Last time, we ran into a sticky situation. In a large room in a dungeon, we came across a Young Black Dragon. We had a group of five level 4 characters, fairly even distribution of party roles: a ranged Dwarven Cleric, an Elven Archery Ranger, a human Brutal Scoundrel Rogue, a Dragonborn Guardian-style Fighter, and a human Orb Wizard. Most of us had our daily powers unexpended.
The problem we ran into was the Dragon's Cloud of Darkness ability. The fighter and the rogue would move in, then the dragon would use the cloud, and suddenly no-one could hit him - the rogue went down, what with the Tail Slash and ongoing acid damage, and the fighter had such a horrible chance to hit him, his Combat Challenge ability was of no threat to the dragon.
We tried splitting up and moving out to lure the dragon out of the cloud, but he just sat in there until it recharged, then moved in on one of us and used it again, starting the process all over again - not to mention breathing from within the cloud, hitting at least two of us with more ongoing acid damage every now and then. Eventually we had to pick up the rogue's limp (but thankfully stabilized) body and run for it - we all survived, though our confidence may have been mortally wounded.
Has anyone else had similar experiences with the Black Dragon? The Cloud of Darkness ability just seems too incredibly powerful - the Dragon's defenses are already extremely high, and applying a -5 penalty to all attack rolls against it (total concealment) makes it very nearly unhittable. The characters with the very best chances to hit it needed to roll a 16 or higher to hit it, so needless to say, must of us just spent our turns trying and failing. Very frustrating.
We DM kind of by committee for these sessions, though I usually end up doing most of the running (by choice).
Anyone have any ideas? Advice? Am I missing something in the rules that is making Cloud of Darkness more powerful than it should be? Even commiserating would be comforting right now. :P I know dragons are supposed to be tough fights, but this one seems over the top...and besides, with turn after turn spent rolling, hoping for a 16+, the fight is not fun in the slightest.
Thanks in advance.
Perhaps you should try not rolling the recharge roll until after the dragon has stopped sustaining the cloud, since technically it still is using the power at that point. That might make things a little more even.
-snip-
I ran a Black Dragon against a group of level 1 PCs and they won. Of course, we didn't understand AP rules as well as we could have at the time, and I did not know that Cloud of Darkness was sustainable and rechargeable.
Wow, my opinion of black dragons went up even more.
It may depend on your game, you could try playing with kid gloves, at least if the PCs are losing. If the game is casual, try not to take the most utterly brutal move you can. If your going for a more epic or gritty campaign, a savage dragon which outright murders one of PCs can be good motivation for a future quest and a basis for a memorable ongoing villain.
The problem is, the PCs *were* at about 90% power - the only expended dailies were Feather Fall (would not have affected this fight) and the Rogue had used his daily power earlier. Everyone had healing surges left. One problem we did note is that the only power the group had that dazed was Chill Strike, and as you might guess, with a -5 penalty, it missed.
My main problem is not with overpowering the PCs - Dragons are supposed to be tough fights, I realize that. We had one heck of a fun, drag-out battle with a white dragon a level earlier.
My real issue is that the Black Dragon's cloud of darkness ability makes it practically unhittable, and it takes the fight from "epic fun" to "tedious turn after turn of missing."
As it is, since this is just a "testing and learning ground" for fourth edition style game, we're going to try some modifications to that ability, and just run the encounter to test it - I think we'll try The Stray's idea, and if the dragon still can't be hit, I'll try making the cloud just give concealment, not total concealment, and not blind.
The blinding thing really sucks. The PCs had to unload a considerable chunk of change to buy a Remove Affliction ritual after they got back to town. I'm really starting to think the Black Dragon designer wasn't really thinking when he made the creature; The Knowledge bit contradicts the actual stats of the dragon (says darkvision can see through the cloud, but the ability seems quite specific in that ONLY the dragon can see through it).
Again, thanks all for your opinions/advice.
To me, it Makes it epic difficult, and that much more challenging.
What was once simple with 11+, meaning you hit half the time, is now only a 20% chance, 1/5 of the time.. because you are fighting this monstrous creature inside a cloud of magical darkness.
Characters that can manage to kill the thing then are simply.. heroic.
Don't give up so easily.
Good luck.
Problem 2: the DM (you) made a minor mistake in adjudicating the cloud, which ended up seriously magnifying the party's disadvantages. You don't make recharge rolls until the ability is expended, and it's not expended until the dragon stops sustaining it. The cloud is stationary once it's summoned; in order to move it, the dragon has to let it go down, recharge it (a 50/50 shot), and then spend a standard action to put it back up.
Problem 3: the players' tactics weren't flexible. They ran up to the dragon and tried to hit it, and it didn't work. That's fine, but they didn't change their approach--apparently, they just kept running into the opaque cloud and getting slapped around.
Problem 3b: the players and the DM probably missed a key rule that applies here. Concealment penalties, like the one the PCs take when targeting a dragon in a cloud of darkness, apply to melee and ranged attacks only; close and area attacks work just fine.
I'm not trying to pile on, here. All of the mistakes were honest and easy ones to make (I still have to look up the concealment and cover rules every time I use them, and I've been playing 4e since release). Hopefully the encounter will make more sense, and be a lot more fun, next time you try it.
Problem 1: you fought a dragon inside a dungeon. If the PCs had more room to maneuver, the cloud would have been considerably less overpowering. *snip*cloud of darkness.
Yeah, I realized the semi-cramped quarters theoretically made it harder, but it was the largest dungeon room we'd been in at that level...roughly 8 x 12 squares. After all, it's Dungeons and Dragons, right? :P
Problem 2: the DM (you) made a minor mistake in adjudicating the cloud...You don't make recharge rolls until the ability is expended, and it's not expended until the dragon stops sustaining it.
This is what I was looking for, however, do you have a page number for me to reference? I may house rule it anyway, but I checked and couldn't find anything regarding that. Probably just means I was looking in the wrong place. I hope.
Problem 3: the players' tactics weren't flexible. They ran up to the dragon and tried to hit it, and it didn't work. That's fine, but they didn't change their approach--apparently, they just kept running into the opaque cloud and getting slapped around.
Um, nope, after a round or two in the cloud (after we realized how bad our situation was), the party split up and spread out...that way the dragon could only melee one of us, maybe catch two of us in his breath weapon. I mention this in the fourth paragraph of my original post. However, the reason this didn't work may be related to your second point, if that one is accurate (hopefully!).
Problem 3b: the players and the DM probably missed a key rule that applies here. Concealment penalties, like the one the PCs take when targeting a dragon in a cloud of darkness, apply to melee and ranged attacks only; close and area attacks work just fine.
Oh trust me, I know, except the only close and area attacks the party had available to them were Spinning Sweep, Icy Terrain, Thunderwave, and Dragon Breath. That's not enough to take down a 200+ hp dragon on its own. Eventually, sure, but as we ran out of healing and the dragon wasn't even bloodied, we realized we weren't hurting it fast enough. But again, if your second point is correct, this becomes moot anyway.
I'm not trying to pile on, here. All of the mistakes were honest and easy ones to make (I still have to look up the concealment and cover rules every time I use them, and I've been playing 4e since release). Hopefully the encounter will make more sense, and be a lot more fun, next time you try it.
Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm gonna pour over power durations and such and see if I can confirm your second point, because I think that alone will significantly change the encounter - if it's true. I sure hope it is.
Why did you need remove affliction? The blindness from the dragon's cloud only lasts as long as they remain within the cloud's area...it's not a lingering effect.
The ability says, and I quote; "Any creature entirely within the area (except the dragon) is blinded." It doesn't say "is blinded until it leaves the area" or "is blinded until the end of the dragon's next turn" or "is blinded (save ends)." I assume that means it's lasting, but hey, if I'm wrong, that'd be awesome.
I'd suggest rethinking your perception of 16+ to hit. To me, it Makes it epic difficult, and that much more challenging.
It's less about the difficulty and more about the frustration of feeling useless 3/4 of the time or more. You don't feel heroic when you miss the boss creature for the fourth time in a row, you feel like chucking that die across the room.
But anyway, it looks like I made some mistakes with the dragon's ability (which is why I came here, really), so thanks again, all. I'll do some research and we'll see if we can kick the Black Dragon's butt next time. We sure owe him a comeuppance...
One of the few moments when Dispel Magic would come in handy...is there an item providing that effect somewhere, maybe a wand?
Yup, a wand would provide that power. However, it'd be a daily versus a recharge of 4,5,6 plus it's a level 13 wand. Good idea, but unfortunately not practical at level 4.
Edit: Whoops! Apparently only encounter powers can be put into Wands. So, no wand of dispel magic. Still, good thought.
The ability says, and I quote; "Any creature entirely within the area (except the dragon) is blinded." It doesn't say "is blinded until it leaves the area" or "is blinded until the end of the dragon's next turn" or "is blinded (save ends)." I assume that means it's lasting, but hey, if I'm wrong, that'd be awesome.
The blinded condition here is caused by a binary effect: either you are in the cloud, or you aren't. I agree that the power should have been clearer in what it meant, but the relevant information is in how zones work, which is on page 59 of the PHB. The Blindess caused by the zone begins and ends where the zone does. Once a character is no longer inside a zone, it is no longer affected by any conditions imposed by the zone UNLESS it specifically states otherwise. The "until is leaves the area" part of the duration is assumed by the zone keyword.
On the other hand, I found something important upon re-reading durations in the monster manual...apparently, even though they use the exact same keyword "sustain," a monster's sustain uses different rules from a player's sustain. What a headache!
According to the monster manual, a monster that sustains a power only sustains it until the beginning of his next turn - thus, unless I'm mistaken, it would end at the beginning of his next turn, before the monster could spend another action to sustain it!
I'm both immensely frustrated and overwhelmingly relieved right now. I'm frustrated because the designers for some reason chose to use the same keywords/language for different mechanics, causing confusion, but I'm relieved because I ran the encounter incorrectly, accidentally making it more difficult. Time for a rematch, dragon!
Thanks again for all your advice, constructive criticism, and help. I really appreciate it!
As for the effect of zones just working in the zones ... I think we can safely say that, even if it's not spelled out word by word, that the effects of a zone should only work as long as you are in the zone and should end once you're outside of it. Using logic, you're blinded because the zone is dark - once you're out in the light again, you can see just fine. It's not that you can't see because the dragon has blinded you and that you stay blind wherever you go. (If you reason with the effects persisting out of the zone, you'd logically say that if you enter a zone with difficult terrain, you henceforth treat everything as difficult terrain.)
I'd also go with the recharge only setting in once you stop using that power, not during it's usage.
We got lucky and landed a lot of pain before it got it's first darkness cloud up, then struggled. A lucky Thunderwave Crit managed to move it out into the light for a good round of attacks and we finished it with some Ongoing damage from one of the Ranger's powers.
It was definitely one of the most challenging encounters we've had with that group so far.
The ability says, and I quote; "Any creature entirely within the area (except the dragon) is blinded." It doesn't say "is blinded until it leaves the area" or "is blinded until the end of the dragon's next turn" or "is blinded (save ends)." I assume that means it's lasting, but hey, if I'm wrong, that'd be awesome.
You can look at "blinded" as the exception, and normal PC function as the rule. If a creature is entirely within the area, it's blind; if it's not, you go back to the default state.
It's less about the difficulty and more about the frustration of feeling useless 3/4 of the time or more. You don't feel heroic when you miss the boss creature for the fourth time in a row, you feel like chucking that die across the room.
Yeah, I've been there on both sides of the screen. I almost killed the PCs in my first session with a pack of goblins. The encounter was appropriate, but the players literally didn't roll above a 10 until the 5th round. Just this weekend my LFR character got pinned in a corner by a pair of hobgoblin soldiers, and because they were adjacent, they were basically unhittable. I had to wait for the party rogue (played by a 12-year-old kid) to come rescue me.
...we're trying to be very exacting on the rules, you see, because we want to start up an RPGA group in our area, and I assume we'd have to be very rules-specific.
You must not have played much RPGA stuff! :D I've had DMs who've run the gamut from rules-lawyer to laissez-faire; all of the really memorable sessions have fallen pretty squarely in the middle. Near the front of every LFR module, they have the following rule in bold print:
"Make decisions and adjudications that enhance the fun of the adventure when possible."
One of the consequences of that is if you can reasonably read a game rule two ways, and one of them is permanently crippling for the PCs and/or expensive to reverse, rule the other way.
On the other hand, I found something important upon re-reading durations in the monster manual...apparently, even though they use the exact same keyword "sustain," a monster's sustain uses different rules from a player's sustain. What a headache!
According to the monster manual, a monster that sustains a power only sustains it until the beginning of his next turn - thus, unless I'm mistaken, it would end at the beginning of his next turn, before the monster could spend another action to sustain it!
That's... weird.
Compare it to the "Tactics" section for the Earthwind Ravager: "...uses wind devil repeatedly until it immobilizes an enemy. Once it succeeds, it sustains the the effect with a minor action every round." That text only makes sense if sustain means the same thing in the MM that it does in the PHB. Also look at the bugbear's strangle, the harpy's alluring song, and I'm sure several others. These abilities simply don't make sense unless you can sustain a power from round to round. Hopefully, that text will be corrected in an update soon--I'm certain it's incorrect.
You don't feel heroic when you miss the boss creature for the fourth time in a row, you feel like chucking that die across the room.
Actually, I do feel heroic, because I know we are up against the wall, and might perish, so we gotta dig in and solve it.
It's not the dice, it's the tactics used, in the specific situation. Don't blame the dice.
Long ago, needing a 19 or 20 to hit was common, to kill anything. And it make combats exciting, because if you didn't hit, PCs would be griviously injured, or die. if it seemed like we needed 19 or 20 and the enemy di also, we hoped for luck, and used what tactics we could
If we needed 19 or 20 and the enemy needed 17 or better, we knew we were outclassed by a factor of two, so we considered regrouping, and using some different tactics.
I'm suggesting you redefine heroism. It's not about being able to kill things left and right with ease.
It is about doing the job, despite losses, and difficulty...improving your odds, reducing theirs in the combat.
That's my main point.
That's... weird.
Compare it to the "Tactics" section for the Earthwind Ravager: "...uses wind devil repeatedly until it immobilizes an enemy. Once it succeeds, it sustains the the effect with a minor action every round." That text only makes sense if sustain means the same thing in the MM that it does in the PHB. Also look at the bugbear's strangle, the harpy's alluring song, and I'm sure several others. These abilities simply don't make sense unless you can sustain a power from round to round. Hopefully, that text will be corrected in an update soon--I'm certain it's incorrect.
Well geez, then did the Monster Manual authors not talk to each other? This is turning into a massive mess. Thanks for the revelation - not that it does much to ease my confused mind.
I'm suggesting you redefine heroism. It's not about being able to kill things left and right with ease.
Agreed. Main problem is, the players were missing on a 15, and the Dragon was hitting them with 7s through 12s (depending on who he was chewing on). Pushing the dragon out with Thunderwave didn't help much, because the ability recharged so quickly. Which is also why their other tactics didn't pan out.
Basically, because I might have run the encounter incorrectly (seems to be somewhat up in the air), it was feeling like an unbeatable (or nearly so) encounter - no matter what they did, the Dragon was incredibly hard to hit, but hurting them quite badly. Hence, why they ran.
This time, I'm gonna make some modifications, and hopefully they can feel "heroic" this time. But even if they don't feel heroic, I just want a fun fight. And in general, "fun" means being able to contribute to the party's success.
Well geez, then did the Monster Manual authors not talk to each other? This is turning into a massive mess. Thanks for the revelation - not that it does much to ease my confused mind.
I thought about it some more, and decided that as dumb as it is, the MM description might be intentional. I took the question to the Rules Q&A board, and got two responses indicating that a) yes, it's stupid and b) no, there's no sign from Wizards that it was in error.