Betrayed! and I need help separating IC from OOC. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Betrayed! and I need help separating IC from OOC.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kistra
Jul 31, 2009 11:11:04 So I've been playing my first in person game for about a year now. I played in one online game for about a year before that, so I'm not a complete noob but I haven't been playing for anywhere near as long as anyone else in my group.

Among the players there are myself and my husband, another couple and another guy. The other three were playing in the same game with the same DM before my husband and I joined.

Basically my character's entire goal for about the last 6 months has been to reform a character we are going to call D. It seemed to be working, our last session went really well and it was actually the first time D sought out advice from my character. And then last night D and his girlfriend's character turned the rest of us over to the BBEG.

IC my character doesn't actually know that D betrayed her b/c of the specifics of how it went down. D has also been our group leader and in the past has engineered selling my character into slavery and turning all of us in to the BBEG and in both cases he did so with an underlying plan that advanced all of our interests. I feel like IC my character would be trying to find D and get the group back together but noone else wants to do that b/c OOC we all know it would be futile/dangerous.

We also lost all of our gear including some stuff that we had done multiple session adventure arcs to find. The DM has offered to let us find replacements that just happen to be for sale from the next merchant we come across but the things we had were supposed to be hard to find. We were supposed to work for them.

It is still bothering me. I've been talking with the DM and he understands and he wouldn't have had it go down that way if he had more time to think about it. But it turns out that the other couples' characters were never meant to be long term characters. D was supposed to have run away to be evil a long time ago and the girlfriend's character is admittedly not much fun to play (I've been wondering why she made that character for a while). The other couple emailed him yesterday morning with an idea and he let them go with it.

I know it really shouldn't bother me OOC but it does. I could call the player and talk to him but I don't know what I would say. In reality it does make some sense for his character to have done what he did. I also feel horrible b/c it bothered me that we were rescued by his new character.

My husband thinks I am completely overreacting. But the two characters that left were the only two characters my character trusted. My husband's character wants to collect the bounty on my character's head and the 5th character doesn't talk to my character anymore because each character thinks the other is an idiot.

I'm sort of considering having my current character walk away from the group and do her own thing and roll up a new character. But I have put a lot of work into my current character and I like her. That also won't solve any OOC issues. My DM is willing to work with almost anything I want to do.

tldr: My character got betrayed by another character and I'm unhappy OOC. Advice on how to let it go?
#2
CCS
Jul 31, 2009 12:02:08
tldr: My character got betrayed by another character and I'm unhappy OOC. Advice?

Yes. OOC, let it go. It's just a game. It's just how this particular story has developed. Consider it a surprise ending in a novel.
When you learn to do this you can do the most outragious, awefull, things to one anothers characters & have it not affect anyones OOC life.

In character? Well, how would your character handle this? Do that.
Maybe she does walk off to go find "D". Maybe your husbands character follows her seeking the bounty. And maybe that's all just story for another time....
#3
ironchef33
Jul 31, 2009 12:03:38 Hrm, well, if you want to take it back out on them IC, see if there is someway where your character would find out that D did in fact turn her in, then you'll have a good reason to plot against him.

This is why it's always hard to deal with "evil" characters, in my opinion.

Did the player for D reroll a new character? It seems to me that you were saved by Player of D's new character, if that's the case, maybe D can become a small villain in the campaign.

Try to avoid taking things IC out OOC, that's a bit overboard.
#4
Gurv
Jul 31, 2009 12:16:17 Read this article by Rich Berlew. The jist of it: don't let "but this is what I think my character would do" become an issue of "but this game isn't fun to play".
#5
rav514
Jul 31, 2009 12:29:48 Well, it sound like to me that d and his wife(?) decided they didnt like there characters anymore and needed a story reason to leave the group. THus you got betrayed. I would agree with your husband. Let it go. If you really dont like you characacter anymore, them say your going to hunt them down and kill them for the betrayal, leave the group and roll a new pc. Otherwise, either take the new gear find another way to get some.
#6
kistra
Jul 31, 2009 12:40:29 I know I need to let it go. I was trying to get advice on what sorts of things helped other people let it go.

And like I said, I spent 6 mos trying to redeem this character. My character wouldn't go kill him IC, but she would try to find him and keep trying to redeem him. I just feel like I would be dragging the plot in a wonky direction that no one else wants if I did that.
#7
rav514
Jul 31, 2009 14:17:46 Well, we really can't help you to much here. You have to ask yourself if your character has any reason to travel with the party besides redeeming d. If not, chase after him and make a new character.

Since your asking how i got over being betrayed;
1st time: Killing the guy. Though this is misleading. Some one got the bright idea that we should play paranoia. Which is basically a game where you think everyone is out to A: kill you; or B: Betray and get you killed. So pretty much everyone died a few times.

Latest time: Playing dark sun; The rest of my party got enslaved by a caravan leader who we were working for. So i burnt half of the caravan down in the middle of the desert and am currently leading a band of gith (bi-pedal carinvorious lizards) back to said caravan to finish the job. I dont like being betrayed. I let you know how the gith part goes in a couple of weeks.
#8
congzilla
Jul 31, 2009 14:21:35
I know I need to let it go. I was trying to get advice on what sorts of things helped other people let it go.

Remembering that its just a game always helps. If something that happens to your character upsets you ooc, your not playing your character.
#9
dmoore076
Jul 31, 2009 14:25:08 Kistra,

Thanks for posting. Here's my take: the fault lies with your DM on this one. You should try not to be upset with the other players. More on that in a second.

The DM should not allow evil, traitorous characters in the party in a game of Dungeons and Dragons unless ALL characters are evil and traitorous. Period. This is because you have gotten into THE classic situation when party members screw each other over: that fun is being ruined at the expense of drama or inter-party dynamics.

Now, there can be fun in inter-party tension. I am sure everyone has had experiences where two characters always seem to disagree with each other and constantly grumble at each about where to go and what to do or how to handle that ogre in the basement. That kind of thing is fine. However, it stops being fine when characters are hurt (i.e. losing gear, getting in actual game fights, truly upsetting people emotionally). What the DM allowed the other players to do is to hurt your character mechanically by taking away all your gear. And that's not acceptable. Players should not be allowed to mechanically hurt other players in Dungeons and Dragons. It's not that kind of game. Go play Paranoia or something if that's what you want.

So put the blame on the DM for allowing the players to do this, and try to get over it. Consider a different group or different DM if he continues allowing these players to do this to the group. Remember: the DM has control over the tone and flow of the game, and he should put his foot down with disruptive players.

Also one last thing. Stop trying to "redeem" this bad character. The kindest, most gentle priest in the world is not going to seek out the person who robs them and tries to sell them into slavery, and then chat with them. Unless you are trying to role-play sick co-dependency or some kind of psychosis you need to modify that character concept.

P.S. I know that your character doesn't know the specifics of the betrayal but I bet he/she can figure it out if the rest of the party was sold into slavery and "D" isn't right there with you.
#10
jutter
Jul 31, 2009 14:33:57 Never deny your feelings. If you feel bad, you feel bad. That does not mean you should make a big thing out of this though.

OOC, you were not betrayed. D&D is a game of mutual storytelling. Different people have different styles. My best bet is that no players at that table wanted (or even had the intention) to hurt your feelings. Chances are the guy is oblivious to the fact that he 'wronged' you. In that case there is no 'threat' that needs to be resolved. Thus, there is probably nothing you can gain by making a big thing out of it, but there are some things you can lose.

That does not mean the part of you that makes you feel bad is wrong. Apparently, that part screams for some attention. What does it mean? Perhaps it means you prefer a certain style of play that this player countered that particular evening. If that is the case, discuss it with the group after things have settled down. Maybe your gamegroup can grow through that discussion. But if you find that you can't turn those feelings into something constructive, put them aside. In that case they are important and shouldn't be denied, but your actions shouldn't be guided by them right now.

Last but not least: never reduce the fun of the actual people at the table over something as silly as 'what a fictional character would do'. If you enjoy playing this character but there is no reason for her to stay with the party, change the character a bit so it has a reason to stay with the party.

Good luck. I hope some of the replies can help you out.
#11
makeshiftwings
Jul 31, 2009 15:45:16 This is why whenever I DM, I make a point of stating up front that all the characters need to have some reason to want to support each other, and that no one is allowed to secretly want to betray the others.

For your situation, first, remember that the player probably didn't think it would hurt your feelings. Many players, especially new players, just love the idea of secret betrayal, because it seems like it will be a shocking plot twist. After you've been playing for a few years, it grows stale. I can't count the number of times someone new to D&D wanted to join my game and asked "Can I be a character who's secretly evil and betrays the other PC's at some point?" It's not because they're malicious; it's because betrayal is a great trope and popular in dramatic stories. It also usually seems really original and brilliant to the person who wants to do it, with them thinking the rest of the players would never see it coming. In my case, if I'm ever in a game where some player joins as a "temporary character", I assume right off the bat that he's going to betray us and join the bad guys at some point.

Your situation is why many DM's who have been running for a while will refuse to allow betrayals. The "surprise plot twist" that it brings just isn't worth the trouble it causes. At best it creates an interruption where players are coming and going or making new PC's, and at worst, it results in hurt feelings and people not wanting to play anymore. I say, chalk this up as a learning experience for your group. Now that you've got party betrayal out of your system, you can try to create new characters who actually have some reason to want to help each other out.

Maybe you should talk to your DM and group and agree that for the rest of the campaign, no one will be secretly evil or working to betray each other. It might seem like it's ruining the suspense a little bit, but you still have tons of options for an interesting story and relationship dynamics without everyone wanting to stab each other in the back. You can always get betrayed by NPC's if things are going too smoothly ;)
#12
chaosturtle
Aug 02, 2009 12:55:09 Honestly, I'd love something like this to happen. It'd end up being a great twist, and really sets the stage for a new villain. This is the one of the few perfect examples of a betrayal that isn't just a problem player...the fact that you're able to get so immersed in the game world really just goes to show that you have an excellent campaign going. Its pretty obvious these guys weren't problem players who went with the usual- lulz, I'm chaotic evil so it makes sense argument...they worked it out with the dm and let it become a big part of the story.

That being said, it is just a game and its very clear these people aren't just being problem players, so there's no reason to feel betrayed or anything, what happens in character, stays in character. If you're really having a hard time distinguishing ic from ooc, then stop playing immediately...it isn't healthy, and I don't think a new char would help. Might be better to take up a different, friendlier game that doesn't involve taking on the role of a character.
#13
glaive_21842
Aug 02, 2009 15:15:58 First, try to recognize it as an interesting plot point. As they say in eberron, "traditionally good aligned creatures may wind up opposed to the heroes, while well known agents of evil might provide assistance when its least expected".

From there, try to identify with their new characters IC. Creating good relations and plot elements with the new characters will help you forget about the old ones. However, if you don't want to forget about them, create a new plot based on it. You said that your character was essentially his mentor of sorts, so you could go with a sort of fallen student approach kinda like with Anakin Skywalker.

In the end, I guess I'm just saying to use this situation to your advantage. Sure betrayal sucks when it happens to your characters, but if you can take advantage of the plot possibilities presented, you may eventually find yourself glad that it happened.
#14
garner_adam
Aug 02, 2009 18:01:02
Read this article by Rich Berlew. The jist of it: don't let "but this is what I think my character would do" become an issue of "but this game isn't fun to play".

I really need to suggest to all the people I play with that they read that article carefully... very carefully.
#15
kistra
Aug 03, 2009 9:00:31 Thanks for all of your comments. Re-reading what I wrote and seeing all of your responses helped me phrase my concerns to the DM in a more coherent manner.

After talking a lot to the DM what bothers me more than the betrayal is the feeling that everything my character has done for the last six months has been completely wasted. We spent three sessions questing after a specific piece of equipment and lost it in the betrayal and now we the next merchant we see is going to have one for sale. It just doesn't feel the same.

As I said I have talked to the DM and he admitted that he didn't think through everything we would be losing (equipment and quest progress wise) and would have done things differently if he had time to think all of it through. He is a really good DM so I trust him to come up with something interesting to make it up to us.

This definitely isn't something I would leave the group over, I really enjoy the game.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kistra Jul 31, 2009 11:11:04	So I've been playing my first in person game for about a year now. I played in one online game for about a year before that, so I'm not a complete noob but I haven't been playing for anywhere near as long as anyone else in my group. Among the players there are myself and my husband, another couple and another guy. The other three were playing in the same game with the same DM before my husband and I joined. Basically my character's entire goal for about the last 6 months has been to reform a character we are going to call D. It seemed to be working, our last session went really well and it was actually the first time D sought out advice from my character. And then last night D and his girlfriend's character turned the rest of us over to the BBEG. IC my character doesn't actually know that D betrayed her b/c of the specifics of how it went down. D has also been our group leader and in the past has engineered selling my character into slavery and turning all of us in to the BBEG and in both cases he did so with an underlying plan that advanced all of our interests. I feel like IC my character would be trying to find D and get the group back together but noone else wants to do that b/c OOC we all know it would be futile/dangerous. We also lost all of our gear including some stuff that we had done multiple session adventure arcs to find. The DM has offered to let us find replacements that just happen to be for sale from the next merchant we come across but the things we had were supposed to be hard to find. We were supposed to work for them. It is still bothering me. I've been talking with the DM and he understands and he wouldn't have had it go down that way if he had more time to think about it. But it turns out that the other couples' characters were never meant to be long term characters. D was supposed to have run away to be evil a long time ago and the girlfriend's character is admittedly not much fun to play (I've been wondering why she made that character for a while). The other couple emailed him yesterday morning with an idea and he let them go with it. I know it really shouldn't bother me OOC but it does. I could call the player and talk to him but I don't know what I would say. In reality it does make some sense for his character to have done what he did. I also feel horrible b/c it bothered me that we were rescued by his new character. My husband thinks I am completely overreacting. But the two characters that left were the only two characters my character trusted. My husband's character wants to collect the bounty on my character's head and the 5th character doesn't talk to my character anymore because each character thinks the other is an idiot. I'm sort of considering having my current character walk away from the group and do her own thing and roll up a new character. But I have put a lot of work into my current character and I like her. That also won't solve any OOC issues. My DM is willing to work with almost anything I want to do. tldr: My character got betrayed by another character and I'm unhappy OOC. Advice on how to let it go?
#2 CCS Jul 31, 2009 12:02:08	tldr: My character got betrayed by another character and I'm unhappy OOC. Advice? Yes. OOC, let it go. It's just a game. It's just how this particular story has developed. Consider it a surprise ending in a novel. When you learn to do this you can do the most outragious, awefull, things to one anothers characters & have it not affect anyones OOC life. In character? Well, how would your character handle this? Do that. Maybe she does walk off to go find "D". Maybe your husbands character follows her seeking the bounty. And maybe that's all just story for another time....
#3 ironchef33 Jul 31, 2009 12:03:38	Hrm, well, if you want to take it back out on them IC, see if there is someway where your character would find out that D did in fact turn her in, then you'll have a good reason to plot against him. This is why it's always hard to deal with "evil" characters, in my opinion. Did the player for D reroll a new character? It seems to me that you were saved by Player of D's new character, if that's the case, maybe D can become a small villain in the campaign. Try to avoid taking things IC out OOC, that's a bit overboard.
#4 Gurv Jul 31, 2009 12:16:17	Read this article by Rich Berlew. The jist of it: don't let "but this is what I think my character would do" become an issue of "but this game isn't fun to play".
#5 rav514 Jul 31, 2009 12:29:48	Well, it sound like to me that d and his wife(?) decided they didnt like there characters anymore and needed a story reason to leave the group. THus you got betrayed. I would agree with your husband. Let it go. If you really dont like you characacter anymore, them say your going to hunt them down and kill them for the betrayal, leave the group and roll a new pc. Otherwise, either take the new gear find another way to get some.
#6 kistra Jul 31, 2009 12:40:29	I know I need to let it go. I was trying to get advice on what sorts of things helped other people let it go. And like I said, I spent 6 mos trying to redeem this character. My character wouldn't go kill him IC, but she would try to find him and keep trying to redeem him. I just feel like I would be dragging the plot in a wonky direction that no one else wants if I did that.
#7 rav514 Jul 31, 2009 14:17:46	Well, we really can't help you to much here. You have to ask yourself if your character has any reason to travel with the party besides redeeming d. If not, chase after him and make a new character. Since your asking how i got over being betrayed; 1st time: Killing the guy. Though this is misleading. Some one got the bright idea that we should play paranoia. Which is basically a game where you think everyone is out to A: kill you; or B: Betray and get you killed. So pretty much everyone died a few times. Latest time: Playing dark sun; The rest of my party got enslaved by a caravan leader who we were working for. So i burnt half of the caravan down in the middle of the desert and am currently leading a band of gith (bi-pedal carinvorious lizards) back to said caravan to finish the job. I dont like being betrayed. I let you know how the gith part goes in a couple of weeks.
#8 congzilla Jul 31, 2009 14:21:35	I know I need to let it go. I was trying to get advice on what sorts of things helped other people let it go. Remembering that its just a game always helps. If something that happens to your character upsets you ooc, your not playing your character.
#9 dmoore076 Jul 31, 2009 14:25:08	Kistra, Thanks for posting. Here's my take: the fault lies with your DM on this one. You should try not to be upset with the other players. More on that in a second. The DM should not allow evil, traitorous characters in the party in a game of Dungeons and Dragons unless ALL characters are evil and traitorous. Period. This is because you have gotten into THE classic situation when party members screw each other over: that fun is being ruined at the expense of drama or inter-party dynamics. Now, there can be fun in inter-party tension. I am sure everyone has had experiences where two characters always seem to disagree with each other and constantly grumble at each about where to go and what to do or how to handle that ogre in the basement. That kind of thing is fine. However, it stops being fine when characters are hurt (i.e. losing gear, getting in actual game fights, truly upsetting people emotionally). What the DM allowed the other players to do is to hurt your character mechanically by taking away all your gear. And that's not acceptable. Players should not be allowed to mechanically hurt other players in Dungeons and Dragons. It's not that kind of game. Go play Paranoia or something if that's what you want. So put the blame on the DM for allowing the players to do this, and try to get over it. Consider a different group or different DM if he continues allowing these players to do this to the group. Remember: the DM has control over the tone and flow of the game, and he should put his foot down with disruptive players. Also one last thing. Stop trying to "redeem" this bad character. The kindest, most gentle priest in the world is not going to seek out the person who robs them and tries to sell them into slavery, and then chat with them. Unless you are trying to role-play sick co-dependency or some kind of psychosis you need to modify that character concept. P.S. I know that your character doesn't know the specifics of the betrayal but I bet he/she can figure it out if the rest of the party was sold into slavery and "D" isn't right there with you.
#10 jutter Jul 31, 2009 14:33:57	Never deny your feelings. If you feel bad, you feel bad. That does not mean you should make a big thing out of this though. OOC, you were not betrayed. D&D is a game of mutual storytelling. Different people have different styles. My best bet is that no players at that table wanted (or even had the intention) to hurt your feelings. Chances are the guy is oblivious to the fact that he 'wronged' you. In that case there is no 'threat' that needs to be resolved. Thus, there is probably nothing you can gain by making a big thing out of it, but there are some things you can lose. That does not mean the part of you that makes you feel bad is wrong. Apparently, that part screams for some attention. What does it mean? Perhaps it means you prefer a certain style of play that this player countered that particular evening. If that is the case, discuss it with the group after things have settled down. Maybe your gamegroup can grow through that discussion. But if you find that you can't turn those feelings into something constructive, put them aside. In that case they are important and shouldn't be denied, but your actions shouldn't be guided by them right now. Last but not least: never reduce the fun of the actual people at the table over something as silly as 'what a fictional character would do'. If you enjoy playing this character but there is no reason for her to stay with the party, change the character a bit so it has a reason to stay with the party. Good luck. I hope some of the replies can help you out.
#11 makeshiftwings Jul 31, 2009 15:45:16	This is why whenever I DM, I make a point of stating up front that all the characters need to have some reason to want to support each other, and that no one is allowed to secretly want to betray the others. For your situation, first, remember that the player probably didn't think it would hurt your feelings. Many players, especially new players, just love the idea of secret betrayal, because it seems like it will be a shocking plot twist. After you've been playing for a few years, it grows stale. I can't count the number of times someone new to D&D wanted to join my game and asked "Can I be a character who's secretly evil and betrays the other PC's at some point?" It's not because they're malicious; it's because betrayal is a great trope and popular in dramatic stories. It also usually seems really original and brilliant to the person who wants to do it, with them thinking the rest of the players would never see it coming. In my case, if I'm ever in a game where some player joins as a "temporary character", I assume right off the bat that he's going to betray us and join the bad guys at some point. Your situation is why many DM's who have been running for a while will refuse to allow betrayals. The "surprise plot twist" that it brings just isn't worth the trouble it causes. At best it creates an interruption where players are coming and going or making new PC's, and at worst, it results in hurt feelings and people not wanting to play anymore. I say, chalk this up as a learning experience for your group. Now that you've got party betrayal out of your system, you can try to create new characters who actually have some reason to want to help each other out. Maybe you should talk to your DM and group and agree that for the rest of the campaign, no one will be secretly evil or working to betray each other. It might seem like it's ruining the suspense a little bit, but you still have tons of options for an interesting story and relationship dynamics without everyone wanting to stab each other in the back. You can always get betrayed by NPC's if things are going too smoothly ;)
#12 chaosturtle Aug 02, 2009 12:55:09	Honestly, I'd love something like this to happen. It'd end up being a great twist, and really sets the stage for a new villain. This is the one of the few perfect examples of a betrayal that isn't just a problem player...the fact that you're able to get so immersed in the game world really just goes to show that you have an excellent campaign going. Its pretty obvious these guys weren't problem players who went with the usual- lulz, I'm chaotic evil so it makes sense argument...they worked it out with the dm and let it become a big part of the story. That being said, it is just a game and its very clear these people aren't just being problem players, so there's no reason to feel betrayed or anything, what happens in character, stays in character. If you're really having a hard time distinguishing ic from ooc, then stop playing immediately...it isn't healthy, and I don't think a new char would help. Might be better to take up a different, friendlier game that doesn't involve taking on the role of a character.
#13 glaive_21842 Aug 02, 2009 15:15:58	First, try to recognize it as an interesting plot point. As they say in eberron, "traditionally good aligned creatures may wind up opposed to the heroes, while well known agents of evil might provide assistance when its least expected". From there, try to identify with their new characters IC. Creating good relations and plot elements with the new characters will help you forget about the old ones. However, if you don't want to forget about them, create a new plot based on it. You said that your character was essentially his mentor of sorts, so you could go with a sort of fallen student approach kinda like with Anakin Skywalker. In the end, I guess I'm just saying to use this situation to your advantage. Sure betrayal sucks when it happens to your characters, but if you can take advantage of the plot possibilities presented, you may eventually find yourself glad that it happened.
#14 garner_adam Aug 02, 2009 18:01:02	Read this article by Rich Berlew. The jist of it: don't let "but this is what I think my character would do" become an issue of "but this game isn't fun to play". I really need to suggest to all the people I play with that they read that article carefully... very carefully.
#15 kistra Aug 03, 2009 9:00:31	Thanks for all of your comments. Re-reading what I wrote and seeing all of your responses helped me phrase my concerns to the DM in a more coherent manner. After talking a lot to the DM what bothers me more than the betrayal is the feeling that everything my character has done for the last six months has been completely wasted. We spent three sessions questing after a specific piece of equipment and lost it in the betrayal and now we the next merchant we see is going to have one for sale. It just doesn't feel the same. As I said I have talked to the DM and he admitted that he didn't think through everything we would be losing (equipment and quest progress wise) and would have done things differently if he had time to think all of it through. He is a really good DM so I trust him to come up with something interesting to make it up to us. This definitely isn't something I would leave the group over, I really enjoy the game.