Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 verbalkintify Feb 16, 2015 23:06:31	So a player in our group built out a 4e brawler class figher whose main tactics revolve around grabbing, knocking prone and charging.  They really like playing the character but recently ran into a situation that might cause them to roll up something else (not an easy choice).  We were fighting a group of ghosts and they proceeded to bust out a new grab inclusive power/utility.  The DM decided to rule that because ghosts are insubstantial, that they couldn't be grabbed.  The brawler player pointed out that there isn't anything in the rules about insubstantial items being immune to grabs or anything in grab that says it is such.  The DM response was that it didn't make sense conceptually wise.  We let it go there to get through the encounter but the player followed up later with concerns that this was going to negatively impact their character over the long haul.    The player provided options for RP reasons why it would work and provided samples but that didn't seem to sit right.  The DM is claiming that because of thematics the player can't grab anything that is insubstantial or a swarm.  I am guessing this will also lead to impacting anything with phasing.  Additionally they tried to draw a paralell example that the brawler wouldn't be able to realistically grab and drag a dragon on a battle field either because that isn't thematically realistic.  The brawler player made the point that grab applies to a class size larger than their character (medium) and anything smaller.  So if the dragon was Large or less they would certainly be able to grab them.  Not sure what we can do in this situation because the brawler player feels like the DM is nerfing their character even though it might not be an every/frequent encounter occurance.
#2 darkwarlock Feb 17, 2015 4:44:01	The DM is nerfing the character, against what the rules say they do. This is a game where characters can throw balls of flame and leap 30 feet without a running start. Where is the reality and logic in those? D&D, especially 4E, is not supposed to be an experience of verisimilitude. It's a game of action and superhuman feats. The brawler fighter is already at a disadvantage compared to some other fighter builds. It's silly for the DM to constrain the concept even further.
#3 Beoric Feb 19, 2015 19:02:41	As for the dragon issue, per the rules, you can grab a large dragon, but not a huge one.  EDIT:  this may not apply to grabs that are not initiated using the grab power.    If your DM needs an example of grabbing a large creature, point him toward steer wrestling.  I know from personal experience that you can grab a quarterhorse with one hand without halter or bridle, and that it may take more than one attempt for the horse to escape.  You can also bull rush one, btw.  Back when I was doing that sort of thing I was around 140 lbs, so, not massively muscular.  That is the problem with DM fiat in the absence of experience. Fighting something insubstantial is something none of us have expereince with, but you might point him toward the definition of "insubstantial".  Those creatures may have different qualities than he thinks; there is a reason why a sword still does half damage to them.
#4 Kazadvorn Feb 17, 2015 9:12:05	One of the things I had to get used to with 4e was that it's a game first... and not a simulation at all. That's why a player who's PC is a sprite can do just as much melee combat damage as a Goliath or Half Orc. And why a Halfling with ST 20 is just as strong as a Dwarf with ST 20.   So if there's nothing in the rules that say an insubstantial creature can't be grabbed or pushed or proned... then it can be grabbed, pushed and proned. Heck, even an Ochre Jelly or Gian Snake can be knocked prone, and unless I'm mistaken, so can a 'swarm'.   The trick is to 're-skin' the action to make sense...
#5 verbalkintify Feb 19, 2015 16:24:46	Thanks for all the comments and talking points. One additional question. Would powers that grab (i.e. grappling strike) be subject to the size limitation? DM is taking the stance that they are.
#6 baldhermit Feb 19, 2015 17:08:55	You DM has an awesome rules knowledge. Nowhere in the brawler section of the fighters class, nor in the actual individual powers is there any restriction on the targets size.   Also, as a quick skimming of the cmopendium, I could find no creature that has a restriction on target size when grabbing. Such restrictions do exist for example for swallowing, so WotC knows how to describe that.   The rules do what they say they do. I would suggest you sit down with this DM about this, or any other class you intend to play, and let him or her define what house ruled nerfs he intends to bring before you have your next session.
#7 verbalkintify Feb 19, 2015 17:41:13	In their defense our entire group is new to this (d and d nor just 4e). They are also a new dm. That's part of the reason I want to make sure I'm not overstepping my knowledge base. Until know we have had very little by way of issue and fun each session. That needs to count for something.
(Reply to #6) Beoric	baldhermit wrote:
#9 verbalkintify Feb 19, 2015 19:40:56	Beoric wrote:
#10 Zathris Feb 20, 2015 1:13:28	Yes, powers that specifically call out a restriction are subject to that restriction, powers that do not mention that restriction are not. Just because some powers that grab mention a size restriction does not establish precedent that other powers that grab also have a size restriction; in fact, it establishes a precedent that WotC writers intentionally left out the size restriction.   What it really boils down to isn't "doesn't it make sense?" nor "is it legal?", the question to ask is "is it unreasonable or unbalance the game?" And the answer is completely No. In fact, encouraging a player to play a Brawler style that uses Grabs actively makes the character worse and the party weaker because Brawler Style basically sucks.
#11 verbalkintify Feb 20, 2015 6:17:38	Might as well ask it while we're here. The grabbed monster (from a power not grabbed attack ) can still attempt to escape before the grab ends on the PC turn for grappling strike?
#12 Beoric Feb 20, 2015 6:49:14	RC p. 243:  "A creature can attempt to escape when it is grabbed. Other immobilizing effects might also let a creature try to escape."
#13 baldhermit Feb 20, 2015 8:27:59	Question as always is why. It can still smack you in the face.
#14 Beoric Feb 20, 2015 9:18:44	Assuming a fighter who marked you, the circumstances are pretty limited.  You would either need a power that removed marks, or a good enough reason to trigger combat challenge..
#15 Zathris Feb 20, 2015 22:22:30	Staying grabbed usually means going prone on the next PCs action (World Serpent's Grasp) and then remaining prone due to that one feat (while grabbed, cannot stand). This is assuming that a table with a Brawler also doesn't have a Striker that can nova something 3/4 down.