mr. B as DM did not give Mr. A's character god-like powers and make them by far the single most powerful character in the party -- using houserules and b) Mr. A did not keep critisicing my tactics when he knows nothing about the rules ("You read the rules, I read the fluff!"; "F**k the rules, I do what I want!")
For example, one time I suspected another player of cheating because he was using feats inappropriate to his level. All players but Mr. A agreed in private that Mr. C will audit this player's character sheet next time he plays dodgy. But when the time did come Mr. A just repeatedly proclaimed, "Hey he bought it, let him use it!" and made it impossible to ask for an audit without downright accusing this player of cheating. And we just had to let the issue go.
After the current campaign is over, Mr. B will again take over as DM. And I feel like maybe it'd be my time to quit. With the kind of favoritism he's shown in the past I doubt the game would be fun for me or fair for the other players.
Bottomline is, I believe I've done everything in my power to solve this conflict in a civilized manner. And I can confidently say the party will miss me more than they miss Mr. A. But I also don't want to look as if I am holding the party ransom by threatening to leave. What do you think I should do?
Speakeasy.
I think you should thank them all for a fun time, and leave. Don't make a big deal about it, don't make it personal, don't call anyone out. Take full responsibility (whether it's yours to take or not) and leave, without discussion. Don't leave in the middle of the game, but either email the group or let the DM know privately.
If you are asked to return, explain politely that you'd prefer not to, and honestly, but civily, state the reasons for your preference.
Centauri wrote:
Unless you want to raise hell in a fumming, highly vocal, and accusatory manner, you're behind the 8-ball on this one.
The other option is to simply end this one quickly, and then start up a new game. And when you do, you don't invite the asshats.
If the DM is playing favorites, you're screwed. And in a situation like that, with a problem player, I'd call that **** out.
See, I'm also behind the 8-Ball in that my playgroup isn't some random group of players rounded up from parts untold. They are my friends of many years. And possibly the closest (or only) friends I have in this city. If I can't play D&D with them, I'm at a loss for other opportunities.
So when **** happens, we deal with it. We let ourselves get mad. We argue. We try to act like men if we can. And then we move on. No appologies necessary unless there were threats or instances of physical violence.
And we've held together just fine. We don't always agree. But we've made it through so far without killing each other and we still have fun, so something worked.
EDIT: Also, if we have problem players we've invited in the past, we simply don't invite them for next time.
LaSpeakeasy wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Violence is a phenomenally bad idea in this and pretty much every other case. No game or group is worth assaulting someone. You can leave, so there is no excuse for resorting to violence.
Centauri wrote:
Phenomenally bad.
PrimeSonic wrote:
Question: Is it the four of you: yourself, Mr A, Mr B, and Mr C? Or are there other players not mentioned?
If it's the former (just the four of you), confrontation is not worth it. Just leave. Maybe you can convince Mr C to leave with you, I don't know.
If it's the latter, I would air your grievences to the rest of the group without Mr A or Mr B and even without Mr C knowing (via e-mail). Maybe others in the group are just as upset but do not want to incur Mr A's wrath. Worst case is no one responds or they say you are exaggerating at which point you know where they stand and you can just leave. Best case is you get some backup and then confront Mr A directly.
Thanks for the replies guys.
I'll try to address everyone so bear with me. The current group members are:
- Mr. A -- the playground bully.
- Mr. B -- alt. GM. Fiercely protective of Mr. A. Claiming to be my "friend" but gangs up on me on Mr. A's behalf. (He's NOT my friend).
- Mr. C -- current GM. Is aware of this and stood up for me multiple times without directly confronting Mr. A.
- Mr. D -- the aforementioned potential cheater. Plays elven paladin insisting on being lawful good while acting chaotic stupid. I won't miss him.
-- Mr. E -- new player to the system. Outspoken. Turns to me for advice.
-- Mr. F -- new player to the system. Generally chilled out guy that doesn't concern himself with any form of animosity. Turns to me for advice.
There were at least 3 previous attempts to bring the issue to the table. Like I said, when confronted Mr. A simply refuses to acknowledge his behavior and continues his behavior. When I turned to the others for support, Mr. B - supposedly my "friend" then - threw a hissy fit and accused me of trash talking.
So yeah, my options are exhausted. Mr. C, E, and F are sympathetic. But since they themselves are not the target of hostility I don't expect them to back me to the point of forcibly removing Mr. A. And anything short of that won't stop him. Not when he considers himself above the social protocols of mutual respect.
My town doesn't have big enough a gaming community. Mr. C and I are around long enough that we know most gaming groups in town. We couldn't make them either due to the quality of RP, or due to our schedules.
I should also mention we' ve lost good players in this group, players who ask me back to their new groups. But I was not able to make them due to work schedule.
What I can't accept is either appearing as the victim or the bully -- I may have been a victim when I was 10yr old, but not now. But if I kept pushing the issue the "pet's blame the victim" mentity may kick in (it alrdy has for Mr. B) and I'll lose the goodwill of others.
I always suspected leaving is the oy option. And I was really hoping someone would persuade me otherwise... Guess I just came full circle on that one. Oh well.
Speakeasy
It's been said here many times...no game > bad game. And there is the possibility that if you leave the group Mr A will turn on someone else. Maybe that is what it will take to get C, E, and F to join you in forming a new group - same day and time only without A, B, and D.
DaBeerds has given a third option, and it is a very good one: Take the 3 players who likes you and form a game. That makes 4, and it doesn't matter who is the DM. A very good campaign can be run with 3 players.
I have seen this problem a few times, and what needs to happen here is the DM needs to put a kabosh on the bullying. In my games, I catch a player doing this, he is warned. The second offense, he is gone. I simply won't stand for it, and your DM shouldn't either. Essentially, the DM is condoning bullying. When you depart, just point out that, in your absense, someone left in the group will be next as the DM and the player are BOTH being bullies.
Form your own group. Sure, that might mean a few weeks or a month or two without gaming, but you will get to do in your games what they are all about-- Have fun! If you aren't having fun, don't play. Btw, be sure that other players, not just in your group, are aware of this DM's and his friend's behavior. A little peer preasure could help them "see the light."
If the situation is truly as the OP described, a good thrashing on the bully sounds well deserved, and ironically, it might actually be doing him a favor.
However, don't do it. Your personal honor is worth fighting for, but it's not worth getting in legal trouble over a jerk like this when you have other options that will allow you to continue having fun playing the game you love. In this case I would, starting right now, today, this moment, recruit the other three players, leave this game, and start another. Do it now. That's how you can stand up ... by just not standing for it.
The only way you lose this situation is if you do nothing and continue to take the abuse. Leave that group with the rest of the people who aren't sociopaths, and never have anything to do with Mr. A. again. Forget about him. And if you can't get the others in a new game, well, no game > bad game.
I agree with everything Centuari said.
Be the better person and walk out clean.
LaSpeakeasy wrote:
Remember: no gaming >>>> bad gaming
I'm quite surprised that the other players aren't backing you up despite being "sympathetic." We all know what bullying looks like, and just watching it happen in front of you is nearly as bad as doing it yourself. The group should simply not be standing for this. You really should just remove yourself from the situation. We play this game for fun, and there is no fun to be had here.
I am also completely floored that someone would suggest violence as an answer. WORST. ADVICE. EVER. It would only escalate the situation and has never, ever "put a bully in his place" outside of maybe cartoons or stupid movies.
You are talking about what you are doing with your precious free time. There is no sense in continuing with a game that is causing you anything other than enjoyment on a regular basis. You can find something else to do with your time. If you can't find other players for a new game, try gaming online. Try Play by Post.
If you have talked to the guy one on one out of game and he insists on being a jerk to you, don't be around him. Life is way to short to spend time with people who are jerks in general, much less when you are doing things you want to enjoy.
You are not lossing and he is not winning if you walk away congenially. He's still a jerk and you are a better man for it. In life, you are the winner.
To sum it up (aka tl;dr): I third the sentiment that no gaming is far better than bad gaming.
Best of luck, we all wish you a good resolution and happy gaming in your future,
TjD
Off topic
Scatterbrained wrote:
PrimeSonic wrote:
Scatterbrained wrote:
PrimeSonic wrote:
"In my case, this person has a superiority complex. He believes that as the oldest, most established person of the bunch, he should lead the gaming table as he does his company."
Actually, he IS WHIMPY. Superiority complexes come from the need to be perceived as superior. Outside, he may put up a good front, but inside he is weak-- very weak and very fragile. After all, if you have to tell people how superior you are, you probably aren't.
That aside, I still think you might want to leave the group. Not so much for the bully, which is bad enough, but for the complacent "friends" you have that let him get away with it. It should be noted that real friends would not let that happen at the table, or anywhere else for that matter. Heck, I don't even know you, but if one of my players did that to you, I would be on him like a ton of bricks.
About violence. Yeah, it isn't the best option, but at the same time it can have merits. What many people forget is that many bullies use today's political correctness to their advantage in that they know that violence won't be advocated since that isn't "PC." You don't have to get violent, but I do recommend you put a few points in intimidate.
Should you choose not to leave the group, that's cool, but don't back down. Don't let him play the "superiority card." To be sure, this will cause arguments. That is what you want, for it will be THEN that the DM and the other players might step in and stop it just so they can play. The trick is, don't egg or goad him on. Let HIM initiate the arguments and be the bully he is. Sit back and get some popcorn and your favorite beverage. Let him show his true colors to all. Should they opt for him over you, then you have your answer-- get away from those jerks. More than likely, he will be the one asked to leave or be forced to knock it off.
LaSpeakeasy wrote:
Scatterbrained wrote:
In the context of the playground, I'd recommend being as physically violent as possible, blowing a fuse and lashing in a fit of rage where your "flight or flight" switch is in full-fight. Putting up resistance makes it so you stop being a target. It's the only thing that I've seen actually work. (Worked for me each time)
Just tell the DM you're not willing to deal with A anymore, and since he's presumably going to continue showing up, you aren't.
You either leave, and don't have to deal with the guy anymore, or the DM kicks A out of his own volition.
It's entirely possible the DM doesn't know quite how much you're bothered by it.
Hi guys,
Thanks for all the advice + encouragement. All are appreciated.
Just a quick update. After an incident involving A basically telling me - in the middle of a sentence - to shut the f**k up so he could start talking, I've decided I won't even wait til the campaign's over and had to get out. This is the message I sent to everyone in my group:
Title: No Gaming > Unpleasant Gaming
Hey fellow XXXs,
I would like to inform you that I'm taking a break from our Sunday gaming get-togethers.
I try to help make every session fair, respectful, and most importantly, fun for everyone. Unfortunately I have been noticing – and deliberately ignoring – the constant flow of less-than-kind remarks directed at me personally. Some of us make it quite clear that I have overstayed my welcome.
While I could have acted out and fought back, this is not a competition and I’m not here to win. Even if I did win it wouldn't be fun for me. Withdrawal rather than engagement seems the more graceful and dignified option.
Thank you all regardless for all the fun Sunday afternoons. Hope I get to game with some of you pretty soon.
XOXO
svendj wrote:
"Having been both victim and attacker (I was young and only knew to copy how I was treated) of this type of petty abuse, I think I really shouldn't expect them to speak up on my behalf. Unless they've personally lived it, it's not their fight, they are not the target and therefore it's not their problem..."
If the victim is my friend, it becomes my problem. Friends support and stick up for each other. That is what friends do.
LaSpeakeasy wrote:
naganation wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Krusk wrote:
Everything I type has a tendancy to come off about 50X more agressive than I intend it to. I think it depends on the person. Some do way better over email than in person. I'm the opposite.
In my experience most people tend to do way better in person than in email. When you say something and the person takes it out of context, you can correct it right then vs. when/if they respond and are already upset.
Krusk wrote:
I think you made the right decision here. Bad gaming is definitely worse than no gaming.
You might also consider contacting Mr. C, Mr. E., and Mr. F to ask if they would like to start a new game with you (and not the others). From how you describe things, they won't miss the other three either.
@OP: You're getting a lot of good advice in this thread, namely, focus on your own happiness, your own goals, your own values, and your own desires. In your case, leaving may very well be the best option. However...
See, I approach conflict management a little differently than most, and by a little differently, I mean there are only really two differences, but they are major ones. First, I don't believe in conflict resolution, because that implies that conflict always ends, or that ending the conflict is always the preeminent goal. It doesn't, and it isn't, and professionals in the communications field will back me up left right and center on that one. The second difference, is that I'm not afraid of engaging in escalation and scorched earth tactics. I enjoy working with people. I'm a nice, jovial fellow. Told by many that I'm one of the easient people in the world to get along with. But having a reputation as a cut-throat, ruthless monster goes a long way toward people not screwing with you. Machiavelli and all that jazz. Were I in your position, I'd let this guy know I'd much rather work with him than against him, but if he persists, I would make sure he has zero fun whenever I am in his presence, and I would let him know that I get off on spoiling his day. I would turn that environment so overtly and aggressively hostile so fast that no one but me would want to be there. I'd probably start by insulting his values, and then making a convincing case for why he shouldn't be holding them. And I'd make every single session about that or something equally uncomfortable. Or I'd voice the possibility that he might not be straight. If he's a homophobe and you do that one time, he won't ever come back. If you've ever seen that episode of House where he's in the psychiatric institution playing basketball with mental patients, and how he attacks each one of their psychoses when the people in charge don't give him what he wants, that would give you a good idea of what i'm talking about.
But all that is the way of the dark side and generally shouldn't ever be done save for very rare and special circumstances, and without knowing your personal temperment, I can't advocate for anything but distancing yourself from the situation in this case. But again, just so you're aware, there are always other options...
having a reputation as a cut-throat, ruthless monster goes a long way toward people not screwing with you.
Thisishowitends wrote:
crimsyn wrote:
Since when is it wrong to tell people to be mindful of and respectful of other peoples' boundaries of offense? Or did you miss that in my post? All in all that's a pretty serious misconstruction of everything I've said.
Centauri wrote:
His email specifically was very well constructed.
I could still see people being upset he didn't have the conversation in person.
- "It hurts he couldn't tell us to our face"
- "What a coward, ran away and broke up over text"
- "Lol we chased that loser off" "
- "That sounds like he got some generic guy to write it for him in as non-offensive a way as possible. Did he even write this or did he have someone else do it, or steal one from someone who was quitting a company".
Nothing beats in person.
Krusk wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Krusk wrote:
I agree with Krusk on this one.
Face to face is better most of the time. The problem is that in this age of texting and online gaming many folks lack basic face to face communication skills. Some folks are passive-agressive and use online tools to try to get away with being jerks. As Krusk pointed out, developing good face to face skills and conflict resolution skills in person will do you a lifetime of good.
Be it online or face to face, bullying, passive aggressive behavior and all that should be called out and dealt with swiftly and fairly. You can't do that if you don't have communication skills or the courage to stand up to people.
Krusk wrote:
Kishri wrote:
dislikes a particular person to the point of never wanting to ever see them again the best thing to do is send an email.
Krusk wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Kishri wrote:
Fair enough. I can see your point for certain, specific circumstances.
I still feel way too many people use text as a passive-aggressive tactic to shed any accountability for their actions. They wouldn't say what they say to a person's face, but emboldened by the shields of distance and time they use text to belittle, place blame, whine, denigrate and such that they would never do in person.
I do have to wonder, what kind of gaming one is doing or what kind of group where face to face isn't safe? Online gaming I suppose, but I am old school where gaming is something done between friends or, at the very least, folks who can be civil with each other.
Kishri wrote:
But why can't you tell your friends that they are "unreasonable" to their face? Why is it necessary to hide from them? What is there to be afraid of?
I have dealt people in games that didn't like me, or my style of play, yet not once, did I ever feel threatened for my safety. Yes, things got tense, but so what? That is the nature of human contact. Maybe I have worked too long in the retail sector. I am so used to calous, hostile, uppity, arrogant, bullying, and some such attitudes that anything that goes on at a gaming table just isn't scary. Not in the least.
Again, I can see your point in certain specific circumstances where text is a better way, or in a case, like this forum, where there is no other way.
Though honestly, if someone has an issue with me, I would rather they tell me straight up, to my face. That way, I know where they stand; they know where I stand, and the issue might even get fixed. There is no chance of resolution when somebody basicly writes an email that goes, "I am leaving the group. The way this group plays sucks. Bye." That is pure cowardice, especially since most of these texts come out of the blue where the offended player(s)/DM contends the game is just fine all along. They say one thing and then do another, all because they don't have the courage and the civility to tell someone to their face.
Kishri wrote:
You mean to tell me a person who can bark out a string of orders to a DM, call him out on rules violations, flamboyantly play a Halfling rogue to a group of 8, demand spotlight time, brag about exploits, debate the fine points of obscure history and so on, all of a sudden can't find the wherewithal to tell a person something face to face? True, some folks are truly shy and struggle in a face to face situation, but they also struggle in the game. For most gamers, your assertion is simply not true. They love to talk. Why do some players avoid face to face communication when it is available? It come's down to that "Safe" you mention.
"Safe" as in avoiding conflict one's actions would cause if they had to deal with the issue in person. You are right, they're afraid. Sadly, in my experience, it is these fearful folks who most often start the issue in the first place. In short, they can dish it out, but can't take it.
Worse, by not talking about it, often not even by answering follow up texts, let alone face to face or phone, there is no way to address an issue. I have had folks send an email saying pretty much, "They're done with the game." I then talk to them via phone or with them in person and lo and behold the issue is fixed. Not every chat equals success, but it is worth a try and if one simply sends a text and flees there is no hope at all.
The reason I assume that's all the above email says is because that's all it says. As far as the player deciding later to leave goes, no excuse. It's a coward's way out. There is an old term to describe those who say one thing and do another: Two faced. It didn't fly back in the day and it doesn't now.
Kishri wrote:
Kishri wrote:
Hi all,
I am surprised this thread had grown into the length it is now. It seems this is not just about me, but about a common experience that strikes a cord with so many of us. And I'm glad by sharing my "misfortune" discussion was encouraged. Hopefully some other bullied players will see this and gain some wisdom in dealing with the problem.
I feel like I owe an update/reply to all who took the time to pay attention to my story. So here goes:
1) I had to “break up” over email 'cause it was a snap decision. It was after a particular unpleasant episode where A halted the session to yell at me 'cause he needed to talk (but I wasn't even talking at the time). To “break up” in person meant I had to attend the next session. And I honestly couldn't bring myself to go at that point.
2) I'm not bothered by bully himself. I don't even know what I've done to make him think I deserve the treatment I got but I don't care by this point. Whatever it is it's due to his own inadequacy, not mine.
What I'm still raw about 1 month down the line was the inaction of the other players. Everyone told me it's a shame to see me go. The GM promised he would have a talk with the A & B in question and asked me back. But no one actually took any action(as far as I know of anyway). Granted they have not been gaming for a few weeks due to the holidays, and they might still do that. But the bottom line was, I would've confronted the bully on behalf of any one of them. But they wouldn't do it for me.
Even tho I didn't ask them to intervene (except for B, who promptly dissed me back). And I maintained that I am fine with it. It bothers me a bit more than I'm willing to admit to them, hearing them texting (I am still admin to their SMS group) about how fun the gaming is every week.
3) As for why I didn't attempt to start a new group by now. Truth is, I'm tired from having started this one. Every one of them started out as friends with me. The GM suggested it, and I personally persuaded my friends to form this group. I was the one who had everyone's cell phones, updated the web page, and clarified rules with the newbies. I don't have this much energy to invest to another game this immediately.
I wasn't doing it to please anyone. I just really wanted to get the game going 'cause I wanted to play. Which made it even more raw for me 'cause they would rather play with a bully that doesn't even know what the dice rolls mean than make an effort to keep me in the group.
4) Re: calling out players for being "gay": look dude, if it worked for you in the past then by all means keep doing it. I'm gay. And I'm not offended by your advice, as long as it doesn't actually come from a homophobic motive. I wouldn't do it myself tho. It's pointless to fight bigotry with more bigotry.
I remember having a similar situation when 4th Edition came out, the DM was very impartial and said: "He is just roleplaying, don't take it personally, still all the trouble happens in-game, just in the your Character Sheet.
Is really is a pain in the ass like situation, b/c you want to play peacefully and have fun, it can even be stressful, I didn't thought it too much, and take my leave.
PD: In-game both characters have trouble and b/c of that out of game too, (me and the nasty guy), I resolve everything back stabbing his character with a sneak attack and I said "I'm just role-playing!!" hahahahaah 
BUT, I don're recommend this, in my case the player took it, and created another character, he take it cool thou, but that's why I ALWAYS recommend to play the game WITH FRIENDS!
OP, if you're still bothered and raw about his, maybe in the future you'll consider directly confronting those giving you grief instead of bailing and letting the resentment fester. Even if your confrontation fails to resolve the problem in a manner acceptable to you, at least you can tell yourself that you gave it your best shot so it will be easier to make a clean break.
I would say it's never too late to do something about it, but after a month, well, yeah, maybe in this case it's best to just move on and try to forget about it.
But if you find it continues to bother you and you're having problems getting over this drama you had with others, then remember that the next time you have a similar situation. Confront problems directly and you'll usually feel better about things, most importantly, yourself.
Oh yeah, and one more important thing ... you said you quit and walked away. So why are you still reading their texts? That's what we call being a "bad quitter," or "bad ender."
Who's house do you play at?
Sounds awful.
Say you feel you're spoiling their special fun by staying and will be moving on.
I mean, I've left campaigns where I liked the people and nobody did any of this stuff - it's just the module used was so boring.
I would in no way stay for this even to the end of it.