A group of friends and I have been playing 4th Ed for about a year and a half now. We started with about 5 people but added 2 more later on and have played with 7 PCs since. We try to play once a week for about 2 hours and are fairly relaxed when it comes to people missing a game due to family/work/whatever.
Last week our DM (Also a good friend of mine) voiced his concern over the past few missions we had done. He said:
-Players were missing chances to do extra damage (one player made an enemy vulnerable to a certain type of damage that another PC was able to attack with)
-Players are messing around with their phones/playing with others instead of listening/concetrating on the game
-Players all agreed to come and play for 2 hours but are distracted.
I told my friend/DM that I thought the problem was that we just had too many people and that people are taking too long on their turn. It is not uncommon wiht the amount of people we have to sit and do nothing for 20 minutes while others are doing their thing. I also told him that we have been playing for a long time and we still have people that dont understand the rules or argue with the DM and other long time players on the rules...all of which is eating up our time.
When I told my friend this, he restated that all players agreed to play the game at that time for 2 hours a week.
After talking to my friend a day or so after that he said that his plan was to "confiscate" the phones when we played, that we would all put them in a basket and we would get them back at the end of the game.
With all this being said, my questions are:
-The group ranges from age 25-35, should we be offended that he would try this? Many of us have family and children and may actually need the phones.
-Is it not the DMs job to keep players focused/immeresed in the game?
-What can we do to fix this situation without pissing off either the DM or the players?
-Is 7 PCs too much? What can we do to speed the turns along? No one likes sitting for 20-30 mins without doing anything.
Thanks in advance 
I don't think there's anything wrong with SOME table talk, texting, etc. when the heat's not on. And any DM who tried to confiscate my cell phone prior to the game would find himself short a player really quick.
That being said, 7 PCs is a LOT, and each turn needs efficient play AND efficient DMing. It sounds like your players are much to blame here.
IMHO, the "entertainment" job is shared by both players and DM. There are plenty of ways for players to interact with others (and entertain the others) when they're taking a turn. The players in your group seem to be missing these opportunities. Whether that's because they're self-absorbed, or because they feel "beaten down" by an authoritarian DM I can't tell for sure at this distance. But your DM criticising play tactics and confiscating cell phones suggests the latter.
I think your gaming group is about to implode.
Yes 7 players is alot. Yes doing nothing for 20 minutes sucks. (That means what? You get like 2 turns per person in a session? Ouch.) Yes you obviously need to speed up combat. (Using a timer might me helpful. Give peoplea set amount of time to figure out what to do, it'll force them to pay attention and think while it's not their turn.)
But I have to say it sounds like your DM is beeing a dick about it. Sorry but I think DeadCarpenter is right, sounds like your group is about to implode.
This was a problem for one of my groups - til I decided that player actions have in-game consequences for characters. I ruled that while a phone is out, that PC is granting combat advantage.
There are exceptions to this, of course - if you come to the game and tell me your kid is sick, then I'm not going to penalize you for it. But if you're texting or playing another game, then yeah - I'm going to have a problem with it.
Our games have gotten better as a result.
Two solutions:
- The DM should ask for assistance in combat. Have one person track initiative, one person track status effects, etc. They'd be more engaged if they have something to do during the waiting period.
- Time each player's turn. If a decision doesn't get made within two minutes of the player's turn coming around, dice have been rolled, etc. then the player loses his/her turn. I'm sure people will get all up in arms about this, but if there's 7 people, 2 hours, then extreme measures need to be undertaken.
Constantly checking/texting on your phone during a game is as rude as talking on it at a Movie theater. Save it for break time.
On speed: There is a big thread around here somewhere on speeding up games, but the single greatest contributor to slowing down a game is the players themselves. Everyone not paying attention actually makes this problem worse as they have no idea what's going on and then have to take the time to figure out what they missed. I would suggest that when a player's turn in the initiative is called out, or however you do it, the player whose turn comes after is notified as well so they can start planning their move. When our group is at its best, a players turn will take 1-2 minutes total. Going through rounds that fast also helps keep attention focused.
On attention: Yes the DM tries to keep players focused, but it is not his/her job alone. Players need to pay attention as well. Quite frankly, in the middle of combat there is a limit to what a DM can do.
On arguing: Some groups like to argue, but it sound like your group is doing it a lot. While you can't force other people to do anything, there is a certain level of understanding required by any game, not just DnD. While reading the PHB from cover to cover is unnecessary, everyone at the table should understand the 10-20 pages that directly relate to combat. If someone can't even make that level of investment in the game, perhaps it is not for them.
The DM has also lost control of the table, and he needs to try different management techniques. Players who can't decide on what to do should forfeit their turn after a couple of minutes. Just make sure everyone is aware of this before implementing it. If someone can stay on their cell and still make a rapid decision for their character, then so be it. Also, like mentioned above, the DM should share the burden. Have a player keep initiative. Make sure the player has looked up the rule they intend to use and be ready to explain how they want to use it.
20 minutes between turns is what happens when there are 8 people at the table, so the players need to recognize every gets a fair share and they also have to recognize that time is of the essence and they need to be ready on their go. 20 minutes is plenty to have 3 or 4 options ready for when their rolls come around.
It is not the DMs job to keep the players fully immersed. It is the players' job to embrace the story and invest in it. Sometimes players have ADD and there is nothing a DM can do about that. The DM needs to recognize that 7 people are vying for attention and he needs to move things rather quickly. Immersion with 8 people participating is extremely difficult.
If the DM is burnt out at the end of the day, then your group should rotate DMs. Give your DM a break and let him play a bit. This also gives the other players the DM experience and hopefully they can respect the DM effort to getting a game together. RESPECT!
Really the best thing I can suggest is arranging for more play time or do smaller campaigns. No matter what, 7 people means there's always going to be downtime for 6 other people and in such a short time span I could see why they wouldn't be interested/engaged in the game.
A group of friends and I have been playing 4th Ed for about a year and a half now. We started with about 5 people but added 2 more later on and have played with 7 PCs since. We try to play once a week for about 2 hours and are fairly relaxed when it comes to people missing a game due to family/work/whatever.
Last week our DM (Also a good friend of mine) voiced his concern over the past few missions we had done. He said:
-Players were missing chances to do extra damage (one player made an enemy vulnerable to a certain type of damage that another PC was able to attack with)
-Players are messing around with their phones/playing with others instead of listening/concetrating on the game
-Players all agreed to come and play for 2 hours but are distracted.
I told my friend/DM that I thought the problem was that we just had too many people and that people are taking too long on their turn. It is not uncommon wiht the amount of people we have to sit and do nothing for 20 minutes while others are doing their thing. I also told him that we have been playing for a long time and we still have people that dont understand the rules or argue with the DM and other long time players on the rules...all of which is eating up our time.
When I told my friend this, he restated that all players agreed to play the game at that time for 2 hours a week.
After talking to my friend a day or so after that he said that his plan was to "confiscate" the phones when we played, that we would all put them in a basket and we would get them back at the end of the game.
With all this being said, my questions are:
-The group ranges from age 25-35, should we be offended that he would try this? Many of us have family and children and may actually need the phones.
-Is it not the DMs job to keep players focused/immeresed in the game?
-What can we do to fix this situation without pissing off either the DM or the players?
-Is 7 PCs too much? What can we do to speed the turns along? No one likes sitting for 20-30 mins without doing anything.
Thanks in advance
Yes 7 players is too many. I prefer 5 myself.
Taking the phones does tend to sound stupid. My suggestion, feel free to just ignore a players turn if they feel it is ok to ignore the game. What? you missed my turn?, nope I threw it away actually. But I still managed to attack your PC during the monsters turn, you have 3 HPs left by the way.
Frankly playing on a cell phone is a considerable insult to the host of the game (usually the DM).
I always have my Nintendo DS with me, I am NOT so rude though as to play with it during the game.
If the game sucks, don't play. If the DM wants you to play, they better provide the fun.
I regularly play a 3.5 game late at night on the weekends. I made my DM agree it was ok if my playing skill level sucked past the 10 oclock point. I often sit with my eyes closed merely listening. Heck I have no choice. I like the game, like the friendship, but I'm not 18 I'm 48 hehe.
A group of friends and I have been playing 4th Ed for about a year and a half now. We started with about 5 people but added 2 more later on and have played with 7 PCs since. We try to play once a week for about 2 hours and are fairly relaxed when it comes to people missing a game due to family/work/whatever.
Last week our DM (Also a good friend of mine) voiced his concern over the past few missions we had done. He said:
-Players were missing chances to do extra damage (one player made an enemy vulnerable to a certain type of damage that another PC was able to attack with)
-Players are messing around with their phones/playing with others instead of listening/concetrating on the game
-Players all agreed to come and play for 2 hours but are distracted.
I told my friend/DM that I thought the problem was that we just had too many people and that people are taking too long on their turn. It is not uncommon wiht the amount of people we have to sit and do nothing for 20 minutes while others are doing their thing. I also told him that we have been playing for a long time and we still have people that dont understand the rules or argue with the DM and other long time players on the rules...all of which is eating up our time.
When I told my friend this, he restated that all players agreed to play the game at that time for 2 hours a week.
After talking to my friend a day or so after that he said that his plan was to "confiscate" the phones when we played, that we would all put them in a basket and we would get them back at the end of the game.
With all this being said, my questions are:
-The group ranges from age 25-35, should we be offended that he would try this? Many of us have family and children and may actually need the phones.
-Is it not the DMs job to keep players focused/immeresed in the game?
-What can we do to fix this situation without pissing off either the DM or the players?
-Is 7 PCs too much? What can we do to speed the turns along? No one likes sitting for 20-30 mins without doing anything.
First thing: 7 PCs is a lot. Not "too much" necessarily, but "a lot".
Second: 20 min between turns divided by 7 PCs indicates *more than two minutes per turn*. This is CRAZILY slow. When your turn comes up, unless the turn before you has COMPLETELY changed the battlefield, you should know what you want to do and what you want to do to do it. This should take about 30 seconds, at most. If you need 30 seconds to think because the previous turn changed the battlefield completely, that leaves you needing one minute. If you are truly stuck and have to consult with the DM or the other players, 1min30s. Point is, two minutes on a single character's turn is TOO LONG.
Third: 2 hours is a very short session. You kind of need to buckle down and work to get some roleplaying, maybe a skill challenge, and an encounter, or two combat encounters and a bunch of roleplaying in.
Fourth: "Messing with phones" is an interesting phrase. My personal rule is that if you answer a phone at my table, that's totally cool and you get 30 seconds to determine if it's an emergency and/or tell the person you'll call them later - and unless you've popped up with "John, it's an emergency, please wait for a few minutes" by then, your character Delays and the game goes on without you. Sending/Responding to text messages gets the same treatment, but is a little harsher. Stuff like web surfing, youtube, knitting, etc is Right Out: I ask people to please stop that while playing, and feel only slightly bad about asking people to stop showing up if they can't play.
All my players are around 30, we all have families, we all have lives - but we also don't sweat things to hard when real life prevents us from playing, and so we also *try to make real life not be a problem*.
If you wanted to confiscate my phone during the game, I'd quit on the spot. My phone is my livelyhood *and* my connection to family. I don't take calls during game time often, and when I do, it's important. More important, by definition, than your game. At the same time, I don't have my phone out and I don't text. My attention is on the game UNLESS I get called, and if I get called, it's important.
If you wanted me to work without my laptop during the game, I'd *consider* quitting on the spot, but ask you why you wanted me to stop using it and ask you to give me a chance to show I could use the laptop without losing the thread of the game and without getting distracted. Because I *like* taking notes during games, and handwriting is.... inefficient. At the same time, I'm not chatting, or randomly surfing, or updating Wikipedia. My laptop is a gaming tool, used for gaming, with you - I want you to show me why it's a bad thing.
The point is, players should not need to *start* thinking when it's their turn. At every initiative, make sure whoever is next *knows* they're next. Encourage everyone to have a PLAN for their turn - that way, they only need to delay if their plan has been foiled. If their plan hasn't been foiled, they can run with it in minimal time. If OOG concerns have them, they Delay.
A group of friends and I have been playing 4th Ed for about a year and a half now. We started with about 5 people but added 2 more later on and have played with 7 PCs since. We try to play once a week for about 2 hours and are fairly relaxed when it comes to people missing a game due to family/work/whatever.
Last week our DM (Also a good friend of mine) voiced his concern over the past few missions we had done. He said:
-Players were missing chances to do extra damage (one player made an enemy vulnerable to a certain type of damage that another PC was able to attack with)
-Players are messing around with their phones/playing with others instead of listening/concetrating on the game
-Players all agreed to come and play for 2 hours but are distracted.
I told my friend/DM that I thought the problem was that we just had too many people and that people are taking too long on their turn. It is not uncommon wiht the amount of people we have to sit and do nothing for 20 minutes while others are doing their thing. I also told him that we have been playing for a long time and we still have people that dont understand the rules or argue with the DM and other long time players on the rules...all of which is eating up our time.
When I told my friend this, he restated that all players agreed to play the game at that time for 2 hours a week.
After talking to my friend a day or so after that he said that his plan was to "confiscate" the phones when we played, that we would all put them in a basket and we would get them back at the end of the game.
With all this being said, my questions are:
-The group ranges from age 25-35, should we be offended that he would try this? Many of us have family and children and may actually need the phones.
-Is it not the DMs job to keep players focused/immeresed in the game?
-What can we do to fix this situation without pissing off either the DM or the players?
-Is 7 PCs too much? What can we do to speed the turns along? No one likes sitting for 20-30 mins without doing anything.
Thanks in advance
You may have to accept one of the following
1. Your adventure is not what the players are interested in (you may have got into a couple of really bad literary ruts, that you over use).
2. Your style of presentation is to dull
3. You have 2 too many players (optimum amount of players is between 4 & 5, regardless of what the book says)
4. A lose of energy due to too much time elapsing between actions
5. The surrounding area is more interesting then your game
6. Lastly (& please don't turn this statement into an edition war), it may just be that your players are bored with the system. There comes a point where players who are not fanatical about 4E just lose all interest in the game. This usually occours when said player discovers that the system is not going to get in more indepth then it is right now. (i have personally seen this happen with many different systems over the years, the newest one being 4E).
-M
There have been several suggestions around speeding up combat, and I think that is an important aspect with such a big group. I would ask the players what they thought of the following rule: on your turn you have 30 seconds or so to decide what you are doing or you delay. Stress the fact that you can (and should!) be thinking about your turn while others are acting. This will hopefully get people to pay attention even when it isn't their turn, as they will be thinking about their next move.
Remind the group that the characters are a group of friends who depend on each other in battle. You would not appreciate it if the guy you depend on to watch your back was drifting off in the middle of a fight. They should all be interested in what is happening on other people's turns.
You also mentioned arguing about the rules. In my group, we have a basic table rule: no arguing about rules. For this to work, you need a DM that everyone trusts and is fair. After the session you can all look up rules about which you were unsure and had to make a ruling on the spot. Because honestly, it is just a game. So the DM says that when you take action A you grant combat advantage and that let the monster hit you for tons of damage? Unless your character died and isn't going to be raised, it shouldn't matter. So long as in that session the DM also had monsters taking action A grant combat advantage. So, instead of arguing, bite your tongue and just play the game and have fun!
For a long time my usual group was on average 6 players, sometime up to 9. It was a challenge but we had fun and made it work. I highly suggest that your next session should be a group meeting where you discuss the challenges and everyone who can't get on board with the group, can leave so that those who really want to play are able to.
Phones: My personal rule is no phones except for emergencies. Texting is straight out. I also take care to define what an emergency is. Kid is sick and needs medical care, that's an emergency. Hubby lost his keys, has already scoured the house for them and is going to be late for a paying job, that's an emergency. Your best friend just broke up with her BF. That's sad, but it's not an emergency. Wife wants you to remember to bring home milk. That's not an emergency. On call workers, emergency.
Anybody who wants to play should be willing to tell their family (before they leave for the gaming session) and important folks not to call UNLESS it's an emergency, and that they'll call when they're leaving for home in case something is needed.
Laptops: Although LordofWeasels made a decent point regarding why he should have a laptop, I don't like them in my games. First, they take up too much space on the gaming table (and I rarely play in a location where we have an excess of space). Second if they require somewhere to plug in that's a hassle. Plugs are usually at a premium - in fact my entire house maybe has three plugs that are available, only one of which is in the room we game in. LOL I can barely count on folks having dice and pencils let alone remembering to charge laptop batteries. And dangling wires can be outright dangerous. Last, I feel that hiding behind a laptop screen divorces the player from being actively involved. That doesn't even touch on non-game uses for the laptop, which would again be an absolute no-no.
Playing with others instead of listening: We all get distracted occasionally, but if the players are playing some other game, gossiping etc, on an ongoing basis, then they're not playing the game and probably shouldn't be part of the group.
Not ready on their turn: If they were listening/playing/concentrating, as others have said, they should know what's happening and it shouldn't take them more than 30 seconds to a minute to decide upon and describe their action. A timer may be the way to go.
DM helpers: With a group this big, that's not a luxury, it's a necessity. Someone should be tracking initiative (and the timer), someone in charge of marks and other temporary combat factors. Someone should be tracking HP/PC status, so that everyone is aware which party members need aid. That's the very least that's needed. A couple folks to track NPC names, history, treasure, etc, would be smart. Give those jobs to the people who usually spend their time jabbering and texting, and you solve half the problem right there. Preferably much of this stuff should be on a whiteboard where everyone can see.
Arguments over rules: This is a time-waster in smaller groups. With 7 players it's an outright disaster. Everyone should read/know the basic rules. If they have a specific rule, they should have the page open when their turn comes up. The DM will need to make quick rulings and if they want to argue about it, they can do so AFTER the session and the DM will retro-fit if needed. Also if you don't already have power cards, they're especially important in a big group. I also make power cards for rituals and other powers that the character creator don't print out.
Session time: Two hours is usually too short even for a group with 5 players. I'd recommend 3 hours minimum, 4-6 hours as preferable. We generally gamed on nights (usually weekends) when the majority of players didn't have work/school commitments the next day, and could stay up past their usual bedtimes. Not as easy if some of the players have young kids, but worth discussing. A move to 4 hour sessions might weed out some of the players, and give you a tighter group, but you want to make sure this doesn't penalize the folks who are actively enjoying and contributing.
Also in our groups we set an Arrive/Setup/Socialize Time as well as a Start Game Time, and a Wrapup/Go Home Time. Folks who want to socialize need to show up during the appropriate time. Making time for socializing is very helpful in keeping random gossip and socialization out of play time. It's even MORE imperative for large groups.
I agree with virtually everyone who posted that it's not ONLY the DM's job to keep players focused and immersed. That is the entire group's job, and if people are chatting/playing games/messing around on their laptops and cell phones, they're not only thwarting their own enjoyment, they're doing the same for everyone else. AND it's incredibly disrespectful of the hard work the DM puts in.
Is it possible that your DM doesn't have a compelling and fun story? Sure. But how would most of these folks even KNOW since they aren't paying attention? Creating the story needs to be a cooperative venture, built by both the DM AND the players.
So sit down with everyone and have a group meeting. (Or do it via email, but be aware that people tend to misunderstand each other over email.) Make up some rules for conduct and toss those who refuse to work with it.