I was thinking for running an encounter with a Black dragon and three shadowhunter bats. It's a level 6 encounter for six lv 5 PCs. Now the Dragons Zone of Darkness ability states that it blinds all except the dragon that enter. But I'm going to use a houserule that the bats have echolocation and aren't blinded by the darkness, thus taking advantage of the extra damage should they attack someone inside the darkness.
If you were a part of this party would you be upset by this ruling or would you simply enjoy the challenge.
If it matters, here is the party:
Warforged fighter (shield build)
Shifter Druid (predator)
Teifling Warlock (fey pact)
Half-orc Barbarian (rageblood)
Deva Invoker (preserving)
Human Warlord (inspiring)
Adjust the encounter level accordingly (at least +1, maybe more, depending on the number and effectiveness of the bats...which probably means you figure out the actual encounter level after they're finished), and you'll be fine.
Just to make sure things go smoothly, I recommend that, if any of the players make an appropriate monster knowledge check, you do make a point to state plainly and clearly that these bats seem to be in some way different than normal examples of their kind (perhaps in that they're more comfortable in close proximity to this dragon than would otherwise be expected, or somesuch)
Here's my reasoning from a player's standpoint:
Bats have ALWAYS had blindsense. I didn't even bother to look it up in the monster manual because of course bats still have blindsense. If you even mention this is a houserule and not the actual text it would surprise me.
Go for it.
Edit: Wait what is this doing in the player forum? shouldn't this be over in "what's a DM to do?"
Edit: Wait what is this doing in the player forum? shouldn't this be over in "what's a DM to do?"
As stated in the OP, he is asking for the opinions of players.
I was thinking for running an encounter with a Black dragon and three shadowhunter bats. It's a level 6 encounter for six lv 5 PCs. Now the Dragons Zone of Darkness ability states that it blinds all except the dragon that enter. But I'm going to use a houserule that the bats have echolocation and aren't blinded by the darkness, thus taking advantage of the extra damage should they attack someone inside the darkness.
If you were a part of this party would you be upset by this ruling or would you simply enjoy the challenge.
If it matters, here is the party:
Warforged fighter (shield build)
Shifter Druid (predator)
Teifling Warlock (fey pact)
Half-orc Barbarian (rageblood)
Deva Invoker (preserving)
Human Warlord (inspiring)
I personally think the description for Zone of Darkness is screwy. The MM uses the same wording for the Drow Cloud of Darkness ability, and a strict reading of those powers would indicate that one black dragon's Zone would blind another black dragon, and one drow's Cloud would blind another drow. That just seems a bit silly, since the powers would be just as detrimental to allies as to enemies. So as a DM, I'd rule that creatures with darkvision (or blindsight) can see in the magically-created but otherwise mundane darkness. As a player, I'd think a DM who made this ruling wouldn't be house-ruling as much as just using common sense.
And I also think that bats should have blindsight, rather than darkvision...
I'd find it very strange if the bats were affected by darkness - even magical darkness. In fact it'd lead me to saying yet more vile things about the stupid people who designed 4e....
So if I encountered bats functioning "normaly"? I wouldn't even notice it, let alone care.
Thanks for your responses guys. I assumed that people would be OK with bats seeing in the dark (duh) but thought I'd get a second opinion before I throw it at my players.
Bats have ALWAYS had blindsense. I didn't even bother to look it up in the monster manual because of course bats still have blindsense. If you even mention this is a houserule and not the actual text it would surprise me.
You'd think so but, sadly, no.
Bats have ALWAYS had blindsense. I didn't even bother to look it up in the monster manual because of course bats still have blindsense. If you even mention this is a houserule and not the actual text it would surprise me.
To be fair, we are talking about bats in a fantasy setting, an alternate (and fictional) universe where echolocation may never have evolved on any animal (wait, the Destrachan, never mind...).
That being said, I agree with your surprise.
To the OP: As a player, I'd hope for a tiny bonus (not necessarily XP, maybe some beneficial terrain in the encounter, or perhaps some extra treasure), but neither would I be disappointed if you didn't give the players a bonus at all.
In other words, go for it.
My DM does a lot of "okay there's something bad here but somehow all the monsters can avoid it because it's their home terrain." Usually this is a Difficult Terrain thing. I think he's used difficult terrain in like 3/4 of the combats we've fought in, and in at least half of those, the monsters ignore the difficulty.
It makes sense sometimes. I think my DM overuses this, so take care not to do this kind of thing too often, but once in a while shouldn't be a problem.
This isn't the kind of thing I do often so my players shouldn't be upset with me trying to screw them over all the time. The players may have an advantage depending on which way they enter the lair. If they enter from the dungeon end then the dragon will have the advantage of being able to bottleneck the PCs and the bats will have all the PCs grouped togeather in the dragons zone of darkness. If the PCs enter from the underground river, which would be the result of them falling from the level above due to a trap, then the PCs will have open room and the dragon won't be expecting them from that direction.
I'd find it very strange if the bats were affected by darkness - even magical darkness. In fact it'd lead me to saying yet more vile things about the stupid people who designed 4e....
So all monsters based on real world animals have to posess all the abilities of their real world prototypes or you are making a mistake in design?????
Or are you going to go onto a platonic rant about how echolocation is a necessary part of the form of a bat, even for a fantasy monster. Which it actually is not. The general shape and flying are the only 2 that could qualify.
I state it this way because we are not looking at real world bats, but magical bats, who could have other means of "seeing" in the dark. THese bats do, they can actually see in darkness. which is better then echolocation. But the dragons ability trumps it.
Ok, but by a strict interpretation of the rules, the dragon/drow ability trumps the sensory abilities of other dragons/drow. So by that reasoning, if you run into two black dragons (a mating pair or a parent and offspring) or a drow war party, then they would never use this ability, since it would hinder their allies as much as their enemies. A drow war party that can't see in its own darkness doesn't make any sense, even using fantasy logic. If the drow were a created race, then their creator would be an idiot to make their racial abilities backfire like that, and if they evolved, then they would necessarily have done so in an environment with absolutely no external enemies for it to be a survival trait for the ability to be effective against other drow. The same is true of dragons. If they were created, then shame on their creator. And since dragons are solitary creatures, surely the incidence of black dragon on black dragon violence would have been so rare as to be irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, so there would be little evolutionary imperative for the ability to be effective against other black dragons.
The ability works as magically created mundane darkness. It makes no sense as magical super-duper everyone-is-blind-but-me darkness.
The ability works as magically created mundane darkness. It makes no sense as magical super-duper everyone-is-blind-but-me darkness.
Sure it does. Drow and Black Dragons aren't exactly renowned for their cooperation and ability to get along with others.
They can just place it more carefully. Drow PCs do have an option by feat I believe of reducing the negatives of their Cloud of Darkness for allies.
OP: Does your group have a few Push/Pull/Slide effects? Forced Teleportation?
If not, don't overdo the dragon hanging out in his own cloud round after round. That's extremely frustrating for groups that can't force it out.
The ability works as magically created mundane darkness. It makes no sense as magical super-duper everyone-is-blind-but-me darkness.Sure it does. Drow and Black Dragons aren't exactly renowned for their cooperation and ability to get along with others.
Did you actually read any of my post prior to that sentence? Because it seems you just skipped right to it rather than reading the reasoning behind it.
To paraphrase myself... If black dragons and drow evolved, the only way there would be evolutionary imperative for their racial darkness to work against themselves would be if they were their own primary threat. Dragons aren't social enough for them to be the most significant threat to themselves. Drow live in a ruthless, backstabbing society, but in every setting I've ever seen, the threat from non-drow -- including the various monsters of the underdark and all surface-dwellers -- is considerably more significant than from other drow. And if either black dragons or drow were created, then if their creator intended for their racial darkness to work against themselves, then that creator intended for them to to be their own primary threat, which is essentially just a different view of the reasoning against an evolutionary imperative.
For something like this to make any real sense, there has to be a reason for it, not just a lack of reason against it.
I understood your initial reasoning, I was disagreeing with it.
Drow are typically their own worst enemies, what with the power struggles, assassinations, and generally cutthroat social advancement advocated by Lolth -- or at least, that's what R.A. Salvatore and the other Drow propagandists would have us believe.
Black Dragons have less precedence, but principally because you even agree they are not too sociable; giving immunity to your best defense mechanism for all other black dragons that you happen to meet seems like a bad idea, considering they likely wants to kill you and steal your treasure and territory -- before or after any potential mating. Plus, black dragon hatchlings have to escape the nest in the first place... Even real world birds eat each other or push each other out of the nest when they hatch, to ensure survival of one over another.
EDIT: But the black dragon point may be moot, because Darkvision pierces it, and black dragons all have Darkvision -- according to the Lore section of the MM which may or may not reflect the DM's interpretation of running the cloud.
As a player I would think it would be lame if the bats couldn't see in the darkness.
And as others have said, you don't need to justify encounter quirks to your players. For me, doing that would break game immersion.
I'd find it very strange if the bats were affected by darkness - even magical darkness. In fact it'd lead me to saying yet more vile things about the stupid people who designed 4e....
So all monsters based on real world animals have to posess all the abilities of their real world prototypes or you are making a mistake in design?????Or are you going to go onto a platonic rant about how echolocation is a necessary part of the form of a bat, even for a fantasy monster. Which it actually is not. The general shape and flying are the only 2 that could qualify.
I state it this way because we are not looking at real world bats, but magical bats, who could have other means of "seeing" in the dark. THese bats do, they can actually see in darkness. which is better then echolocation. But the dragons ability trumps it.
The overall point was that as a player (or even as my character) I would simply start from the assumption that bats opperate just fine in the dark. Afterall, it's one of the things bats are known for.
Beyond that? I have a generally low opinion of 4e. And the description (actually the lack of beyond just a statblock) of the shadowbat doesn't help any. In fact I find most of the MM sub-par. My 30 year old Basic set rule book includes better descriptions of monsters!
As far as the rant? No. But if you'd like one I'll point you towards my friend Tom. He'll rant about ANYTHING.
Thanks for your responses guys. Some heated discussion on the darkness vs allies issue. I believe that if a dragon had a mate then they would have learnt how to see into each others darkness with time. Dragons aren't a lower race after all so I would imagine that they would at least adapt to each others darkness. Same with drow. A war band that have had a lot of training togeather would surely learn how to cope with eachothers darkness and learn how to fight inside eachothers darkness.
Well thats myy two cents anyway.
OP: Does your group have a few Push/Pull/Slide effects? Forced Teleportation?
Yes the fighter and druid have many froced movement powers. The warlord can help move his allies as well.
Black Dragons have less precedence, but principally because you even agree they are not too sociable; giving immunity to your best defense mechanism for all other black dragons that you happen to meet seems like a bad idea, considering they likely wants to kill you and steal your treasure and territory -- before or after any potential mating. Plus, black dragon hatchlings have to escape the nest in the first place... Even real world birds eat each other or push each other out of the nest when they hatch, to ensure survival of one over another.
While it might be convenient, it's not sufficiently causative. We're not talking about evolving the ability to create darkness, but the ability to create a very special type of darkness through which its creator and only its creator can see, to the extreme of blocking the vision of other individuals of the same species. I find it extremely unlikely that the rare non-procreative encounter between black dragons would be sufficient impetus to evolve such a unique defense mechanism.
EDIT: But the black dragon point may be moot, because Darkvision pierces it, and black dragons all have Darkvision -- according to the Lore section of the MM which may or may not reflect the DM's interpretation of running the cloud.
I assume you're referring to the bit in the Black Dragon Lore section, since absolutely nothing in any of the black dragon stat blocks mentions this. In fact, the description of the power states "The zone blocks line of sight for all creatures except the dragon. Any creature entirely within the area (except the dragon) is blinded." (Emphasis mine.) It doesn't say "for all creatures without darkvision" or "except creatures with darkvision". Since the drow power uses identical language (only substituting "drow ___" in place of "dragon"), it seems like it would have made more sense to go with the more general "The zone blocks line of sight for all creatures without darkvision. Any creature entirely within the area is blinded unless it has darkvision" if they intended it to be magically-created mundane darkness. In fact, since the black dragon and drow do have darkvision, the wording they used somewhat stongly implies that the darkness was intended to block other creatures' darkvision.
The Lore section is essentially fluff. It's logical fluff, in this case, but fluff nonetheless. Mechanically, the darkness should be impenetrable except by the exact creature that created it. Logically, reasonably, darkvision should pierce it. In any game I ran, darkvision should pierce it. In any game I played in, I would expect darkvision to pierce it. But technically, that would be a HR, despite the fluff in the Lore section.
Yes, and that's why I said it "may" be moot, based on the lore section.
And why would mating pairs be throwing up their clouds? Modesty? 