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Best criminal mastermind class?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
monsterchow
Apr 25, 2009 11:50:10 I want to make a class who is like a master infiltrator. He gets in steals whatever, he gets out, using violence only when necessary. He should have high theivery, stealth and bluff. I just made a bard multiclassed into ranger. When I get him to level 2, I'll multiclass into rogue as well. I'm a gnome, so I'm veeery sneaky. Basically, being a gnome and taking ranger got me stealth, and taking rogue will get me thievery. I was just wondering, are there any better options for criminal mastermind?
#2
misterarcane
Apr 25, 2009 12:21:24 You can get thievery by grabing the Warlock feat... and something like eyebite will go very well with your concept.
#3
NullOperative
Apr 25, 2009 12:22:17 The most basic way to do what you want is to just play a rogue. Your ability scores will be more focused, most likely, and the rogue gets Stealth and Thievery automatically and can choose Bluff as a class skill. Athletics is also useful for those second-story jobs.

If you're worried about how sneak attack mixes with your killing, keep in mind that you can always choose to just knock an enemy out. Rather than stabbing them in the back, you give them a hard hit to the back of the head with your hilt.

When I first read "criminal mastermind" in the thread title, I immediately thought of the Guildmaster Thief paragon path (MP 93) from Martial Power. That adds more of a teamwork aspect to the rogue. What it sounds like you're after, however, would be better covered by the Players Handbook paragon path called, oddly enough, Master Infiltrator (PH 127-128). You could also take either of these paths as a bard with a rogue multiclass feat, but you might find yourself spread thin on ability scores since the attacks from these paths use Dexterity.
#4
lokai
Apr 25, 2009 12:31:39 hmm considering it a moment with out going in and grabbing my books or opening character builder, i think... what you described wasn't so much a criminal mastermind, as much as a master thief. Least in my own opinion a criminal mastermind, would be the guy sat behind the scenes directing his minions to fight while he sat nice and safe in his office.

That being said if your looking for a master thief are two ways i could think of doing it. Doing a straight rogue who uses his natural skill to by pass others and take what he wants. However i stopped for a second and reconsidered! now not sure since not got my book and have yet to play a wizard BUT if you think about it, a wizard with stealth and thievery and a decent dex could probably pull this off amazingly well! using his stealth, invisibility and other spells(like sleep, and even just his cantrips) to distract, disable and get around people with out being seen and if he is seen he can simply disable them and run away(after all thieves are never usually kind to stand and fight fair!). Could also MC rogue or do a rogue and MC wizard either way i think this concept makes most interesting thief type.

Now on top of that! i'd say take the doppleganger race out of MM book, and now you do get really interesting! so now you could copy people to walk past check points or gather information, and really cause some havok! grab bluff skill, thievery and stealth and your master thief is ready to go!
#5
Alex_
Apr 25, 2009 12:35:41
I want to make a class who is like a master infiltrator. He gets in steals whatever, he gets out, using violence only when necessary. He should have high theivery, stealth and bluff. I just made a bard multiclassed into ranger. When I get him to level 2, I'll multiclass into rogue as well. I'm a gnome, so I'm veeery sneaky. Basically, being a gnome and taking ranger got me stealth, and taking rogue will get me thievery. I was just wondering, are there any better options for criminal mastermind?

There's a cat burglar themed class for the Rogue. A couple of them actually. If your guy is about getting in, disabling traps, stealing stuff, and getting out with as little collateral damage as possible, these are probably your best bets.

A Gnome Rogue, maybe with some feypact Warlock would be very good at hiding and sneaking around. As mentioned earlier, Doppleganger is alos a great choice, as is the Goblin.
#6
monsterchow
Apr 25, 2009 13:49:44 Sadly, rogues are strikers. They rely on strength and dexterity. They're not extremely good for master thieves. Gnomes suck at playing them.
#7
Arbitrary_Aardvark
Apr 25, 2009 14:11:42
Sadly, rogues are strikers. They rely on strength and dexterity. They're not extremely good for master thieves. Gnomes suck at playing them.

They are strikers, in combat. What do you want a thief to do in combat? Be a defender (keeping other people safe?) A leader (buffing other people?) A controller? (That said, there are controller and leader builds which lend themselves to being a thief.)

Rogues do not rely on strength and dexterity. They rely on dexterity and one other attribute. A brutish rogue benefits from a high strength, and there are a couple of builds which benefit from high charisma. Remember, all the rogue powers use DEX bonus for both to hit and damage, so the only thing you lose by not having a high strength is on opportunity attacks.

Gnomes make awesome rogues. They get a +2 to Charisma, which benefits a lot of the powers, and is great if you take Artful Dodger. They get a +2 to INT, which means that a 13 INT is relatively cheap, so that opens up feats like "Linguist" and "Jack-of-all-trades." You don't need a race that gives you a +2 in your prime stat. They also can get Mage Hand and Prestidigitation via a feat, ghost sound for free, and with "fade away" can often get out of danger quickly.

I just built a gnome rogue. I didn't use my usual stat buy (nothing higher than a 16, to spread things around), but got the following:
STR - 8
CON - 10
DEX - 18
INT - 13
WIS - 10
CHA - 16
I gave him streetwise, acrobatics, perception, and intimidate
I took the "Fey Trickster" feat to get Mage Hand and Prestidigitation.

For powers I took: Sly flourish (where I do +7 damage since both DEX and CHA add), and Piercing Strike, which is a DEX vs. REF attack. My encounter power is Foxes Gambit. Because I took Artful Dodger, if I hit I can shift four squares. My daily power is Blinding Barrage. If I hit the targets are blinded, so that can make it easier to get out of the way.

The character has mostly good defenses (16 AC, 16 REF, 13 WIL, but only 10 FORT.)

I think its a pretty good thief. (If it were my character, I would probably go with a lower CHA and increase my CON a little.)
#8
doneisi
Apr 25, 2009 14:22:07
Sadly, rogues are strikers. They rely on strength and dexterity. They're not extremely good for master thieves. Gnomes suck at playing them.

Rogue's primary stat is dex so it has great stealth and thievery and have Cha as a secondary stat, so they have good bluff and diplomacy. Rouges don't need strength. Also, gnomes make great rouges, their racial ability is free combat advantage once an encounter, they have one relevant stat increase and their reactive stealth ability can be helpful if your initiative roll sucks. Rouges have a ton of utilities that help with apprehending valuables like fleeting ghost.
#9
Alter_Boy
Apr 25, 2009 15:15:33 Doppelganger Bard. Change your appearance at will helps you avoid detection. Bards get free-multiclassing, letting you pick up any skills the Bard needs. The Doppelganger's stats help you sweet talk peopleand know things the average Rogue wouldn't. Finally, Bards can use their Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate to get their way.
#10
Alex_
Apr 26, 2009 1:12:02
Sadly, rogues are strikers.

Strikers that automatically get Thievery (for disabling traps) and Stealth (for sneaking around) as trained skills for free. Not to mention access to Rogue paragon paths like Master Spy, Hoard Raider, and Master Infiltrator give bonuses to the kinds of skills and activities someone who likes to sneak into places and steal stuff would want.

They rely on strength and dexterity. They're not extremely good for master thieves. Gnomes suck at playing them.

Strength is a secondary stat for Rogues. With the existence of sneak attack and all the powers that add Dex instead of Str to damage, the Rogue is the one martial class most geared towards Small sized characters or those with lower Strength scores.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 monsterchow Apr 25, 2009 11:50:10	I want to make a class who is like a master infiltrator. He gets in steals whatever, he gets out, using violence only when necessary. He should have high theivery, stealth and bluff. I just made a bard multiclassed into ranger. When I get him to level 2, I'll multiclass into rogue as well. I'm a gnome, so I'm veeery sneaky. Basically, being a gnome and taking ranger got me stealth, and taking rogue will get me thievery. I was just wondering, are there any better options for criminal mastermind?
#2 misterarcane Apr 25, 2009 12:21:24	You can get thievery by grabing the Warlock feat... and something like eyebite will go very well with your concept.
#3 NullOperative Apr 25, 2009 12:22:17	The most basic way to do what you want is to just play a rogue. Your ability scores will be more focused, most likely, and the rogue gets Stealth and Thievery automatically and can choose Bluff as a class skill. Athletics is also useful for those second-story jobs. If you're worried about how sneak attack mixes with your killing, keep in mind that you can always choose to just knock an enemy out. Rather than stabbing them in the back, you give them a hard hit to the back of the head with your hilt. When I first read "criminal mastermind" in the thread title, I immediately thought of the Guildmaster Thief paragon path (MP 93) from Martial Power. That adds more of a teamwork aspect to the rogue. What it sounds like you're after, however, would be better covered by the Players Handbook paragon path called, oddly enough, Master Infiltrator (PH 127-128). You could also take either of these paths as a bard with a rogue multiclass feat, but you might find yourself spread thin on ability scores since the attacks from these paths use Dexterity.
#4 lokai Apr 25, 2009 12:31:39	hmm considering it a moment with out going in and grabbing my books or opening character builder, i think... what you described wasn't so much a criminal mastermind, as much as a master thief. Least in my own opinion a criminal mastermind, would be the guy sat behind the scenes directing his minions to fight while he sat nice and safe in his office. That being said if your looking for a master thief are two ways i could think of doing it. Doing a straight rogue who uses his natural skill to by pass others and take what he wants. However i stopped for a second and reconsidered! now not sure since not got my book and have yet to play a wizard BUT if you think about it, a wizard with stealth and thievery and a decent dex could probably pull this off amazingly well! using his stealth, invisibility and other spells(like sleep, and even just his cantrips) to distract, disable and get around people with out being seen and if he is seen he can simply disable them and run away(after all thieves are never usually kind to stand and fight fair!). Could also MC rogue or do a rogue and MC wizard either way i think this concept makes most interesting thief type. Now on top of that! i'd say take the doppleganger race out of MM book, and now you do get really interesting! so now you could copy people to walk past check points or gather information, and really cause some havok! grab bluff skill, thievery and stealth and your master thief is ready to go!
#5 Alex_ Apr 25, 2009 12:35:41	I want to make a class who is like a master infiltrator. He gets in steals whatever, he gets out, using violence only when necessary. He should have high theivery, stealth and bluff. I just made a bard multiclassed into ranger. When I get him to level 2, I'll multiclass into rogue as well. I'm a gnome, so I'm veeery sneaky. Basically, being a gnome and taking ranger got me stealth, and taking rogue will get me thievery. I was just wondering, are there any better options for criminal mastermind? There's a cat burglar themed class for the Rogue. A couple of them actually. If your guy is about getting in, disabling traps, stealing stuff, and getting out with as little collateral damage as possible, these are probably your best bets. A Gnome Rogue, maybe with some feypact Warlock would be very good at hiding and sneaking around. As mentioned earlier, Doppleganger is alos a great choice, as is the Goblin.
#6 monsterchow Apr 25, 2009 13:49:44	Sadly, rogues are strikers. They rely on strength and dexterity. They're not extremely good for master thieves. Gnomes suck at playing them.
#7 Arbitrary_Aardvark Apr 25, 2009 14:11:42	Sadly, rogues are strikers. They rely on strength and dexterity. They're not extremely good for master thieves. Gnomes suck at playing them. They are strikers, in combat. What do you want a thief to do in combat? Be a defender (keeping other people safe?) A leader (buffing other people?) A controller? (That said, there are controller and leader builds which lend themselves to being a thief.) Rogues do not rely on strength and dexterity. They rely on dexterity and one other attribute. A brutish rogue benefits from a high strength, and there are a couple of builds which benefit from high charisma. Remember, all the rogue powers use DEX bonus for both to hit and damage, so the only thing you lose by not having a high strength is on opportunity attacks. Gnomes make awesome rogues. They get a +2 to Charisma, which benefits a lot of the powers, and is great if you take Artful Dodger. They get a +2 to INT, which means that a 13 INT is relatively cheap, so that opens up feats like "Linguist" and "Jack-of-all-trades." You don't need a race that gives you a +2 in your prime stat. They also can get Mage Hand and Prestidigitation via a feat, ghost sound for free, and with "fade away" can often get out of danger quickly. I just built a gnome rogue. I didn't use my usual stat buy (nothing higher than a 16, to spread things around), but got the following: STR - 8 CON - 10 DEX - 18 INT - 13 WIS - 10 CHA - 16 I gave him streetwise, acrobatics, perception, and intimidate I took the "Fey Trickster" feat to get Mage Hand and Prestidigitation. For powers I took: Sly flourish (where I do +7 damage since both DEX and CHA add), and Piercing Strike, which is a DEX vs. REF attack. My encounter power is Foxes Gambit. Because I took Artful Dodger, if I hit I can shift four squares. My daily power is Blinding Barrage. If I hit the targets are blinded, so that can make it easier to get out of the way. The character has mostly good defenses (16 AC, 16 REF, 13 WIL, but only 10 FORT.) I think its a pretty good thief. (If it were my character, I would probably go with a lower CHA and increase my CON a little.)
#8 doneisi Apr 25, 2009 14:22:07	Sadly, rogues are strikers. They rely on strength and dexterity. They're not extremely good for master thieves. Gnomes suck at playing them. Rogue's primary stat is dex so it has great stealth and thievery and have Cha as a secondary stat, so they have good bluff and diplomacy. Rouges don't need strength. Also, gnomes make great rouges, their racial ability is free combat advantage once an encounter, they have one relevant stat increase and their reactive stealth ability can be helpful if your initiative roll sucks. Rouges have a ton of utilities that help with apprehending valuables like fleeting ghost.
#9 Alter_Boy Apr 25, 2009 15:15:33	Doppelganger Bard. Change your appearance at will helps you avoid detection. Bards get free-multiclassing, letting you pick up any skills the Bard needs. The Doppelganger's stats help you sweet talk peopleand know things the average Rogue wouldn't. Finally, Bards can use their Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate to get their way.
#10 Alex_ Apr 26, 2009 1:12:02	Sadly, rogues are strikers. Strikers that automatically get Thievery (for disabling traps) and Stealth (for sneaking around) as trained skills for free. Not to mention access to Rogue paragon paths like Master Spy, Hoard Raider, and Master Infiltrator give bonuses to the kinds of skills and activities someone who likes to sneak into places and steal stuff would want. They rely on strength and dexterity. They're not extremely good for master thieves. Gnomes suck at playing them. Strength is a secondary stat for Rogues. With the existence of sneak attack and all the powers that add Dex instead of Str to damage, the Rogue is the one martial class most geared towards Small sized characters or those with lower Strength scores.