Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 forsteri Jul 20, 2010 5:59:55	So my weekly group's finished the last homebrew campaign, and we're in the process of tossing around ideas for another.  I noticed while peeking through 3.5 stuff on the DnD wiki that there used to be ways of making blind characters, and offsetting the drawbacks with different benefits.  I'm about 99% sure there's no official way to do this in 4e, but I think it'd be interesting from a roleplaying and combat perspective to play with the drawbacks and advantages of a blind PC. Problem is...how do I do this without breaking or gimping the character?  I need some suggestions to toss at my DM.  Obviously a blind character would be completely unable to make any checks that involve seeing something--most notably Perception checks involving sight.  Maybe limited tremorsense so the character could actually fight?  Any suggestions?
#2 davosown Jul 20, 2010 6:37:30	Hmm as a DM I would need to sit down and talk it over more to see what your thinking with the character. however my suggestions would be Perception based on sight is impossible. but you gain a +2 a generous DM might go for more  on Perception Checks not based on sight. Though this assumes the character has been blind for some time. I would suggest a feat that allows you to ignore attack penalties for melee combat to those adjacent to you. however all enemies not adjacent to you would have total concealment and you would not be aware f them unless they are making noise of some sort. You must also be aware that in combat if your adjacent to your allies you need some way of identifying who is friend and foe otherwise you may make attacks on them. That would be a start you may think of more if i do I will be sure to post.
#3 pluisjen Jul 20, 2010 6:55:27	An actually blind character cannot compete in the heroic world of 4e and will be left behind or die shortly into the game. Now a "blind warrior" archetype on the other hand could work just fine. To build one, simply write "blind" on your character sheet and forgo the ability to read, detect things by vision, admire color patterns, etc, and reflavor other abilities ("you hear him coming, you sense vibrations in the air, you can smell the magic from the item, blablabla") where required. Don't change the character mechanically, make it an RP/narrative thing. That's what you are looking for anyway.
#4 I_smile_alot Jul 20, 2010 7:22:23	This is a fun concept for a char. with interesting narrative RP elements and potential. In Star Trek TNG the chief engineer Geordi LaForge was blind from birth. Scientist created a VISOR for him that had a direct interface with his brain and allowed him to "see". We found out early in the season that it also gave him some headaches and some energy types affected the VISOR thus affected his site. But there was also an episode where Data hooked up a special feed so that the Enterprise could see what Geordi saw and we find out that his "vision" was completely unlike ours. He saw in a much broader range of the electromagnetic spectrum and saw people mainly as unique heat signatures that often let him detect lying in species he was extremely familiar with. I bring this up because their could easily be a magical equivalent ie Stygian Witches. a special circlet that let's him see, but not like we see and not without specific penalties and bonuses. Maybe he easily detects magical items because they give off a glow, maybe he can't see color. Magical effects that render blindness don't affect him, but areas of strong necrotic energy either severely limit his vision or render him blind. Hope my 2cp's help.    Smiles
#5 wrecan Jul 20, 2010 7:51:48	I agree with Pluisjen.  Someone plays a blind character for two reasons: They want the challenge of playing a character with drawbacks. They like the flavor of the blind man who overcomes his disability. If the latter, then don't do anything.  The blindness is simply flavor for the character.  Assume his other senses have compensated and he can be "blinded" by any effect that causes the blinded condition, just like sighted characters.  If he wants to play illetracy or color-blindness as part of this, then allow it. If he wants the drawback, then give him the drawback.  Don't pump him up with other things that make his drawback a benefit -- like tremorsense. A blind character always has the blinded condition.  He can't target objects or creatures.  He always grants combat advantage.  He has a -10 on Perception checks.  He cannot flank.  And he is immune to gaze attacks. He'll probably be a character who specializes in bursts and blasts.  Assume his allies are telling him where enemies are on the battlefield, so he can include them in his areas of effect. If you really want to put in the extra effort, you can homebrew some feats for him that can offset some of these drawbacks.  Tremorsense might be an Epic tier feat, for exaple.  The ability to flank may be a Paragon Feat.  Or perhaps the ability to target adjacent enemies with melee attacks may be a Heroic Feat.  Maybe a feat to eliminate the combat advantage he grants simply for being blind.  Or a feat to reduce the Perception check to -5.  Don't forget the epic feat already in place -- Blind-fight.  But these should be commensurate with the cost of a feat.
#6 Leogun_91 Jul 20, 2010 14:01:05	A very easy way to do it would be to make him arcane with a fammiliar and have the fammiliar work as his eyes. Otherwise I would just use it for fluff, DnD is overheroic and adventurers shouldn't have drawbacks for being unable to see, being crippeled, having had most of their brain destroyed or anything else.
#7 BilopTheFleshwarper Jul 22, 2010 2:38:36	THIS THREAD AGAIN.... Really you have two options... Make the blindness wholey RP, and not mechanical in any way(as suggested above)... OR take the full penalties and be murdered by the first kobolds you encounter. I seriously HATE the "blind master" idea.  the only way to do it "correctly" is to have a big list of special powers that make you.... not blind...or in a lot of cases, better than sighted PC's. My suggestion... DON'T, play an awaked darkmantle barbarian.
#8 kuonji Jul 22, 2010 7:50:36	I would also highly suggest the "roleplay only" method of doing this. Trying to mess with mechanics just ends up being a mess or, as Bilop stated, gives you an array of powers that actually make you better in many cases.
#9 cheeze21084 Jul 22, 2010 11:49:09	Isn't there a headslot item that gives you blindsight 5 or 10?
#10 BilopTheFleshwarper Jul 23, 2010 1:25:46	Yes... it also makes you blind!    Grimlock helm, level 17, it's a daily power.
#11 Damon_Tor Jul 24, 2010 1:51:57	For what it's worth, I created a series of feats to allow for this.  No promises as to how balanced this might be though, your mileage may vary. Blind Tier: Heroic You have Blindsight 1, and you are blind. (This is the blind keyword, not the blinded condition) You can choose one Blindness feat you qualify for as a free feat. Improved Blindsight [Blindness] Tier: Heroic Prerequisite: Blind Double the range of the blindsight granted by Blind. Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Thundersense [Blindness] Tier: Heroic Prerequisite: Blind When a creature takes thunder damage, treat them as if they are in range of your blindsight until the end of your next turn. You have a +2 feat bonus to damage with thunder powers. This bonus increase to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level Guiding Companion [Blindness] Tier: Heroic Prerequisite: Beast Mastery Class Feature, Blind While adjacent to your Beast Companion you share its senses. Guiding Familiar [Blindness] Tier: Heroic Prerequisite: Arcane Familiar, Blind While your familiar is in passive mode you share its senses. Sensory Precision [Blindness] Tier: Paragon Prerequisite: Blind, 11th Level You can score a critical hit with a roll of 18-20 against creatures in range of your blindsight. Echosense [Blindness] Tier: Paragon Prerequisite: Blind, 11th Level You gain a +2 feat bonus to AC and Reflex against enemies in range of your Blindsight. This bonus improves to +3 at 21st level.
#12 purechance Jul 24, 2010 5:31:54	Sensory Precision is the only one which seems OP to me... Sure it's only within their blindsight, but that means that for 4 feats they get 18-20 crit range on pretty much everything from 11th level onwards, or only 3 feats if they are a melee character, since blindsight 4 should be sufficient, since you only need it with things you are hitting which are probably within 4 squares.
#13 averagetable Jul 24, 2010 10:11:02	Blind Tier: Heroic You have Blindsight 1, and you are blind. (This is the blind keyword, not the blinded condition) You can choose one Blindness feat you qualify for as a free feat. Since the "blind" in "you are blind" is a keyword and not the blinded condition; does that mean that being blind carries no drawback or penalty? As the feat is written, it sounds as if a "blind" character can see just as well as everyone else (e.g. he knows where every enemy within line-of-sight is located, he can roll perception checks as normal, et cetera), plus he gains Blindsight 1 and the benefits of another free Blindness feat.
#14 Damon_Tor Jul 24, 2010 14:55:23	Sensory Precision is the only one which seems OP to me... Sure it's only within their blindsight, but that means that for 4 feats they get 18-20 crit range on pretty much everything from 11th level onwards, or only 3 feats if they are a melee character, since blindsight 4 should be sufficient, since you only need it with things you are hitting which are probably within 4 squares. You also yield combat advantage to anything outside your blindsight though (they are invisible to you) so anything hitting you from beyond your range of vision, so an average character would be taking 20% more damage from ranged attacks over the course of their adventure.  It would also be astaoundingly easy to hide from the character, just step outside of their blindsight and "hide" since anything out there would have total concealment. So the feats have these weaknesses in mind.  Most characters can get a 19-20 crit range with a single feat, these characters have just a 50% better chance of critting than those characters, and only while close to their target (or under the effect of Thundersense). Blind Tier: Heroic You have Blindsight 1, and you are blind. (This is the blind keyword, not the blinded condition) You can choose one Blindness feat you qualify for as a free feat. Since the "blind" in "you are blind" is a keyword and not the blinded condition; does that mean that being blind carries no drawback or penalty? As the feat is written, it sounds as if a "blind" character can see just as well as everyone else (e.g. he knows where every enemy within line-of-sight is located, he can roll perception checks as normal, et cetera), plus he gains Blindsight 1 and the benefits of another free Blindness feat. Blind creatures cannot see, and rely on other senses to do so.  This means anything outside of this creature's blindsight is invisible to him (he grants it combat advantage) and has total concealment (-5 to hit, can hide without cover) so the drawbacks are not insignificant.  He is immune to gaze attacks, which is a nice perk. About the best character I can think of for this feat series is a Storm Sorcerer, or Thunder-Heavy wizard or bard.  Get a familiar plus Guiding Familiar to overcome the majority of the blindness drawbacks then take Thundersense and Sensory Precision to allow for your 18-20 crit range and a +1 to damage over the standard feat bonus. That's 4 feats to get there though, which doesn't seem terribly overpowered to me.  Like I said though, your mileage may vary.
#15 averagetable Jul 24, 2010 16:16:55	Blind creatures cannot see, and rely on other senses to do so.  This means anything outside of this creature's blindsight is invisible to him (he grants it combat advantage) and has total concealment (-5 to hit, can hide without cover) so the drawbacks are not insignificant.  He is immune to gaze attacks, which is a nice perk. Well of course, that is what the blind condition does. My point was that your feat explicitly states that it does not impose the blind condition: You have Blindsight 1, and you are blind. (This is the blind keyword, not the blinded condition) In other words, your "Blind" feat, as written, does not actually make the character blind.  So, as written, your feat does not impose any penalties. If your intent is that a character who takes this feat is indeed permanently subject to the blind condition, then you obviously need to reword it.
#16 Damon_Tor Jul 25, 2010 3:46:43	Blind creatures cannot see, and rely on other senses to do so.  This means anything outside of this creature's blindsight is invisible to him (he grants it combat advantage) and has total concealment (-5 to hit, can hide without cover) so the drawbacks are not insignificant.  He is immune to gaze attacks, which is a nice perk. Well of course, that is what the blind condition does. My point was that your feat explicitly states that it does not impose the blind condition: You have Blindsight 1, and you are blind. (This is the blind keyword, not the blinded condition) In other words, your "Blind" feat, as written, does not actually make the character blind.  So, as written, your feat does not impose any penalties. If your intent is that a character who takes this feat is indeed permanently subject to the blind condition, then you obviously need to reword it. You are confusing the blind keyword and the blinded condition, which are two totally different and unrelated things.  The blind keyword actually makes one immune to the blinded condition. From the compendium: Blind: A blind creature relies on special senses, such as blindsight or tremorsense, to see within a specified range, beyond which the creature can’t see. The creature is immune to gaze attacks and cannot be blinded. So being outside the blindsight radius a character with this feat would be identical to being outside the blindsight radius of a blind monster, such as a Grell.  This is exactly the functionality I'm looking for. The Blinded condition, on the other hand, would require alot of editing... and all I'd be doing was turning into the "blind" keyword anyway. Blinded: • You grant combat advantage. • You can’t see any target (your targets have total concealment). • You take a -10 penalty to Perception checks. • You can’t flank an enemy. Combat advantage is included with the "blind" keyword, as is "can't see any target" except, as written, I'd need to write an exception for creatures inside the blindsight radius, where "blind" is already written to work with blindsight.  The flanking provision is not needed at all.
#17 pluisjen Jul 25, 2010 3:54:45	Since a Passive Familiar cannot be targeted at all, you can see just as well as any other character, since you'd never have a reason to put it in Active mode; you'd just abuse the hell out of the 18-20 crit range.
#18 purechance Jul 25, 2010 5:45:43	As well as the above, other reasons I still feel it's OP include the fact that the blind character is not fighting in a vacuum - other characters can take a free action to tell him where the monsters outside his zone are, so he can plan his movement quite easily, secondly, the "single feat" to improve crit range to 19-20 comes in epic, not paragon - thats 10 levels where the blind and supposedly handicapped character is outperforming the non-blind one significantly, and 9 levels during epic where the blind character is still out-performing the other characters (although this is possibly offset by granting combat advantage). Next, the feat Uncanny Dodge would mean that he is no longer granting combat advantage, removing that 20% more damage from ranged creatures (which is only relevant if you are fighting most ranged creatures). Here's an example of why its over-powered: My 'blind' fighter is busy abusing the 18-20 crit range in paragon, since all the targets he ould possibly attack are in his bindsight (bursts/blasts aren't altered), he has in paragon a feat which is outright better than an epic feat.  If the monster manages leaves his blindsight zone (tricky since he is a fighter) his bardic friend calls out as a free action "He's ten feet in front of you, and five feet left of you!" The fighter moves 2 squares forward and one square left, and proceeds to hit him with his 18-20 crit range. The above fighter need only take 3 feats to outperform a normal fighter throughout paragon and epic: Improved Blindsight [Heroic] (puts pretty much all his possible targets into his blindsight range), Sensory Precision [Paragon] (18-20 crit range on all targets from paragon onwards), Uncanny Dodge [Paragon] (the -2 to defenses due to combat advantage no longer applies).  Of those feats the not blind fighter may well have taken Uncanny Dodge anyway, would be taking the Weapon Mastery feat in epic (requiring significant stat investment - a heavy blade fighter might not have been able to make it, and would definitely have sacrificed other stats if he does, stats the blind character didn't need to, a further advanatge for the blind character). So the only 'extra' feat the blind character has needed to take in order to outperform the normal fighter is Improved Blindsight in heroic. Therefore, excluding fluff reasons, why would you play a sighted fighter over a blind fighter?  The blind fighter pumps out more damage from paragon onwards, and even has the benefit of an immunity to certain attacks.  The only thing he is vulnerable to is the deafened condition (which might matter for a change) but this is balanced out by the fact he is immune to the blinded condition.  Plus he has fewer problems with invisible enemies unlike his sighted fighter friend. This is a perfect example of a blind character beig made more powerful than a sighted one.
#19 averagetable Jul 25, 2010 11:27:53	You are confusing the blind keyword and the blinded condition, which are two totally different and unrelated things. Ah, yes, my mistake. Until you mentioned it I actually hadn't noticed that "Blind" is an officially defined keyword (separate from the blind condition) that carries its own effects. I was under the impression that "Blind" was a keyword you were inventing for the purposes of this family of feats - one that you seemingly had not defined beyond the definitions of the feats themselves.
#20 Krusk Jul 25, 2010 16:54:40	Just roleplay yourself as unable to see. If the DM calls for a spot check, you probably shouldn't bother rolling and just say you don't see it. If its perception, maybe you hear/smell/astrally see/daredevil vision the foe behind the bushes instead of see them. You can fight in combat against the enemies because of ~whatever~ and everyone agrees that that is cool, and so no one complains except jim. Jim complains about everything, so the group votes to ignore him as usual.
#21 alexandraerin Jul 25, 2010 17:44:36	I've thought about how I would handle it if someone wanted to play a blind character, and I guess I'd go a middle of the road path. It would -mostly- be roleplay. Perception checks would go as normal, but would be flavored differently... it would always be something they smell, feel, hear, or even "sense", never something they see. Sometimes this would result in them perceiving something that no one else could... feeling the minute draft from the secret door... but this "compensation" wouldn't affect their chance of noticing the secret door overall. If the blind character wants to have "heightened senses" as compensation for the blindness, there's a feat for that: Skill Focus (Perception). Establishing a logical reason for a character to have some kind of special training is a great thing, but you still have to take the feat to represent that training. As for handling combat? I have a few different ideas there, but I haven't given it enough thought for it to be worth laying them out, and until I have a player who really wants to play a blind character there's not much point in taking them any further.  (If they weren't going for a blind master, I'd really strongly suggest the player make their character at least a Hybrid Warlord and make half their powers come from the Warlord's "Hit him! Hit him!" bag. This way the character could contribute to combat by staying out of it.)
#22 Damon_Tor Jul 26, 2010 1:58:57	No promises as to how balanced this might be though, your mileage may vary. ...I still feel it's OP... That's fine, man, I even said it wasn't balanced.  Use whatever you feel is interesting and leave the rest.  If there's a powergamer in your group, do not offer him homebrew.
#23 balogthefierce Jul 26, 2010 19:03:43	If there's a powergamer in your group, do not offer him homebrew. This should be written into the DMG 3
#24 plewes Jul 27, 2010 14:25:53	Guiding Familiar [Blindness] Tier: Heroic Prerequisite: Arcane Familiar, Blind While your familiar is in passive mode you share its senses. Sight of the Familiar is a paragon feat that does pretty much the exact same thing.  You can see through its eyes and you get all its senses when in passive mode.  I used that to make a blind character, it worked out pretty good, but it did require 3 feats for a non-arcane character.
#25 Johnathan_Vagabond Jul 27, 2010 16:17:57	An interesting note here.  The Vistani Execrator paragon path based on the Vistani Heritage feat has an 11th level feature which allows you to save against Blind effects, even if they would not normally allow a save, but grants no healing function.  So, theoretically, if you had an 11th level blind character (due to whatever; eyes gouged out, ancient curse, inherent blindness) take the Vistani Execrator PP, they could see again (you get to do this once per round I believe) but wouldn't heal any of their other maladies. It's a good way for a paragon level PC to be blind without being blind. Edit: Just reread it, appears it wouldn't work that way.  However if you're already a Vistani Execrator and someone gouges out your eyes, you still get a save to avoid being blinded.  So that could be a way to fluff it.  You were already an execrator when your eyes were taken, but never became blind.
#26 Damon_Tor Jul 28, 2010 3:12:55	An interesting note here.  The Vistani Execrator paragon path based on the Vistani Heritage feat has an 11th level feature which allows you to save against Blind effects, even if they would not normally allow a save, but grants no healing function.  So, theoretically, if you had an 11th level blind character (due to whatever; eyes gouged out, ancient curse, inherent blindness) take the Vistani Execrator PP, they could see again (you get to do this once per round I believe) but wouldn't heal any of their other maladies. It's a good way for a paragon level PC to be blind without being blind. Edit: Just reread it, appears it wouldn't work that way.  However if you're already a Vistani Execrator and someone gouges out your eyes, you still get a save to avoid being blinded.  So that could be a way to fluff it.  You were already an execrator when your eyes were taken, but never became blind. Again, a key point here is the difference between blind and blinded.  Someone who is Blind has the Blind keyword; a more-or-less permanent malady.  Someone who is Blinded has the Blinded condition, a temporary issue caused by magic, dirt kicked in the eyes, a tentacle blarg wrapped around their head or whatnot.
#27 Johnathan_Vagabond Jul 28, 2010 10:50:27	The text says "Whenever an effect would blind you..." since it doesn't differentiate between the keyword or the condition it technically works, especially if your trying to make a blind character.  Naturally this isn't what was meant to be, but it covers that ground admirably without really causing you drama.  You don't gain the blind keyword because you said, meaning you're not immune to gaze attacks or the blinded condition, nor are you subject to the penalties of the blinded condition (because you saved).  As a nice fluffy benefit, it becomes extremely difficult to blind you at all!
#28 Jman22 Jul 29, 2010 8:37:40	If there's a powergamer in your group, do not offer him homebrew. QFT. As for the matter at hand, I say give the player a really, really high perception (skill training, skill focus, high wisdom, what have you) and/or use a psionic class (monk fits really well for this) and justify being able to see as a extension of your powers.